Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

The Specialist

Kidchameleon wrote: »

FFS, they are children, show some class.

They stopped being children when they committed this act, nothing but vermin now that should be put down.

FFred

Kidchameleon wrote: »

FFS, they are children, show some class.

Yes they are children. Scummy, filthy, nasty, foul children.

Boggles

The Specialist wrote: »

They stopped being children when they committed this act, nothing but vermin now that should be put down.

Let me guess you are keen gamer?

The Specialist

Boggles wrote: »

Let me guess you are keen gamer?

And? My interests have nothing to do with my opinion on these 2 scumbags.

Boggles

The Specialist wrote: »

And? My interests have nothing to do with my opinion on these 2 scumbags.

Oh you are?

I was joking in reference to people who blame video games on violence.

Anyway I'm pretty certain you are not a psychopath, I mean when you talk about personally executing children by hanging them from trees, that's you just showing off a bit, isn't it? Trying to be E-Hard to impress the boys?

Being a bit of an Edge Lord, correct?

Now if you were a close relative and you enacted some spur of the moment violence on them, that I would understand.

But you are not are you? You are just random guy on the internet that plays video games talking shít about executing children in a case that has absolutely nothing to do with you. Let me know if I left anything out.

The Specialist

Boggles wrote: »

Oh you are?

I was joking in reference to people who blame video games on violence.

Anyway I'm pretty certain you are not a psychopath, I mean when you talk about personally executing children by hanging them from trees, that's you just showing off a bit, isn't it? Trying to be E-Hard to impress the boys?

Being a bit of an Edge Lord, correct?

Now if you were a close relative and you enacted some spur of the moment violence on them, that I would understand.

But you are not are you, you are just random guy on the internet that plays video games talking shít about executing children. Let me know if I left anything out.

The naivety is strong in this one. Stop referring to them as children you absolute gob****e, children don’t go out and viciously murder a young girl then spin a web of lies to cover themselves.

Boggles

The Specialist wrote: »

The naivety is strong in this one. Stop referring to them as children you absolute gob****e, children don’t go out and viciously murder a young girl then spin a web of lies to cover themselves.

Of course they do, this case is pretty recent proof.

It is rare though.

Ken.

Mod-Boggles do not post in this thread again. Reason-Uncivil to others.

MrFresh

Sardonicat wrote: »

Venables woukd never engage in any meaningful way. Would never discuss the murder of James nevermind acknowledge his role in it. Thompson did.

In their case it really does seem to be divided evenly between nature and nurture. Thompson (and please, before anyone attacks me for defending what he did in any way, because I'm not! ) came from a background of mind boggling daily physical abuse to the degree that it had become normalised and obviously had damaged him to the degree that he did what he did. What's really disturbing in relation to his background is that Social Services KNEW what he and his younger sibling were being subjected to. They KNEW that he was already starting to externalise and show signs of deeply disturbing behaviour yet he was left in that situation with little to no intervention. In his case, the intervention he received while detained seems to have worked. I still think he should have served a number of years in an adult prison.

Venables? Born that way, I think. Throw away the key.

At the time of the murder investigation the Detectives believed that Thompson was the ringleader who lead Venables on. In light of how differently the two have turned out I've come across interviews with some of the Detectives who have since changed their minds on that one.

I think it was the other way around. Venables cried every day of the trial and asked that the little boy's mother be told he was sorry.

mrjoneill

spurious wrote: »

Does the law not say the sentences get reviewed at 18? I thought I read that somewhere.

No, but cant be moved to prison till that age. Its up to the sentencing judge when he want them back for review if they so require. Trial judge can just impose a sentence and walk away.

volchitsa

MrFresh wrote: »

Interesting parallel. If I recall, the boys were similar in their psychology. One was immature and not as intelligent. The other one was stoic and showed no remorse. He seemed more like Boy B. Venables was the first one and has reoffended multiple times. He has also revealed his own identity to people. He is a complete mess. We know nothing of Thompson. So did rehabilitation work or did he just learn how to commit crimes without being caught?

