Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

iamwhoiam

Cryptopagan wrote: »

She was a missing person at one point, so she was identified then. And you can’t really preserve someone’s anonymity after they are gone, since acknowledging a person’s passing is a public thing, the funeral, notices, all that. From what I’ve read and seen the media has struck a decent balance between reporting the details of her last hours, and giving time and space to acknowledge that she was a person and not just a victim.

I thought most of the media were quite decent . But details of Anas struggles etc were occasionally over reported . Just my instinct to protect a young girl I suppose would have preferred not to have such details public

McCrack

I understand reports are being prepared on both murderers which possibly will not be completed in time for the 15th next so sentencing could be deferred

pablo128

McCrack wrote: »

I understand reports are being prepared on both murderers which possibly will not be completed in time for the 15th next so sentencing could be deferred

Yeah and it looks like both sets of parents will be interviewed as part of it.
https://www.thejournal.ie/boy-a-boy-b-parents-4705267-Jul2019/

dudara

@gozunda & knucklehead6 - That’s enough. Stop it now.

If either of you have a problem with a post, use the Report Post function. Do not start bickering on thread.

dudara

careless sherpa

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The anonymity is for their families protection in the immediate. Not theirs.

Mob mentality is a real thing and according to several in fact many posters here, everyone in the area and surrounds knows the boys names and families and where they live.

It doesn’t take a mob. It just takes one deranged idiot to attack them on the street or in their homes.

We can’t let that happen.

I’m all for publishing their names once they’re released. They’ll probably be given new identities and moved out of the state anyways and people for the most part won’t remember the case. But let’s see.

Right now though the families protection and anonymity is paramount.

What state would want them upon release?

Vicarious Function

careless sherpa wrote: »

What state would want them upon release?

The answer to that is fairly obvious.

I guess the only way to secure an arrangement like this would be if we are prepared to return the "favour" by taking one or two equally undesirable individuals from that country.

How many murders have we seen already in this country which have been done by "Non-nationals" who have committed murders in their original country before coming here? Were we maybe sheltering them under a secret arrangement? Who knows!

tuxy

Vicarious Function wrote: »

How many murders have we seen already in this country which have been done by "Non-nationals" who have committed murders in their original country before coming here? Were we maybe sheltering them under a secret arrangement? Who knows!

Well it's either some kind of agreements with other countries or incompetence.
Freedom of movement is one of the fundamental rights of being an EU citizen but people can still be rejected from entering a country if they are deemed to be a danger to the public.

volchitsa

tuxy wrote: »

Well it's either some kind of agreements with other countries or incompetence.
Freedom of movement is one of the fundamental rights of being an EU citizen but people can still be rejected from entering a country if they are deemed to be a danger to the public.

It's also only FoM within the EU. People from other countries won't have come in under that rule.

(Unless of course they have EU resident status, but I assume a criminal conviction should have been flagged up when they requested it.)

8-10

Vicarious Function wrote: »

The answer to that is fairly obvious.

? Not to all of us, where are you talking about?

Omackeral

8-10 wrote: »

? Not to all of us, where are you talking about?

I'd assume "nowhere" is what the poster is referring to hence why we'd need to do an exchange to offload them.

8-10

Omackeral wrote: »

I'd assume "nowhere" is what the poster is referring to hence why we'd need to do an exchange to offload them.

Ahh yep got it now thanks, I'm a bit slow in the morning

Road-Hog

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Not at all. The legislation states clearly that the only circumstances in which anonymity can be removed is either to prevent injustice to the child in question, or when it’s necessary to apprehend the child (if they are at large). They included provisions when the Court could set aside anonymity, and the seriousness of any offense involved is not one of them.

What was the basis for publishing the names and pictures of Jamie Bulgers killers.....? I’m old enough to remember the case vividly but don’t recall the legal arguments put forward for revealing their names and faces to the world....!

abff

Road-Hog wrote: »

What was the basis for publishing the names and pictures of Jamie Bulgers killers.....? I’m old enough to remember the case vividly but don’t recall the legal arguments put forward for revealing their names and faces to the world....!

