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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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Comments

  • #4622
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    They wouldn't have to name anyone because judging by some of the comments about A & B's familys, she would deserve to be missing for daring to be related to one of them "animals".

    They are animals. What they did to Ana Kriegel was barbaric.


  • #4623
    Road-Hog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭Road-Hog


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    They are animals. What they did to Ana Kriegel was barbaric.

    Very hard to argue otherwise. Is it possible to reform them through the prison / detention system.....?

    Is 👁 For 👁 and 🦷 for 🦷 not the way to go like 🇺🇸 ? It’s not an option in this state so not even worth debating.

    They should be deprived of their liberty for decades though. Don’t think they will have much to offer society ever when ever they do get out...!


  • #4624
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    LiamoSail wrote: »
    That's bollox. You're trying to trivialise legitimate criticism of the parents by drawing innocent relatives into it. Innocent relatives don't deserve that. Nobody is tarnishing them with the same brush.


    Nope, there have been posts in this very thread saying their family's deserve being forced to move. There have been posts saying their family's should be shunned. There have been posts saying their parents should be punished by the state. Its not "bollox", it is there for everyone to read.


    IMHO, if a member of A or B's family went missing, there would be no shortage of people who would secretly get some sort of sick satisfaction from it.
    LiamoSail wrote: »
    At some point you're going to have to accept the fact that people are horrified, with good reason, at the parents facilitating attempts by their kids to get away with murder.

    The parents done exactly what they signed up to do by becoming parents, supporting their child unconditionally. There is no "good reason" to be horrified at that.


  • #4625
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Very hard to argue otherwise. Is it possible to reform them through the prison / detention system.....?

    Is 👁 For 👁 and 🦷 for 🦷 not the way to go like 🇺🇸 ? It’s not an option in this state so not even worth debating.

    They should be deprived of their liberty for decades though. Don’t think they will have much to offer society ever when ever they do get out...!

    I think the American system is so harsh. But the problem with Ana's murder is, they haven't admitted what they did or explained it. They've left a situation with people guessing and Ana's family not entirely sure what happened to their daughter. So if there is no acceptance of what they did and no remorse then it seems to me like they're number 1 priority isn't dealing with the horror of what they did, its to protect themselves from a harsh punishment. And that doesn't seem right to me.

    If there's no acknowledgement on their part, how can they be rehabilitated? How do the professionals treat it? So if they're releast after 10/15/20 years, how do we know they won't do the same thing again? How can the process work?


  • #4626
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nope, there have been posts in this very thread saying their family's deserve being forced to move. There have been posts saying their family's should be shunned. There have been posts saying their parents should be punished by the state. Its not "bollox", it is there for everyone to read.


    IMHO, if a member of A or B's family went missing, there would be no shortage of people who would secretly get some sort of sick satisfaction from it.



    The parents done exactly what they signed up to do by becoming parents, supporting their child unconditionally. There is no "good reason" to be horrified at that.

    There is no requirement to support your child if they savagely kill some one.


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  • #4627
    RoryMac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    Yes indeed the pure savagery and calculating of it, led the girl to an abandoned house away from their own village to Lucan to put the blame there. I'm sure these thought the Gardai would be racing around Lucan looking for those responsible there when Ana's body was found. No doubt about is a lot of planning & scheming went into this. It was the last pinging from a mast in Lucan of Ana's phone switched the search there other than that her body may not have been found for weeks and there may be no forensics to be got. The fact there was so much protracted scheming went into it embeds their sheer evil. And these 2 are well aware of the enormity of their crime by their systematic denials and not one semblance of accepting the wrongdoing or empathy for Ana's family. I regard all the hugging and landholding in court as just a rouse at playacting innocence. While they were only 13 when the did the deed the nature of what they did defines them.

    I'm not sure about the stuff about the phone, Ana's dad saw she went with boy B and told the Guards that evening. Boy B told them he brought her to Catherine's park. The abandoned house where she died is at one of the entrances to Catherine's park.

    I'm surprised it wasn't one of the first places checked.

