Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

cj maxx

hawkelady wrote: »

As a parent , I make sure the son I raised would tell the truth !!! Those parents didn’t , and as such , they have failed as parents

Pure bs . You may teach them but they’ll do their own thing

humberklog

Candie wrote: »

Or, the cops came to talk about a missing person from his kids school and he thought nothing of it, or stop and wonder if his 13 year old kid was a murderer. So off he went to bed secure in the knowledge that his kid would tell them everything he knows.

Why would anyone be concerned about the police doing routine enquiries if a kid was missing? It'd be a big leap from there to wondering if his kid killed her.

No. It's from the father's own testimony. He knew Ana had gone missing before the police arrived and he knew the police arrived to question his son on Ana's disappearance.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

No. It's from the father's own testimony. He knew Ana had gone missing before the police arrived and he knew the police arrived to question his son on Ana's disappearance.

I'd assume they questioned all her classmates etc. I wouldn't assume that my kid was a person of interest, if he was at that point.

Maybe he's a lousy parent, maybe he isn't. We don't know.

Suckit

Candie wrote: »

For all he knew they were chatting to his wife. They were on the doorstep, which seems very informal.

I'm not saying it isn't lousy parenting, I don't know either way. It's possible he assumed his wife had it in hand and there was nothing for them to personally worry about.

All the parents are being held responsible here, and they haven't have the formality of a criminal conviction or their side of the story told. They might very well be awful people but they might also be decent enough sorts going through a different kind of hell of their own, there's nothing to be gained by pointing the finger in a direction we haven't a clue is warranted or not.

I'm not holding any of the parents responsible, I think these two posts are the only two that I have even referenced parenting in, but even if he thought his wife had it in hand, why not go out to them and see what it's all about?
If he already knew his son was the last to see her alive, why not invite them in and encourage his son to help them in any way he could?
Going to bed while they are still stood on the doorstep questioning his 13 year old with his wife for over an hour, is at the very least showing how involved in his sons life he is.

mrjoneill

Strazdas wrote: »

That would certainly explain his role of being there as a spectator instead of it being a two person attack on Ana.

It was definitely pre-planned and not something that slowly escalated. The pathologist estimated that Ana was attacked as soon as she arrived at the abandoned house.

I would imagine the same, Boy B paints a picture of Boy A grappling with Ana as if he was practicing his judo, but the forensics tell differently. As awful as it sounds I would believe Boy B led Anna into the house so she had no escape, into a semi dark room where Boy A was waiting for her with a length of timber and the first Ana knew of it was a blow across her face prob shattering her eye-socket. He then repeatedly beaten her about the head both back and front cutting deep into her scalp. She probable collapsed after that and we know from forensics she was beaten on the ground. We know from Boy B that Boy A straddled her tearing off her clothes and choking her with his hands while sexually assaulting her which prob was the ultimate goal since he was viewing so much porn and had such a collection of it. To think such a monster could be free in his mid-twenties is unbelievable and he could end up your neighbor and mine and not knowing it. Its hard to figure out such savagery. We know from the Bulger murder a 10yr old kicked a baby into the face as his shoe had the baby's blood on it and they repeatedly struck a baby on the head with an iron bar, all it seems with gusto.
And we have in the courts both Boy A and Boy B holding parents hands and hugging as if there was all one big mistake. Its incomprehensible the stark savagery kids can do.

iamwhoiam

humberklog wrote: »

I posted this previously on this thread and before the identity (and background) of the kids was known and this of course only relates to the father of boy B.


"The gardai came to the door of boy B the day after Ana's disappearance. The father had returned from work at 5 and the Gardai knocked at the door at 8. The mother and boy B talked to the gardai on the doorstep. The father passed them in the hall,at 9 noted his son and wife were still talking to the gards about Ana. He didn't stop to listen and went straight up to bed and went to sleep.
In the morning he had a brief conversation about it with his wife.

Now that is a sign of some pretty sh1tty parenting skills."

