Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

MrFresh

shamrock55 wrote: »

The thing is they don't deserve rehabilitation or to contribute, they've contributed quite enough for one lifetime, you do that at 13 then your well beyond help

That may be so. But like it or not they will be out early in their lives, probably in their twenties. And while they may not deserve rehabilitation, we'll all be better off if they get it.

briany

MrFresh wrote: »

That may be so. But like it or not they will be out early in their lives, probably in their twenties. And while they may not deserve rehabilitation, we'll all be better off if they get it.

That is a concern. If they get out, you could be looking at one, if not two boys, with both an abnormal psychology and possibly physically hardened by their experiences in the juvenile and adult systems.

Since execution is no longer on the books, it's really a choice between locking them up and throwing away the key, or making damn sure that they are no longer a danger when they are released. Though it might sound a bit bleeding heart, the latter must involve some sort of rehabilitative efforts.

mrjoneill

briany wrote: »

I fully concur with the prevailing sentiment on this thread that the killing of Ana Kriegel was a crime of the highest brutality and senselessness and that the perpetrators should be punished to the full extent of the law. Not too much more I can add, there.

What I have been wondering, as a slight aside to the case, is how exactly the two boys, particularly Boy A, planned to get away with this horrible murder. What was their thinking regarding the aftermath?

A) Being arrested, charged and convicted did not factor into their plans. They certainly didn't treat these events as a matter of course. They didn't even appear to make much of an attempt to get their stories straight.

Per Boy B's statements to Gardaí, it appears that the attack and target were being planned at least a month in advance, so that rules out the idea of it being a prank gone wrong or a moment of madness.

I know that as well as being seriously morally deficient, they were also 13 and can't be expected to have much common sense, but I'd like to think that at 13, I'd have had an awareness of things like fingerprints and the fact that forensics can be used to link a criminal to the crime. Perhaps 13 year olds these days are even more naive than I think, or maybe these two boys, or one boy, had a monumental arrogance about the plan.

When teenagers engage in criminal activity they seldom think beyond it. Boy A wore gloves during the assault, we can presume it was to avoid his prints being found. We don't know about Boy B or what he carried in the rucksack that he deliberately took to the scene from his home. Boy A never penciled in being inured in the process. Boy A was never going to come clean on his involvement and it was forensics which convicted him. When he handed over his boots it was not visible to the naked eye Ana bloodstains on them, his other clothes were washed. Boy A mother asked the gardai taking away his boots that they be returned she was so confident that her little boy had nothing to do with Ana's disappearance. The boots were expensive Timberland. Boy B only gave a partial admittance of what took place after 2 periods of questioning failing in the first 2 days of questioning after much obfuscation and misleading. He only went so far as other evidence placed him in the frame. Boy A had his attack gear gathered up and hidden in his wardrobe where he believed it was safe. He did not pencil in his DNA being found especially semen found on Ana or her torn clothing or Ana blood on his attack gear because it was not visible. They may not have know of DNA or thought there were not contaminated.

As for common sense a 2yr old is aware its wrong to hit someone. There is no doubt they knew what they were doing was wrong and very wrong with the length of the denials they did.

mrjoneill

Suckit wrote: »

I don't believe Boy B was afraid of Boy A.

He stated it, Boy A was the guy doing the Brazilian judo and the Park ranger stated he though he was 16 of older. Boys A father stated he was more than capable of looking after himself. What I understand of Boy B he did not engaged in any sports but moped around looking at cartoons on his laptop and had no external interest. His father stated he was trying to make a man out of him to get him interested in sports.

darlett

abff wrote: »

I find the emphasising of the word children very inappropriate as it somehow humanises these evil creatures and implies a level of innocence that is clearly not present.

Absolutely. Implies that A and B are to be found on any other day playing with dolls and puppies or maybe out there playing tig or catch. These pair of lads could very likely reoffend and murder another child. I would be very content if my overly high taxes contribute to securing them in a cell until they pass away, whenever the hell that is. I would personally pop into a hardware store and but a short heavy chain for their necks.
I say this not only from a point of view of hatred, but also from love, that a heinous punishment befitting a heinous crime might still similar thoughts in the next potential perpetrators mind when they are planning to torture and murder an innocent child or adult.

shamrock55

briany wrote: »

I'd be more anti-death penalty these days, but if they get to Oberstown or wherever they're going, one of their fellow inmates might oblige on that front, or perhaps they'll even oblige themselves, should life there be too stressful.

So as a country we should just let other inmates or even themselves to do the deed, that would be OK then

pablo128

shamrock55 wrote: »

So as a country we should just let other inmates or even themselves to do the deed, that would be OK then

No.

But I personally wouldn't be complaining if another inmate took it upon himself to dish out a severe beating or even worse.

