Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

FFred

<SNIP>

Play the ball, not the man

dudara

hawkelady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Before this gets out of hand, I am not here to blame Patric Kreigel, I am simply saying lay off B's father. It is easy to level blame on many people in this case, the school, the parents/guardians, the owners of that abandoned house etc. We could do that all day. It is A and B who are ultimately responsible, they knew what they were doing was wrong. That is who we should be focused on, not some heartbroken dad.

No I won’t. Don’t give a fig if he’s heartbroken .. I actually know of him and I really hope his life is turned upside down. Now, there you have it. You can leave now

briany

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Before this gets out of hand, I am not here to blame Patric Kreigel, I am simply saying lay off B's father. It is easy to level blame on many people in this case, the school, the parents/guardians, the owners of that abandoned house etc. We could do that all day. It is A and B who are ultimately responsible, they knew what they were doing was wrong. That is who we should be focused on, not some heartbroken dad.

I was just thinking that if this had happened in the States, a lot more would probably be made out of the 'satanic pledge' found in Boy B's room, plus the preference for heavy metal and horror movies. Here, it's almost an aside, because the boys would still have to have known that what they were doing was so heinously wrong, but over there, it would segue into some moral majority hand wringing.

Spanish Eyes

I just wondered if anyone thinks that keeping Gardai at your door for a while (an hour) is something most people would do?

I dunno, but I reckon I would invite them in.

Would be conscious of the valley of the squinting windows, if you get my drift, whether they were in uniform or not and I am guessing they were from the local Station.

May that lovely girl rest in peace now. No consolation to her parents and family though.

iamwhoiam

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I just wondered if anyone thinks that keeping Gardai at your door for a while (an hour) is something most people would do?

I dunno, but I reckon I would invite them in.

Would be conscious of the valley of the squinting windows, if you get my drift, whether they were in uniform or not and I am guessing they were from the local Station.

May that lovely girl rest in peace now. No consolation to her parents and family though.

I posted the same earlier on . Never mind the squinting windows but manners would ensure I invited a Garda in and offered a chair and a cuppa

splinter65

Kidchameleon wrote: »

AFAIK, Patric has not blamed or had Ill feelings towards B's father or vice versa. There has been plenty of ill feeling towards B's father in this thread though.

No I’m sure Ana’s father privately feels entirely remorseful for having turned boy bs fathers life upside down by letting his vulnerable daughter out on early on a bright summer evening to be murdered by boy b, when it’s clear that it was his obligation to keep her inside.
Anyone suggesting that boy bs father should take any responsibility for the vileness of his son is being ridiculous.
So would you not get that “we demand that Ana’s father apologize to the father of boy b” petition a whirl ?

TCDStudent1

briany wrote: »

I was just thinking that if this had happened in the States, a lot more would probably be made out of the 'satanic pledge' found in Boy B's room, plus the preference for heavy metal and horror movies. Here, it's almost an aside, because the boys would still have to have known that what they were doing was so heinously wrong, but over there, it would segue into some moral majority hand wringing.

If the boys interviews were unavailable, my guess is that the prosecution would have gone down that route a lot more. For example, one subsequent article mentioned that May 14th is doomsday in satanic calendar (was news to me) but I think that was never presented to the jury. A possible reason for not going down that route was that some classmates said the satanic club was nothing and the prosecution may not have wanted to put that to the jury.
However, if they didn't have the interviews, it may have been something they focused in more on.

splinter65

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No he was not obliged to lock her up but it would not be a good idea to let a teenage girl go out with a teenage boy whom is not know to you. Ask yourself this, would Geraldine have let Ana go out with boy B that day?

As Ana’s brother was able to identify that boy b was another pupil at the school who he could name, yes, with conditions as to a return time I think she probably would.

threeball

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is one aspect I find worrying and support anonymity. I have sympathy for the parents. For all we know, the boys lied to the parents too. I imagine it's a very traumatic situation for everyone involved. What would you do if this was your child. Do you think you would definitely act entirely objective or would some parental emotions override and blind you until the evidence slowly presents the truth. If your child continues tells you they're innocent, do you believe them. Will you be in denial. I'm not a parent so I don't fully understand these instincts but I've certainly seen them in action. I don't think people recognising the parents in the street is of benefit to anyone. While I wouldn't go as far as to say they deserve the same respect as the Kriegal's, they don't deserve abuse.

The parents heard him tell several different stories. They also had the book of evidence prior to the trial and despite it being pretty damning they still stood by him. Couldn't even be bothered to get the truth from him. 13yr olds will cave in to their parents once they're not being enabled. It was clear that both sets were enabling these scumbags.

So in answer to you question, yes I would be objective as I'd be horrified and disgusted if the same evidence pointed to my child. If he wouldn't confess and co-operate he'd be on his own and he'd soon find out what fear and loneliness was about just like that poor girl did.