What I find just as strange is to talk to a Garda at the doorstep for an hour and not ask him or her in ? . It wouldn’t not dawn on me not to invite them in and sit down

Suckit

Suckit wrote: »

I'm not holding any of the parents responsible, I think these two posts are the only two that I have even referenced parenting in, but even if he thought his wife had it in hand, why not go out to them and see what it's all about?
If he already knew his son was the last to see her alive, why not invite them in and encourage his son to help them in any way he could?
Going to bed while they are still stood on the doorstep questioning his 13 year old with his wife for over an hour, is at the very least showing how involved in his sons life he is.

Or he works shifts and had to be up at 2am.

We don't know, that's the point.

If people are pointing fingers and blaming innocent people who raised their kids with care, and they still turned out to be savages, then they're adding to what must be an agonizing situation for them.

Not even close to what the Kregiels are suffering, or what poor Ana went through, but a hellish enough scenario all the same.

humberklog

Candie wrote: »

I'd assume they questioned all her classmates etc. I wouldn't assume that my kid was a person of interest, if he was at that point.

Maybe he's a lousy parent, maybe he isn't. We don't know.

Yep. We're all free to assume.

The Gardai were at the door of Boy B because he was the last person seen with her (by Ana's father). This was the first follow up call in the investigation, just over 24hours after she went missing. Boy B' s father knew Ana had gone missing before he got home at 5.

Candie

Candie wrote: »

I don't think it's that simple. I think it's easy and comforting to blame the parents because all we have to do then to stop kids being monsters is to be good parents. But some kids are monsters without bad parenting, and that's the scary truth. You can't always mitigate savagery, and reassuring ourselves that it's just a matter of good parenting won't stop outliers like these kids existing.

I don't know if their parents were good or bad, I don't know if they failed. Maybe they weren't great or exceptional parents, just average ones. Maybe the failure was nature, not nurture.

Lots of people have less than optimum parenting, it still doesn't explain why the kids went beyond the usual teenage trouble into the realm of savage rapist and vicious murderer.

When you think of Alexander Pacteau, the psychopath monster who killed Karen Buckley in Glasgow, he came from a well-to-do background, has well-functioning siblings, good schooling etc. It has been said that he was displaying strong antisocial tendencies from a very young age. Indeed, it does appear that an antisocial personality can occasionally come hard-wired from birth and without genetic or other contribution from either parent. It’s possible that some of these rare congenital cases could be caused by something that happened during gestation/conception (eg virus). However that would not be an excuse, there is always the choice to desist from what society and it’s governance tells you is wrong.

DrumSteve

Deleted User wrote: »

When you think of Alexander Pacteau, the psychopath monster who killed Karen Buckley in Glasgow, he came from a well-to-do background, has well-functioning siblings, good schooling etc. It has been said that he was displaying strong antisocial tendencies from a very young age. Indeed, it does appear that an antisocial personality can occasionally come hard-wired from birth and without genetic or other contribution from either parent. It’s possible that some of these rare congenital cases could be caused by something that happened during gestation/conception (eg virus). However that would not be an excuse, there is always the choice to desist from what society and it’s governance tells you is wrong.

Now there's a ****er who should have been put down.

volchitsa

Candie wrote: »

Or he works shifts and had to be up at 2am.

We don't know, that's the point.

If people are pointing fingers and blaming innocent people who raised their kids with care, and they still turned out to be savages, then they're adding to what must be an agonizing situation for them.

Not even close to what the Kregiels are suffering, or what poor Ana went through, but a hellish enough scenario all the same.

He came home from work at five. How likely is it that he'd be straight back to work 9 hours later at 2am?

I mean, sure, maybe there's an innocent explanation for his lack of interest, but on the face of it, as a parent, if your teenage boy is being questioned by the guards about a missing schoolfriend for an hour, it's a little odd not to be sufficiently interested to be present for most of not all of that time.

Apart from the fact that it's wise to be careful with what teens may get up to, you also don't know if he's being made a fall guy for someone else - I don't mean murder, but if she ran away and there were drugs or whatever involved, you'd want to be sure your kid wasn't in the fringes of something and that the more savvy ones might drop him in it.