Differences between Irish and English/UK law, presumably? Also, it was a long time ago and the law may have changed since then.

tuxy

Section 252 (1) of the Children Act, 2001

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/252/enacted/en/html

I'm not sure if that replaced an older law if it didn't then it would have been legal to name children involved in a legal case before 2001.

Aaron Campbell who is a 16 year old who murdered a 6 year old in the UK last year was named but only after the judge made a decision that it was in the publics best interest.
Does anyone know if the judge in a case here in Ireland could make that decision?
It seams like a judge can but only if it's in the best interest of the child so would not apply to this case.

political analyst

Is a juvenile who is convicted of an indictable offence still entitled to anonymity when he or she turns 18?

8-10

Road-Hog wrote: »

What was the basis for publishing the names and pictures of Jamie Bulgers killers.....? I’m old enough to remember the case vividly but don’t recall the legal arguments put forward for revealing their names and faces to the world....!

It was a decision by the judge after the trial. During it they were known as Child A and Child B

After they were convicted the judge said "I did this because the public interest overrode the interest of the defendants. There was a need for an informed public debate on crimes committed by young children."

Many have criticised his decision and it's not typically done in the UK these days either.

Both Venables and Thompson later got 5-figure payouts from the European Court of Human Rights after determining that they didn't get a fair trial and because there was a push to increase their sentence

gozunda

tuxy wrote: »

Section 252 (1) of the Children Act, 2001

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/252/enacted/en/html

I'm not sure if that replaced an older law if it didn't then it would have been legal to name children involved in a legal case before 2001.

Aaron Campbell who is a 16 year old who murdered a 6 year old in the UK last year was named but only after the judge made a decision that it was in the publics best interest.
Does anyone know if the judge in a case here in Ireland could make that decision?
It seams like a judge can but only if it's in the best interest of the child so would not apply to this case.

How was it in the best interest of the child in that case do you know?

tuxy

gozunda wrote: »

How was it in the best interest of the child in that case do you know?

Sorry I think I worded that post in a way that was confusing.
In the case in the UK the guilty child was named as it was deemed in the best interest of the public.

In Ireland a child can be named if it's in the best interest of the child but I see nothing that would allow naming the child if it was in the best interest of the public.

Suckit

gozunda wrote: »

How was it in the best interest of the child in that case do you know?

Aaron Campbell had attempted to blame another person who was 18, and by doing so the 18 year old's name was printed all over media.

A lot of media organisations then made an application to the Judge stating that naming him (Aaron Campbell) would be in the publics interest.
They argued that it was unfair that somebody who could remain safe in the knowledge of remaining anonymous, could cause so much damage to the character of another that didn't have the same protection of anonymity.

In Scotland (where it happened) it is illegal to name anyone under 18 who is involved in the case.

tuxy

Suckit wrote: »

Aaron Campbell had attempted to blame another boy who was 18, and by doing so the 18 year old's name was printed all over media.

A lot of media organisations then made an application to the Judge stating that naming him (Aaron Campbell) would be in the publics interest.
They argued that it was unfair that somebody who could remain safe in the knowledge of remaining anonymous, could cause so much damage to the character of another that didn't have the same protection of anonymity.

In Scotland (where it happened) it is illegal to name anyone under 18 who is involved in the case.

Ah, I hadn't understood this bit before but the same can be done here. So it would seem the law is very similar in both countries.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/252/enacted/en/html

(3) Where the court dispenses with the requirements of subsection (1), the court shall explain in open court why it is satisfied it should do so.

abff

tuxy wrote: »

Ah, I hadn't understood this bit before but the same can be done here. So it would seem the law is very similar in both countries.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/252/enacted/en/html

Not really. If I'm reading that correctly, subsection (2) states that it can only be done if it's in the interests of the child.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The anonymity is for their families protection in the immediate. Not theirs.

Mob mentality is a real thing and according to several in fact many posters here, everyone in the area and surrounds knows the boys names and families and where they live.

It doesn’t take a mob. It just takes one deranged idiot to attack them on the street or in their homes.

We can’t let that happen.