LiamoSail

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Before this gets out of hand, I am not here to blame Patric Kreigel, I am simply saying lay off B's father. It is easy to level blame on many people in this case, the school, the parents/guardians, the owners of that abandoned house etc. We could do that all day. It is A and B who are ultimately responsible, they knew what they were doing was wrong. That is who we should be focused on, not some heartbroken dad.

But not heartbroken enough to prompt him in to getting the truth out of his son. The man should be hounded

tuxy

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

If the boys interviews were unavailable, my guess is that the prosecution would have gone down that route a lot more. For example, one subsequent article mentioned that May 14th is doomsday in satanic calendar (was news to me) but I think that was never presented to the jury.

May 14th 2021 was doomsday possibly in a satanic calendar the boy had created the only reference to that date and satanic calendar online links to this case. It's not mentioned anywhere else.

LiamoSail

Two kids of similar age were sentenced to 80 years each for the murder of one of their grand mothers recently. I always think the US justice system is far too unforgiving, while ours appears to go too much the opposite way.

I certainly hope the judge strongly considers the lack of remorse, cooperation and the need to protect the public from these evil bastards in his sentencing.

tuxy

LiamoSail wrote: »

But not heartbroken enough to prompt him in to getting the truth out of his son. The man should be hounded

By his own conscience or by people out to harm him?

Spanish Eyes

LiamoSail wrote: »

Two kids of similar age were sentenced to 80 years each for the murder of one of their grand mothers recently. I always think the US justice system is far too unforgiving, while ours appears to go too much the opposite way.

I certainly hope the judge strongly considers the lack of remorse, cooperation and the need to protect the public from these evil bastards in his sentencing.

Whatever the sentence is, Ana's family has a whole of life sentence to deal with, without parole and without their daughter forever more.

Victims need to be vindicated, not maliciously, but fairly too.

But we shall see what happens.

iamwhoiam

LiamoSail wrote: »

Two kids of similar age were sentenced to 80 years each for the murder of one of their grand mothers recently. I always think the US justice system is far too unforgiving, while ours appears to go too much the opposite way.

I certainly hope the judge strongly considers the lack of remorse, cooperation and the need to protect the public from these evil bastards in his sentencing.

Absolutley the lack of remorse and lack of any empathy or shame should be considered here .
I am of the opinion that both boys should be named and photo printed in rhe media at age 18 . The public should be protected from boys like this and young girls deserve to know who they are . Protection cannot given for them over the protection of our daughters or sisters or grandchildren

mrjoneill

briany wrote: »

I was just thinking that if this had happened in the States, a lot more would probably be made out of the 'satanic pledge' found in Boy B's room, plus the preference for heavy metal and horror movies. Here, it's almost an aside, because the boys would still have to have known that what they were doing was so heinously wrong, but over there, it would segue into some moral majority hand wringing.

If that had happened in the US there killers would be doing a min of 40-50yrs. And there is no escaping it. They would be getting out to a place for crapped out convicts to end their days. Kids do gun violence in the US and get big sentences but this is different this girl Ana was brutally bludgeoned to death over a period of time. And not only that we have one who partook in it by leading her to it, but also tried to cover up for the guy who did the savagery and this is portrayed as normal, "innocent" according to his father.

tuxy

As said before I wish making a family endure such a long trial after suffering so much already had consequence.
As it stands it was probably their solicitors that recommended the not guilty plea because there was nothing to lose by doing so.

tuxy

mrjoneill wrote: »

If that had happened in the US there killers would be doing a min of 40-50yrs. And there is no escaping it. They would be getting out to a place for crapped out convicts to end their days. Kids do gun violence in the US and get big sentences but this is different this girl Ana was brutally bludgeoned to death over a period of time. And not only that we have one who partook in it by leading her to it, but also tried to cover up for the guy who did the savagery and this is portrayed as normal, "innocent" according to his father.

But if this was the US we would have much higher murder rates so it's not all positives.

mrjoneill

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No he was not obliged to lock her up but it would not be a good idea to let a teenage girl go out with a teenage boy whom is not know to you. Ask yourself this, would Geraldine have let Ana go out with boy B that day?

I don't agree with that. Ana did nothing wrong, she was naive and very. Don't think any other girl of same peer group would be led along 3km through the fields to a derelict house close to the next village to meet another boy. And that is believing there was innocence to it. So we are to ask ourselves now that there justification in having open season on naive people. Girls & boys escape out windows all the time to meet up with others while their are believe to be studying or asleep. Its part of growing up. I would think Geraldine thought at most this boy was trying to make a fool out of Ana and did not want her upset.

mrjoneill

tuxy wrote: »

But if this was the US we would have much higher murder rates so it's not all positives.

Helped by the availability of guns

mrjoneill

tuxy wrote: »

As said before I wish making a family endure such a long trial after suffering so much already had consequence.
As it stands it was probably their solicitors that recommended the not guilty plea because there was nothing to lose by doing so.