Really very odd, IMO. Maybe if he'd been less detached from it all at the time, he'd have less reason to roar and shout at the guards when the judgement was handed down.

mrjoneill

Candie wrote: »

For all he knew they were chatting to his wife. They were on the doorstep, which seems very informal.

I'm not saying it isn't lousy parenting, I don't know either way. It's possible he assumed his wife had it in hand and there was nothing for them to personally worry about.

All the parents are being held responsible here, and they haven't have the formality of a criminal conviction or their side of the story told. They might very well be awful people but they might also be decent enough sorts going through a different kind of hell of their own, there's nothing to be gained by pointing the finger in a direction we haven't a clue is warranted or not.

For me Gardai calling to my house would be a big issue esp if it involved a missing kid that was last seen with my son. That would set all types of alarm bells ringing that Gardai thought it necessary to come to my home so late at night with an obvious big concern. While I would not be thinking my kid had killed I would be concerned that he was somehow involved in that party going missing. I would seek an explanation to why the Gardai sought him out. We should remember when Ana's mother found Boy B name through Facebook she had no address for him. It would appear she had no parent peer linkages that she could contact to find his address or number so she could drop/call around to see was her kid in Boy B house. Gardai found Boy B address from the pulse sys which may tell another story and this is prob of his father. Boy B nor Boy A had not previously come to Garda notice so it was prob Boy B father was in the system.

TCDStudent1

mrjoneill wrote: »

For me Gardai calling to my house would be a big issue esp if it involved a missing kid that was last seen with my son. That would set all types of alarm bells ringing that Gardai thought it necessary to come to my home so late at night with an obvious big concern. While I would not be thinking my kid had killed I would be concerned that he was somehow involved in that party going missing. I would seek an explanation to why the Gardai sought him out. We should remember when Ana's mother found Boy B name through Facebook she had no address for him. It would appear she had no parent peer linkages that she could contact to find his address or number so she could drop/call around to see was her kid in Boy B house. Gardai found Boy B address from the pulse sys which may tell another story and this is prob of his father. Boy B nor Boy A had not previously come to Garda notice so it was prob Boy B father was in the system.

That's a pretty big assumption. Lots of reasons any of them could be in that system.

volchitsa

Candie wrote: »

For all he knew they were chatting to his wife. They were on the doorstep, which seems very informal.

I'm not saying it isn't lousy parenting, I don't know either way. It's possible he assumed his wife had it in hand and there was nothing for them to personally worry about.

All the parents are being held responsible here, and they haven't have the formality of a criminal conviction or their side of the story told. They might very well be awful people but they might also be decent enough sorts going through a different kind of hell of their own, there's nothing to be gained by pointing the finger in a direction we haven't a clue is warranted or not.

No I can't agree here. Why wouldn't they worry about a 14 year old gone missing? Why does it just have to be about them personally?

The guards didn't have to be there to accuse the lad, they were trying to find the girl, and keeping them standing on the doorstep for an hour and not showing any interest in encouraging his son to help if he could seems to say something either about his relationship to his son or to authority, or both.

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

No I can't agree here. Why wouldn't they worry about a 14 year old gone missing? Why does it just have to be about them personally?

The guards didn't have to be there to accuse the lad, they were trying to find the girl, and keeping them standing on the doorstep for an hour and not showing any interest in encouraging his son to help if he could seems to say something either about his relationship to his son or to authority, or both.

Personally worry - worry that it's a bit closer to home. Obviously people worry about missing teenagers, just not in relation to their own kids being responsible for them being missing.

I'm obviously in the minority here. I'm not keen on pointing the finger when we don't know all the facts. It looks bad, but it could be innocent and they might well be sitting at home now, with their worlds in tatters around them and they'll almost certainly be blaming themselves too, even if it's not their fault or even close to it.

We just don't know for sure.

mrjoneill

humberklog wrote: »

Yep. We're all free to assume.

The Gardai were at the door of Boy B because he was the last person seen with her (by Ana's father). This was the first follow up call in the investigation, just over 24hours after she went missing. Boy B' s father knew Ana had gone missing before he got home at 5.