No I don't think that's a good description of what happened - one of the boys, Robert Thompson, was rather like boy A in that he wouldn't cooperate during the trial, he was from a dysfunctional family and there were suggestions that he had himself been abused. the other boy, Jon Venables, was from a "good" middle class family and was described as naive and easily led. He's the one who was later diagnosed as suffered from PTSD.

At the time, the psychologists went with that view, and believed that Thompson was the leader and Venables had followed, possibly partly out of fear of Thompson who was a much tougher-looking cookie.

Hndsight of course suggests something very different. Thompson is said to feel very guilty because he says that his crime saved him from a horrendous environment and gave him a good education. He's never been in trouble since.

Venables, on the other hand....

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that boy A is therefore like Thompson, I'm not. I don't think the two pairs of boys need to have the same dynamic going on between them for one thing. But I do think we need to be very careful about assuming that boy B is less guilty than A.)

volchitsa

MrFresh wrote: »

I think it was the other way around. Venables cried every day of the trial and asked that the little boy's mother be told he was sorry.

Yes, and the psychologists believed that he was genuinely remorseful, and as you said that he responded well to treatment. I suspect he was manipulating them all the time.

tayto lover

Psychologists believe any auld Shyte.

jobbridge4life

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes, and the psychologists believed that he was genuinely remorseful, and as you said that he responded well to treatment. I suspect he was manipulating them all the time.

At a certain point responsibility surely extends beyond the mere ignorant to those who permit the amplification of dangerous fantasies? If one ran a local paper and printed the ill informed ramblings of armchair detectives one'd be swiftly enough dealt with.

Suckit

I don't believe that both of these boys will be out by their 20's. One of them maybe. But not both, and not if they are dependant on a psychologists report, and if the psychologist making the report is any good.
I also don't believe Boy A is any less intelligent, he just may have had the want and willingness to go through with the action of events.
Boy B may have been more willing to watch.
I think they both may have been quite clever.
Boy A was stupid in the sense that he had his DNA all over the scene, but he may have been in some sort of blood lust psychotic episode. But nothing to tell us he was any less intelligent than Boy B. In fact Boy A may have orchestrated the whole thing, we have no idea.
I just don't believe for a single second that Boy B was leading her there without some sort of horrible plan that he knew about. I would be happy to see both locked away until their senior years.

Ken.

Mod-Don't quote or call out people that can't reply. Its unfair.

dudara

The Specialist warned for uncivil language. Please stay civil to others.

dudara

Dht

I have a couple of thoughts:
I think the gardai did incredible work, in particular the case coming to trial within 12 months.
Boy A when he appeared in court 10 days later was seen to be still limping very badly.. clearly Ana fought back very strongly....
This being the case and she was a tall strong girl .. superb swimmer .. I don’t believe Boy A acted alone. I don’t think it was physically possible for him to do all he did by himself.
A text 9 months ago from Boy A to Boy B indicated he wanted to kill her. Boy B brought her to the derelict house.
How convenient for Boy B no forensics.. clothes phone etc
Boy B if he had nothing to hide would imo opened up very quickly given the abs seriousness of the situation.. 14 yo dead, he called for her etc
The attack was absolutely frenzied.. 50 separate injuries.. to the SP 40 minutes to describe.. that to me suggests there was massive anger & vitriol behind the attack. I have heard rumours of a perceived grudge.
Ana her family & the parents of the boys have my sincere sympathies.

gozunda

Dht wrote: »

I have a couple of thoughts:
I think the gardai did incredible work, in particular the case coming to trial within 12 months.
Boy A when he appeared in court 10 days later was seen to be still limping very badly.. clearly Ana fought back very strongly....
This being the case and she was a tall strong girl .. superb swimmer .. I don’t believe Boy A acted alone. I don’t think it was physically possible for him to do all he did by himself.
A text 9 months ago from Boy A to Boy B indicated he wanted to kill her. Boy B brought her to the derelict house.
How convenient for Boy B no forensics.. clothes phone etc
Boy B if he had nothing to hide would imo opened up very quickly given the abs seriousness of the situation.. 14 yo dead, he called for her etc
The attack was absolutely frenzied.. 50 separate injuries.. to the SP 40 minutes to describe.. that to me suggests there was massive anger & vitriol behind the attack. I have heard rumours of a perceived grudge.
Ana her family & the parents of the boys have my sincere sympathies.