    None of that takes away from their crimes or guilt though


  • #4628
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    There is no requirement to support your child if they savagely kill some one.


    Should A & B's parents just have abandoned them so?


  • #4629
    RoryMac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Should A & B's parents just have abandoned them so?

    Boy A should have told Gardai everything, he had no defence and offered none in court. His parents should have ensured this


  • #4630
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    RoryMac wrote: »
    Boy A should have told Gardai everything, he had no defence and offered none in court. His parents should have ensured this

    Both of them should have disregarded legal advice?


  • #4631
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    RoryMac wrote: »
    Boy A should have told Gardai everything, he had no defence and offered none in court. His parents should have ensured this


    If he didn't tell the guards anything then chances are he didnt tell his parents anything. It has been discussed ad infinitum now why there was no point pleading guilty.


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  • #4632
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Should A & B's parents just have abandoned them so?

    I am in no position to tell them what they should do. Only someone who had been in their position can make a call on it.

    But to use words like unconditional and doing their job as parents is a bit of a stretch. There is no obligation on a parent to stand by your children. If they take an innocent 16 year old girl to an abandoned house, beat the living out of her, sexually assault her and leave here there like she was worth nothing.

    Cynthia Owen came out and publicly denounced what her son did and said she wasn't standing by him. Boy A and Boy B couldn't even plead guilty and one father verbally abused the court.


  • #4633
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    tuxy wrote: »
    Both of them should have disregarded legal advice?

    Yes, they should have.


  • #4634
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I am in no position to tell them what they should do. Only someone who had been in their position can make a call on it.

    But to use words like unconditional and doing their job as parents is a bit of a stretch. There is no obligation on a parent to stand by your children. If they take an innocent 16 year old girl to an abandoned house, beat the living out of her, sexually assault her and leave here there like she was worth nothing.

    Cynthia Owen came out and publicly denounced what her son did and said she wasn't standing by him. Boy A and Boy B couldn't even plead guilty and one father verbally abused the court.

    Cynthia Owen’s son is an adult. Parents have responsibilities to their children while they remain children. As horrendous as what these boys have done is, we can’t judge parents for standing by their children. So one guy was upset at the judgement, probably believing his son is innocent, so what. They didn’t run off to Mexico to try evade justice. Stop being so bloody sanctimonious.


  • #4635
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Cynthia Owen’s son is an adult. Parents have responsibilities to their children while they remain children. As horrendous as what these boys have done is, we can’t judge parents for standing by their children. They didn’t run off to Mexico to try evade justice. Stop being so bloody sanctimonious.

    Read the first line of my post again and then have a rethink about calling me sanctimonious


  • #4636
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Read the first line of my post again and then have a rethink about calling me sanctimonious

    Your first line is transparently just cover. “I don’t judge them but they SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS AND THIS AND THIS.


  • #4637
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Yes, they should have.

    What's the point of getting legal advice if you ignore it?


  • #4638
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Your first line is transparently just cover. “I don’t judge them but they SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS AND THIS AND THIS.

    No... My first line read

    I am in no position to tell them what they should do.

    Try reading it again, what's actually written this time ;)


  • #4639
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    tuxy wrote: »
    What's the point of getting legal advice if you ignore it?

    So you think Boy A told his legal team what actually happened and they said sy nothing to nobody?

    The forensic evidence against Boy A was overwhelming. They had a witness, Boy B, who put him at the scene of the murder. Yet he still pleads not guilty?


  • #4640
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    So you think Boy A told his legal team what actually happened and they said sy nothing to nobody?

    The forensic evidence against Boy A was overwhelming. They had a witness, Boy B, who put him at the scene of the murder. Yet he still pleads not guilty?

    Standard advice for a murder case in this country as there is no penalty for pleading not guilty.


  • #4641
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    No... My first line read

    I am in no position to tell them what they should do.

    Try reading it again, what's actually written this time ;)

    Well if you really believe that then you wouldn’t judge them for what they did, or did not, do.


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  • #4642
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    So you think Boy A told his legal team what actually happened and they said sy nothing to nobody?