I’m all for publishing their names once they’re released. They’ll probably be given new identities and moved out of the state anyways and people for the most part won’t remember the case. But let’s see.

Right now though the families protection and anonymity is paramount.

None of this is true. If it were then no adult murderer would ever be named as it might effect the families. It’s clear that the law is to protect the child not the family.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

tuxy wrote: »

Ah, I hadn't understood this bit before but the same can be done here. So it would seem the law is very similar in both countries.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/252/enacted/en/html

Pretty impressive voiceover on that website.

gozunda

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

None of this is true. If it were then no adult murderer would ever be named as it might effect the families. It’s clear that the law is to protect the child not the family.

^^ This. At the end of the trial I was somewhat ambiguous about the issue of the guilty parties being named in the interest of the public good at some future point.

Havng read the evidence and testimony I admit that my ideas on this issue has changed somewhat. Not only because the nature of the crime but the refusal of the the guilty parties to admit to their parts in the murder.

The unrepentant savagery of the attack and killing and the apparent use of excessive and brutal force (what is referred to as over-kill ) marks these individuals as cruel and sadistic murderers. The fact that both are so young makes this in some ways an even more depraved and remarkable crime

Whilst both are in prison or detention - I see no practical reason that their names be released, however once either boy qualifies for release of any kind - then the greater good should dictate that in the interests of public safety that these two boys names should be made public. And of that I am in no doubt

I accept that the parents may face opprobrium when and if this happens - but that will be no more than any other murderers family does in similar circumstances tbh.

iamwhoiam

Graham Dwyer , Mark Hennesy , Joe O Reilly , are all brutal killers and I dont recall their families ever having any issues or problems from vigilanties .

knucklehead6

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Graham Dwyer , Mark Hennesy , Joe O Reilly , are all brutal killers and I dont recall their families ever having any issues or problems from vigilanties .

In those cases there was overwhelming sympathy for their families, probably because they were grown adults. No one could try to blame their parents for mistakes they made while bringing them up

In this case people ARE trying to blame the parents, saying they are equally culpable.

abff

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Graham Dwyer , Mark Hennesy , Joe O Reilly , are all brutal killers and I dont recall their families ever having any issues or problems from vigilanties .

Not really comparable. When children do terrible things, people often assume that it was at least partly due to bad parenting. Whether this is true or not (and it probably is in some, but not all, cases), the fact that some people may jump to this conclusion puts their family at risk of reprisals.

Of course, in this case, it seems highly unlikely that there are too many people living locally (or who had a child in the school that Ana attended) who don't know the identity of the two boys.

iamwhoiam

abff wrote: »

Not really comparable. When children do terrible things, people often assume that it was at least partly due to bad parenting. Whether this is true or not (and it probably is in some, but not all, cases), the fact that some people may jump to this conclusion puts their family at risk of reprisals.

Of course, in this case, it seems highly unlikely that there are too many people living locally (or who had a child in the school that Ana attended) who don't know the identity of the two boys.

Is this proven to be be the case ? Has it happened in other cases ? Have there been attacks on families of child killers .I am not disputing it , I am just wondering .

Hannibal_Smith

I don't care who they are... I may have done initially and when they come out of prison I may like to know then, but it just makes everything about them. I want to know what happened for sure, but as to who they are, I don't really want to overly focus on them

Road-Hog

Is there enough evidence out there to give the general public the belief that the prison system rehabilitates the criminal ie ‘deprivation of liberty and couciling and therapy are sufficient..? Based on the rates of Re-offending that get reported the general consensus would be that it doesn’t.

The closest example we have to this case would be the Jamie Bulger one. Here one of the boys seems to have been ‘cured’ by his detention and ‘treatment’ and this surprisingly was the boy that was deemed to be the leader and cruelest of the two. The other guy venables has twice breached the terms of his realese and spent two additional periods in jail for possession of vile images.....he would be the equivalent of ‘animal B’ in this case.

The likehood is that in 12/15 years time this two inhuman animals will be assessed by the parole board and associated experts and deemed suitable for release and given new identities etc......probably accompanied by strict conditions that if breached will result in them being back in prison immediately.