First indication for Boy B parents of Ana missing was Gardai calling to their house after 9pm, 5 hrs after Ana going missing. Gardai were back at his house the following morning at 8.30am and his father told him to tell Gardai everything he knew. It was Boy B mother that accompanied him to the Garda station that afternoon to make a statement. Boy A and his father were in the park that morning and Gardai were just only after been made aware of his involvement and did not recognize either of them. Strange Boy B or his father did not indicate this to the Gardai or Boy A father did not either. I presume it was Boy B parents appraised Boy A father to the why he was in the park that morning as they were aware of Ana being missing. I see a report of both mothers meeting while Ana was missing.

hawkelady

Grayson wrote: »

You think those parents raised their kid to lie to them?

They probably thought the same as you. And that's why they believed their kid.

Edit: I'm not saying you are a bad parent. I'm pointing out that they probably weren't bad parents either.

So , as a parent, you’d be happy for your son to say “ no comment “ over and over .. put up no defense whatsoever , and put the victims family through a court case ... for what ? You’re pathetic if that’s what you’d choose to do !!

Me on the other hand , if that was my son ... he’d be talking alright cause he’d know dealing with me would be a worse outcome than 12-14 yes in the slammer !!

I teach my kids to own their actions , even it’s a worse case scenario like luring a girl and murdering her !!! Take responsibility ffs. Boy a and b parents failed in this regard .. on the hope they would get off on a technicality... as I said , it’s pathetic

mrjoneill

Deleted User wrote: »

When you think of Alexander Pacteau, the psychopath monster who killed Karen Buckley in Glasgow, he came from a well-to-do background, has well-functioning siblings, good schooling etc. It has been said that he was displaying strong antisocial tendencies from a very young age. Indeed, it does appear that an antisocial personality can occasionally come hard-wired from birth and without genetic or other contribution from either parent. It’s possible that some of these rare congenital cases could be caused by something that happened during gestation/conception (eg virus). However that would not be an excuse, there is always the choice to desist from what society and it’s governance tells you is wrong.

He was expelled from his school and it would seem from reports from his classmates at the time he stood out big time. I don't think he exhibited any violent tenancies at that time but rather it was his aloofness and his capacity to shock. It would seem he thrived on the latter. But there was no indications he would turn into a violent monster. Aaron Campbell another Scottish teenage child killer is another case in point. When he was 15 he abducted and savagely and brutally murdered a little 6yr old incl a horrific sex attack. He was an A student with a girl-friend and loads of friends. But what is common with him and Boy A is both were acting out ghoulish characters. Boy B thought that Boy A mask was so cool in questioning and Boy A wore it in the attack on Ana.

splinter65

El_Bee wrote: »

We have non-stop anti-bullying campaigns for decades now, and children are still committing suicide in relation to the bullying they receive, it's no big leap to correlate the continued rise in bullying with the inability to expel or even suspend bullies from schools.

Bullying has always been there and always will. It’s not new at all. And no one was expelled suspended or anything else.
What we have to investigate with urgency is why children and young people are now taking their own lives because of bullying.
They didn’t used to do that at all.

briany

splinter65 wrote: »

Bullying has always been there and always will. It’s not new at all. And no one was expelled suspended or anything else.
What we have to investigate with urgency is why children and young people are now taking their own lives because of bullying.
They didn’t used to do that at all.

I can see that discussion going down the route of how thick a skin kids have these days vs. in the old days, to be countered with the assertion that organised bullying via social media is a new thing.

splinter65

mrjoneill wrote: »

He was expelled from his school and it would seem from reports from his classmates at the time he stood out big time. I don't think he exhibited any violent tenancies at that time but rather it was his aloofness and his capacity to shock. It would seem he thrived on the latter. But there was no indications he would turn into a violent monster. Alesha MacPhail another Scottish teenage child killer is another case in point. When he was 15 he abducted and savagely and brutally murdered a little 6yr old incl a horrific sex attack. He was an A student with a girl-friend and loads of friends. But what is common with him and Boy A is both were acting out ghoulish characters. Boy B thought that Boy A mask was so cool in questioning and Boy A wore it in the attack on Ana.