    The forensic evidence against Boy A was overwhelming. They had a witness, Boy B, who put him at the scene of the murder. Yet he still pleads not guilty?

    Boy B did not appear as a witness.


  • #4643
    RoryMac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    tuxy wrote: »
    Both of them should have disregarded legal advice?

    Well it seems the legal advice amounted to 'we know he's guilt and the Gardai have more than enough forensic evidence to prove this so in my closing speech I'll mention he was 13 at the time'

    So yes they should have. I'd be surprised if in Boy A's case the lack of a guilty plea doesn't add a few years before he's allowed apply for release


  • #4644
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Well if you really believe that then you wouldn’t judge them for what they did, or did not, do.

    Now who's being sanctimonious.

    I don't judge them for what they did. I have questioned it, but that's not the same. I said that it was not a requirement as parent to stand by them. That's not saying they shouldn't have or i judge them for doing it. I gave an example where a mother didn't stand by her son. Regardless of age a son is a son. So I do question it.

    You've assumed what I meant and got it wrong.


  • #4645
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Boy B did not appear as a witness.

    Again, I never said he did. He gave a witness statement to the gardai saying he saw boy a hit her and taking her clothes off.


  • #4646
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Now who's being sanctimonious.

    I don't judge them for what they did. I have questioned it, but that's not the same. I said that it was not a requirement as parent to stand by them. That's not saying they shouldn't have or i judge them for doing it. I gave an example where a mother didn't stand by her son. Regardless of age a son is a son. So I do question it.

    You've assumed what I meant and got it wrong.

    And who are you to question it?


  • #4647
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    And who are you to question it?

    I'm a person reading about the case like everyone else :pac:


  • #4648
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I'm a person reading about the case like everyone else :pac:

    There is barely any information about either boys’ parents in the public sphere. You are “questioning” their actions on the basis of almost nothing.


  • #4649
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    There is barely any information about either boys’ parents in the public sphere. You are “questioning” their actions on the basis of almost nothing.

    Yes, I do have questions about them. But as I said earlier and as I said yesterday I can't put myself in their position to draw a conclusion. You've swanned in with your name calling unnecessarily.

    I do have little sympathy for Boy B's father and his selfish outburst in court, so slay me for that all you want :D


  • #4650
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nope, there have been posts in this very thread saying their family's deserve being forced to move. There have been posts saying their family's should be shunned. There have been posts saying their parents should be punished by the state. Its not "bollox", it is there for everyone to read.


    IMHO, if a member of A or B's family went missing, there would be no shortage of people who would secretly get some sort of sick satisfaction from it.



    The parents done exactly what they signed up to do by becoming parents, supporting their child unconditionally. There is no "good reason" to be horrified at that.

    Your version of loving a child unconditionally is woefully wrong wrong wrong...and kinda worrying in a way. But your in a tiny tiny minority so it’s not so bad.
    It is possible to love your child and support your child while at the same time letting them know when appropriate that their words and/or actions are totally unacceptable to you and that you are very disappointed. That other people have rights and entitlements and are deserving of respect.
    Your version of unconditional love is to let your child know, quite literally, that they can murder someone and you will continue to tell them that they’ve done nothing wrong and that you can fix it.
    Wrong wrong wrong


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  • #4651
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Yes, I do have questions about them. But as I said earlier and as I said yesterday I can't put myself in their position to draw a conclusion. You've swanned in with your name calling unnecessarily.

    I do have little sympathy for Boy B's father and his selfish outburst in court, so slay me for that all you want :D

    Name calling? What name calling?

    You can’t even imagine yourself in their position because you know almost nothing about them. You have “questions” about them. What questions? So far as I’m aware, they are not accused of any wrongdoing, and they fully cooperated with the investigation.

    You describe Boy B’s father’s outburst as “selfish”, but how do you come to that judgement? We’d have to concede that it’s at least possible that Boy B’s father believes his son is not guilty, or at least not guilty of murder. If that is the case, would his outburst still seem “selfish”?


This discussion has been closed.
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