Don't agree, legals will point out the obvious its up for the client to take it on board. There was no escaping Boy A guilt, the prosecution counsel did not even have to go there summing up it was so tight. But his client believed in his own innocence despite it. They prob got through to them in the end when post trial they wanted a manslaughter verdict put to the jury, which would never be accepted to the prosecution for such a gruesome crime. As for Boy B, he was sure of his own innocence. He accepted he did some wrong but it was on the misinformation scale, a quick slap on the wrist and he was free to go back to normality, back to his cartoons.

Hannibal_Smith

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I assume anyone criticizing the parenting skills of boy B's father for supposedly not caring what was going on when the garda was in his house the night Ana disappeared, will be equally as critical of Patric Kriegel. After all, he let Ana go off with a 13 year old boy whom he did not know & he did not know where they were going. Geraldine on the other hand, knew instantly that she should not have been with that boy. If Geraldine were at home at the time boy B called, Ana would be alive now. Why was Geraldine so much more in tune with Ana's life than Patric?

Christ!

tuxy

mrjoneill wrote: »

Don't agree, legals will point out the obvious its up for the client to take it on board. There was no escaping Boy A guilt, the prosecution counsel did not even have to go there summing up it was so tight. But his client believed in his own innocence despite it.

I find it difficult to believe Boy A felt he was innocent. If there was significant penalties for entering an innocent plea when the accused is very clearly guilty then his solicitor would most likely have given different advice.

gozunda

Road-Hog wrote: »

And corks most infamous of citizens Mr. graham Dwyer. Came for a totally respectable family by accounts and turned into an absolute abomination of a human........imagine if he had had access to the vile porn etc that boy A had....?

I'm not sure are you advocating free unrestricted access to porn for children or you are just taking the mickey there tbh...


That idea has already been dragged through the bog at least once before. From your previous post detailing the above - my reply

... we really dont know what Dwyer had access to or from where and in this case we are dealing with a child / teenager with evident links to online sadistic and violent pornography and sexual assault and murder.

Whatever the case - I doubt anyone would want their child exposed to that type of content - and take the risk.

LiamoSail

tuxy wrote: »

By his own conscience or by people out to harm him?

I'm not advocating any sort of vigilante behaviour or violence, but he should feel pressure regarding his family's deceit

gozunda

tuxy wrote: »

As said before I wish making a family endure such a long trial after suffering so much already had consequence.

As it stands it was probably their solicitors that recommended the not guilty plea because there was nothing to lose by doing so.

Not always true. In the case of the murder of a young child Vincent Blackwell by an older boy in Dublin in 1971 - a plea of manslaughter meant that there was no opportunity for Vincent’s family to find out in court what happened to Vincent and why. Something that haunts the family to this day.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2017/0127/848151-wheres-your-mamma-gone/

As to your second point - the two perpetrators lose the opportunity to admit what they did and offer a sincere apology to the Kreigel family. Though to expect that from those two little scotes would be step to far imo

Road-Hog

gozunda wrote: »

I'm not sure are you advocating free unrestricted access to porn for children or you are just taking the mickey there tbh...


That idea has already been dragged through the bog at least once before. From your previous post detailing the above - my reply

Free unrestricted access to porn for children ......definitely the way to go alright.....

I can’t understand how you could come up with that from previous posts?

Is it just down to Boy A being unlucky with the genes he inherited......... was there way that he could have been prevented from evolving into the monster he became and what he ended up doing to the poor girl.....was there any style of parenting that could have ‘saved him’.......?

FFred

FFred wrote: »

<SNIP>

Play the ball, not the man

dudara

.

gozunda

Road-Hog wrote: »

Free unrestricted access to porn for children ......definitely the way to go alright.....I can’t understand how you could come up with that from previous posts?

From the sarcasm that somehow watching extreme porn is completely benign even for kids

Road-Hog wrote:

And corks most infamous of citizens Mr. graham Dwyer. Came for a totally respectable family by accounts and turned into an absolute abomination of a human........imagine if he had had access to the vile porn etc that boy A had....?

And this in a thread detailing how a 13th year old having in his possession large amounts of extreme porn and apparently acting out some of those fantasies ...

Road-Hog wrote:

Does watching excessive amounts of violent porn not de-sensitize your attitude towards it........is it possible to become addicted to porn including violent porn and leave what you see on the screen and never be tempted to act out with a female what you see in the porno....?

Road-Hog wrote:

Is it just down to Boy A being unlucky with the genes he inherited......... was there way that he could have been prevented from evolving into the monster he became and what he ended up doing to the poor girl.....was there any style of parenting that could have ‘saved him’.......?

The porn and unfettered internet access certainly didnt help.

TCDStudent1

tuxy wrote: »

May 14th 2021 was doomsday possibly in a satanic calendar the boy had created the only reference to that date and satanic calendar online links to this case. It's not mentioned anywhere else.

Strange, the Irish Times article states that the guard put the date into google and was directed to a satanic site mentioning the May 14th date.