I would agree with most of your thoughts there but in the name of god what type of 'grudge' would elicit such an evil and frankly psychopathic attack on a young girl?

Lucuma

Not standing up for him obviously! But a few have said Boy B never cried or showed remorse. I think he did cry during at least 1 interview with the guards. We don't know if either boy cried during the trial.
I think we safely assume they were both crying at the verdict
As I said before I think B could be rehabilitated
Although his father would want to seriously cop on to help that happen though. After all his father is one of his main role models and if he's pumping his head full of ideas that he's innocent + has been wronged that's going to hinder any rehabilitation I'd imagine.
I wouldn't hold out much hope for A though

tayto lover

Lucuma wrote: »

Not standing up for him obviously! But a few have said Boy B never cried or showed remorse. I think he did cry during at least 1 interview with the guards. We don't know if either boy cried during the trial.
I think we safely assume they were both crying at the verdict
As I said before I think B could be rehabilitated
Although his father would want to seriously cop on to help that happen though. After all his father is one of his main role models and if he's pumping his head full of ideas that he's innocent + has been wronged that's going to hinder any rehabilitation I'd imagine.
I wouldn't hold out much hope for A though

Boy B ran Ana down repeatedly during his interviews and I have no hope for him. He’s just as evil as A and more cunning.
His father seemingly didn’t attend any of his interviews. I thought that very odd.

AngeloArgue

tayto lover wrote: »

Psychologists believe any auld Shyte.

Yes, to some degree.
In Psychology and Psychiatry, clinicians deal with what they have.
And often what they have is based solely on an interview with the person being assessed.
They are trained to take what people say at face value.

Dht

iAna was an innocent victim. the attack abs angry and frenzied.. psychopaths have no empathy ..sympathetic feelings .. they are described as “cold” .. it doesn’t neccessarily make them killers. but watching porn.. having over 2000 pornographic images (boy As phone) yes desensitizes to a degree but does this by itself turn you into a killer? The absolute rage demonstrated is off the scale . Nothing excuses what happened that day... 40 minutes after Boy B arrived at her house Ana was dead.. it was a planned execution. Nothing that happened that day could be described as “normal behavior” ....a 13 yo may “act out “ but what they did that day ... there is no explanation. A lot of the discussion has taken the form of how involved was Boy B.... I suppose where I’m coming from ... & I can’t get this out of my head is “WHY” ???? If I were Ana’s parent that is the qn I would want answered ... why did you do this to my darling girl ... is watching porn... having psychopathic traits the reason? Because if we don’t find the “why” .. this might happen again... what needs to change to try & ensure it doesn’t. In a few weeks ppl will move on..I just think we need to try and find out how & why 2 13 yo boys became killers.

SirGerryAdams

He was still limping about a week after alright which makes me think how Ana would have been able to fight back if she was attacked the minute she wentinto the room.

I would imaging it would have been difficult to kick and punch if she was getting hit in the face with a stick....

the other odd thing is the semen on the top....I would have thought the clothes would have been ripped off and semen deposited then so how would it have ended up on the top? Unless it was used to wipe away from Boy A himself..

gozunda

Adding a link for the Primetime Programme

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2019/0621/1056750-watch-ana-kriegel-trial/

Apologies if it has already been posted ...

Sardonicat

MrFresh wrote: »

I think it was the other way around. Venables cried every day of the trial and asked that the little boy's mother be told he was sorry.

He may well have cried during the trial. I'm not referring to his behaviour at trial. I was responding to a poster who aked if the therapy the boys received in detention significantly different given their different post release outcomed. During their time in detention Venables refused to ever discuss the murder. I'm baffled that he could have been recommended for release when his understanding of the event and his level of remorse could never be assessed.