And realistically the only thing that could prevent it is every prisoner in Oberstown on 24 hour lockup, which isn't going to happen.

take everything

I posted before about wishing these scumbags be hounded for the rest of their lives.
Then reflected on it a few days later thinking that was harsh.

I just read some of the details of how they hit her with the edge of a concrete block above.

So yeah **** them. Hopefully they don't have a days peace.

And I have grave reservations (and anyone reasonable should imho) about them retaining anonymity given that they will just seamlessly integrate into society again (ha!) and, say, your daughter could end up marrying and having kids with these pieces of **** in ten/twenty years time.

briany

shamrock55 wrote: »

So as a country we should just let other inmates or even themselves to do the deed, that would be OK then

No, I'm just saying that's what could happen.

MrFresh

briany wrote: »

That is a concern. If they get out, you could be looking at one, if not two boys, with both an abnormal psychology and possibly physically hardened by their experiences in the juvenile and adult systems.

Since execution is no longer on the books, it's really a choice between locking them up and throwing away the key, or making damn sure that they are no longer a danger when they are released. Though it might sound a bit bleeding heart, the latter must involve some sort of rehabilitative efforts.

Locking them up and throwing away the key isn't an option though.

splinter65

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Luckily for these two children, this is not the case. They should be helped & rehabilitated with every resource we have so that they can one day contribute something back. A person wanting them dead, in my opinion, makes that person no better than them.

Helped? You have no empathy or sympathy for the bereaved parents of the dead girl. It’s a bit unnerving. They should punished, first of all,for taking the life of another child, in the full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong, They couldn’t have done anything any more evil. Ana deserves justice for this and hopefully, she’ll get it.
How?
They need to be segregated away from other people for a long time in case they feel the urge to kill again.
In this time,they need to be rebooted so that they know what is right and what is wrong. This, to me, will take at least 15 years.

FFred

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Luckily for these two children, this is not the case. They should be helped & rehabilitated with every resource we have so that they can one day contribute something back. A person wanting them dead, in my opinion, makes that person no better than them.

So, hypothetically, you would be more than happy if one of these rehabilitated ‘persons’ met and formed a relationship with a female from your family then?

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Luckily for these two children, this is not the case. They should be helped & rehabilitated with every resource we have so that they can one day contribute something back. A person wanting them dead, in my opinion, makes that person no better than them.

While I don’t support the death penalty, that claim is ludicrous.

briany

MrFresh wrote: »

Locking them up and throwing away the key isn't an option though.

Not in the literal sense, no, but maybe one or both of them could be repeatedly deemed unfit to reenter society as their case is reviewed down the line.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

briany wrote: »

Not in the literal sense, no, but maybe one or both of them could be repeatedly deemed unfit to reenter society as their case is reviewed down the line.

Yes. There are mechanisms in Irish law for that. I wonder though if the psychologist reports will see them as having psychopathic traits.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Does the reporting restriction stop the school itself talking about the case ie if they have an anti bullying program can they mention Anna or the perpetrators. I assume no.

Asd1234

<snip>

Mod:

the thread title is pretty clear - [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Don't make requests of that nature again.

I support the death penalty for cases like this.

Road-Hog

Have ana’s Parents asked for the death penalty for the boys/scrotes....!

Or rather what is their view in the death penalty would they like to see the boys hung drawn and quartered...?

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Road-Hog wrote: »

Have ana’s Parents asked for the death penalty for the boys/scrotes....!

How could they. We don’t have it. Even if we did I don’t think they would support it.

dudara

Road-Hog wrote: »

Have ana’s Parents asked for the death penalty for the boys/scrotes....!

We don’t have the death penalty in this country. Therefore, it cannot be requested.

Much as I find the crime abhorrent, I also find the idea of the State taking a life to be abhorrent. It leaves us with only two paths for these youngsters. Lock them up for life, with no possibility of release or undertake rehabilitation efforts in the (vain) hope that they can be released back into society. Neither of these are palatable but they are the choices we have.

Suckit

pablo128 wrote: »

No.

But I personally wouldn't be complaining if another inmate took it upon himself to dish out a severe beating or even worse.

And realistically the only thing that could prevent it is every prisoner in Oberstown on 24 hour lockup, which isn't going to happen.

https://www.oberstown.com/campus-stats/

• During May, there were 53 individual young people present on the Oberstown Children Detention Campus.*
• During May, 29 young people served remand orders and 25 young people served committal orders.
• Of all the young people on campus during May, 51 were male and 2 were female
• Regarding those on committal: 1 was aged 15; 10 were aged 16; 11 were aged 17, and 3 were aged 18.
• Of those on remand: 1 was aged 14; 5 were aged 15, 7 were aged 16, 15 were aged 17 and 1 was aged 18.

It will definitely be a shock to them.