Can you edit this post please because Alesha Mc Phail is the 6 year old victim of Aaron Campbell convicted murderer , not the killer.

RoryMac

I found this part of the Irish Times overview of the trial & investigation interesting "As for Boy B, several witnesses gave evidence that he was unusually bright. He excelled at primary school, despite a lack of focus on academics in his home."

Certainly hints all was not good in the Boy B household

mrjoneill

humberklog wrote: »

No. It's from the father's own testimony. He knew Ana had gone missing before the police arrived and he knew the police arrived to question his son on Ana's disappearance.

I don't think that is correct, what I understand Boy B father only became aware about Ana missing was the call that night to his house by Gardai. He had come home from work and was watching a game on TV when his son came in. He asked his son to join him who was in his room watching cartoons but he refused. It was in the morning he made inquiries and he stated he was amused when he heard from his son it was a boy-girl thing. He stated he did not allocate any sinister motive to it. It was later that day he became aware of the allegation of Boy A being attacked and being injured that he felt the coincidence was suspect. He said he became alarmed when he inquired to the nature of Boy A injuries to find they were mostly bruising to his body and no facial injury. He also state his little boy was singing dumb, all he did do was to arrange the tango in the park. He also claims he phoned home the day Ana's body was found and his wife was in hysterics. He states his first awareness of his son being present in the house that Ana was murdered in was when his wife told him that he had admitted to it, this was on the second day of questing on the first arrest. He also stated he had been alarmed at the arrest and its implications.

splinter65

briany wrote: »

I can see that discussion going down the route of how thick a skin kids have these days vs. in the old days, to be countered with the assertion that organised bullying via social media is a new thing.

Having a 21 year old myself I can tell you for sure that the world is a lot more complicated and unpleasant now then it was 33 years ago when I was 21.
But this is compounded by the fact that there is no doubt that young people in Ireland today have much poorer problem solving skills, and don’t deal as well with either rejection or disappointment as we did.
This is mostly because they’ve had, in comparison, a very privileged childhood, strewn with treats and luxury items, and have little or no experience of the harshness and negativity that was part of our lives throughout school.

mrjoneill

splinter65 wrote: »

Can you edit this post please because Alesha Mc Phail is the 6 year old victim of Aaron Campbell convicted murderer , not the killer.

tks uuups

mrjoneill

splinter65 wrote: »

Can you edit this post please because Alesha Mc Phail is the 6 year old victim of Aaron Campbell convicted murderer , not the killer.

tks done

mrjoneill

RoryMac wrote: »

I found this part of the Irish Times overview of the trial & investigation interesting "As for Boy B, several witnesses gave evidence that he was unusually bright. He excelled at primary school, despite a lack of focus on academics in his home."

Certainly hints all was not good in the Boy B household

Don't make killers or those who assist killers. Most middle class come from a working class background. One may ask do kids get desensitized with violent games and violent animations. Its really scary the level of violence used by Boy A and Boy B not in any way suffering from its effect. He was normal the following day and up to his arrest until forced to admit bringing Ana to the house and present during her brutal murder. There is no evidence he ever wanted to talk about that event which would have all the symptoms of ptsd. Only concern he had was he was taking the blame. It was the same for Boy A only he though he was not even in the picture.

El_Bee

splinter65 wrote: »

Bullying has always been there and always will. It’s not new at all. And no one was expelled suspended or anything else.
What we have to investigate with urgency is why children and young people are now taking their own lives because of bullying.
They didn’t used to do that at all.

They've been doing it since the mid 90's at least, nearly 20 years of useless "programs" and kids are still being left adrift to fend for themselves, if you know any families where a child is being bullied, you'll know the school is absolutely useless no matter how many anti-bullying initiates they roll out.

Road-Hog

DrumSteve wrote: »

Now there's a ****er who should have been put down.

And corks most infamous of citizens Mr. graham Dwyer. Came for a totally respectable family by accounts and turned into an absolute abomination of a human........imagine if he had had access to the vile porn etc that boy A had....?

holyhead

Horrific to think what that poor girl endured at the hands of those two boys.