Thompson did a great deal of work with the therapists . Is reportedly deeply remorseful and as posted above, struggles with the fact that his monstrous crime lead to him getting a stable environment, intensive therapy and an education.

Like I said before, not withstanding his progress and remorse I still feel he should have served time in an adult prison. He did brutally murder a toddler. I don't think Venables should have been released at all for the reasons stated above. I hope lessons have been learned from.his outcome.

As for A &B. Here's hoping justice is served and any treating mental health professionals keep Venables in mind when treating and assessing these 2.

Dht

When she entered the room she was hit by a plank which had nails embedded either end.. after disabling her she was dragged across the room towards the window so the light was better.. she was strangled by tape (given by boy b from his garage)... when she was found 3 fingers were inside the tape trying to get it off. She was struck over & over by the edge /point of a concrete block. My heart goes out to Ana... many would have been finished by being hit by a wooden plank with nails embedded..she fought back so hard.. the last thing she saw was a horrific mask towering over her. How her family & the boys family can go on ... I just don’t know

OwlsZat

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They showed not one ounce of remorse , not one ounce of guilt , not ounce of empathy towards Ana mam and dad . Not one single ounce of regret or even a tear of empathy . Boy B spoke of Ana with disdain and used horrible words about her even after her death. Both these boys will never be rehabilitated in my opinion

A 13 year old couldn't develop thoughts about how "slutty" or unwanted another adopted child had been. It feels like it was born at home. Horribly mistaken beliefs broadcast by parents to a thick child who took them all in and sadly acted on them. Dads court room venting further vindication that really he blames himself. I'd guess he was correct where he put the blame.

OwlsZat

Dht wrote: »

When she entered the room she was hit by a plank which had nails embedded either end.. after disabling her she was dragged across the room towards the window so the light was better.. she was strangled by tape (given by boy b from his garage)... when she was found 3 fingers were inside the tape trying to get it off. She was struck over & over by the edge /point of a concrete block. My heart goes out to Ana... many would have been finished by being hit by a wooden plank with nails embedded..she fought back so hard.. the last thing she saw was a horrific mask towering over her. How her family & the boys family can go on ... I just don’t know

I've heard from parents previously that anyone and anyone can get a total **** head. True or untrue? I feel its more
environmental? Dont be a **** parent don't have ****head child.

mrjoneill

Dht wrote: »

iAna was an innocent victim. the attack abs angry and frenzied.. psychopaths have no empathy ..sympathetic feelings .. they are described as “cold” .. it doesn’t neccessarily make them killers. but watching porn.. having over 2000 pornographic images (boy As phone) yes desensitizes to a degree but does this by itself turn you into a killer? The absolute rage demonstrated is off the scale . Nothing excuses what happened that day... 40 minutes after Boy B arrived at her house Ana was dead.. it was a planned execution. Nothing that happened that day could be described as “normal behavior” ....a 13 yo may “act out “ but what they did that day ... there is no explanation. A lot of the discussion has taken the form of how involved was Boy B.... I suppose where I’m coming from ... & I can’t get this out of my head is “WHY” ???? If I were Ana’s parent that is the qn I would want answered ... why did you do this to my darling girl ... is watching porn... having psychopathic traits the reason? Because if we don’t find the “why” .. this might happen again... what needs to change to try & ensure it doesn’t. In a few weeks ppl will move on..I just think we need to try and find out how & why 2 13 yo boys became killers.

Bulger killers

One kicked a baby into the face because there was blood on his shoes as the result. Beat baby with an iron bar across the head. Serious sexual assault on a baby. repeated punched baby & hit with bricks. tried to drown baby in canal. Spend that afternoon seeking to take a baby & made attempts on other baby's.


Were never really deprived completely of their liberty were on constant days out to shopping centres and sports facilities. Were released before prison age 18.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrkQe4tyJnQ