I don't know about the background of these boys families, but assuming they came from fairly decent families, they will get some surprise when they realise they have to stay there for the forseeable future.

MrFresh

Deleted User wrote: »

I support the death penalty for cases like this.

Would you do the deed yourself?

Ash.J.Williams

Road-Hog wrote: »

Have ana’s Parents asked for the death penalty for the boys/scrotes....!

Or rather what is their view in the death penalty would they like to see the boys hung drawn and quartered...?

Firstly we don't have the death penalty and secondly they are educated.

Ash.J.Williams

gozunda wrote: »

I get the sense that the boys really thought their lies would be believed - that Ana was abducted / attacked in the park. Now maybe it is the case that both teenagers were used to getting away with telling lies to their parents and being believed and this set them up to think others would do the same.

What they didn't take into account that their victim would fight back and inflict injuries on one of the two boys and that the Gardai and others would see through the bull****e they had connected by way of an explanation as to what happened..

It's unfortunate that despite the evidence and testimony gathered by the gardai and the deliberations of the court - at least one of the boys parents still refuse to believe that their little angel could do anything of the kind.

I bet ana fought hard enough to challenge the narcissistic pr1ck...and therefore triggered him to use extra force

Kidchameleon

splinter65 wrote: »

Helped? You have no empathy or sympathy for the bereaved parents of the dead girl. It’s a bit unnerving. They should punished, first of all,for taking the life of another child, in the full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong, They couldn’t have done anything any more evil. Ana deserves justice for this and hopefully, she’ll get it.
How?
They need to be segregated away from other people for a long time in case they feel the urge to kill again.
In this time,they need to be rebooted so that they know what is right and what is wrong. This, to me, will take at least 15 years.

Of course I feel sympathy for Geraldine and Patrick. I am happy that the state has done everything we can for them and will continue to do so.

But...

These boys, A & B are still human beings. Of course they need punishment. But they also need help so that their lives are not completely destroyed. Theres no point in that. This amount of revenge porn is sickening. Also keep in mind, they have familys that are effected by their actions. Should they have to lose their child/brother/grandson aswell? Why should they suffer? I can fully understand and forgive B's dad's outburst in the courtroom. It must have been a gruelling process for him aswell.

A & B are just children at the end of the day, very misguided and broken. We need to help them rebuild their lives as best we can. That way everyone gets the most benefit - including the Kreigels.

Ash.J.Williams

Larsso30 wrote: »

If memory serves me right

Thompson was seen as the driving force behind the crime, the more evil of the two if you prefer, awful family home etc.

Venables seen as the follower, from the more stable family home. Softer almost

History has shown since their release that their behaviour is contrary to this, Thompson never been in trouble thay we are aware of
Venables the one who has been convicted multiple times for depraved crimes.

That makes Thompson the cold psychopath . Also the first child porn conviction looked to me like an attempt to go back to prison.venebales essentially handed the computer to the cops.

splinter65

Suckit wrote: »

https://www.oberstown.com/campus-stats/




It will definitely be a shock to them.

I don't know about the background of these boys families, but assuming they came from fairly decent families, they will get some surprise when they realise they have to stay there for the forseeable future.

Actually they both spent some time there last summer, boy a 2 months and boy b 1, waiting for bail.

mrjoneill

splinter65 wrote: »

Helped? You have no empathy or sympathy for the bereaved parents of the dead girl. It’s a bit unnerving. They should punished, first of all,for taking the life of another child, in the full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong, They couldn’t have done anything any more evil. Ana deserves justice for this and hopefully, she’ll get it.
How?
They need to be segregated away from other people for a long time in case they feel the urge to kill again.
In this time,they need to be rebooted so that they know what is right and what is wrong. This, to me, will take at least 15 years.

The professional consensus is teenagers are not deemed fully developed and redeemable. Retribution is very much the emphasis in adult crime but redemption is the emphasis of teenage crime.

McCrack

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Of course I feel sympathy for Geraldine and Patrick. I am happy that the state has done everything we can for them and will continue to do so.

But...

These boys, A & B are still human beings. Of course they need punishment. But they also need help so that their lives are not completely destroyed. Theres no point in that. This amount of revenge porn is sickening. Also keep in mind, they have familys that are effected by their actions. Should they have to lose their child/brother/grandson aswell? Why should they suffer? I can fully understand and forgive B's dad's outburst in the courtroom. It must have been a gruelling process for him aswell.

A & B are just children at the end of the day, very misguided and broken. We need to help them rebuild their lives as best we can. That way everyone gets the most benefit - including the Kreigels.

Geraldine and Patrick are her parents are you should have the decency and respect to refer to them as such. You previously used quotation marks when referring to them as mum and dad which is really quite egregious and no better and in fact worse than other children taunting for being adopted

Shame on you