Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Omackeral

Road-Hog wrote: »

Is there enough evidence out there to give the general public the belief that the prison system rehabilitates the criminal ie ‘deprivation of liberty and counselling and therapy are sufficient..? Based on the rates of Re-offending that get reported the general consensus would be that it doesn’t.

I think 1 in 3 re-offends. I work within the Prison Service and it's like a revolving door. You see the same faces in and out all the time. It's a habitual thing. They're not required to rehabilitate. The ones that do take up courses like Alternative To Violence are doing it off their own bat mostly. A lot of the time, they're only doing them to get the certificates, not because it'll fix them. A vast swathe of offenders are in there walking around exercise yards doing nothing but talking to other inmates about jobs and scams they've pulled. Ironically, they network with them and probably hook up together to do more crimes when they're out, essentially broadening their criminal horizons and coming out worse.

Road-Hog wrote: »

The closest example we have to this case would be the Jamie Bulger one.

Not a shot at you but the poor child's names was James. His family never called him 'Jamie'. His mother Denise has said many times over the years how hurt she was that the media selected this name for him, a name he was never known by. He deserves to be known by the name his family gave him.

Road-Hog

Omackeral wrote: »

I think 1 in 3 re-offends. I work within the Prison Service and it's like a revolving door. You see the same faces in and out all the time. It's a habitual thing. They're not required to rehabilitate. The ones that do take up courses like Alternative To Violence are doing it off their own bat mostly. A lot of the time, they're only doing them to get the certificates, not because it'll fix them. A vast swathe of offenders are in there walking around exercise yards doing nothing but talking to other inmates about jobs and scams they've pulled. Ironically, they network with them and probably hook up together to do more crimes when they're out, essentially broadening their criminal horizons and coming out worse.



Not a shot at you but the poor child's names was James. His family never called him 'Jamie'. His mother Denise has said many times over the years how hurt she was that the media selected this name for him, a name he was never known by. He deserves to be known by the name his family gave him.

Similar to ‘maddie’ being used by the media for Madelyn McCann.....?

Omackeral

Road-Hog wrote: »

Similar to ‘maddie’ being used by the media for Madelyn McCann.....?

Quite possibly, Maybe to make them sound "cuter" or something. I read Denise Fergus' harrowing book (James' mother) and she mentioned in it how it felt like they were almost talking about someone else. It's a completely different name to the one she gave her son.

iamwhoiam

Road-Hog wrote: »

Similar to ‘maddie’ being used by the media for Madelyn McCann.....?

Madeleine Mc Cann was her name . Apparently her parents never used Maddie .

Neyite

The tabloids do that. They often create a nickname for child victims. I think it's incredibly disrespectful.

Road-Hog

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Madeleine Mc Cann was her name . Apparently her parents never used Maddie .

Oops. I see I spelt her name incorrectly

Suckit

https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-contempt-of-court-4710081-Jul2019/

A JUDGE WILL decide on Monday whether a newspaper editor is responsible for a front page story during the Ana Kriegel murder trial that led to his newspaper being barred from reporting the court proceedings.

Associated News (Ireland) Ltd, owners of the Daily Mail newspaper, accepted its responsibility and pleaded guilty to contempt of court.

The contempt issue arose following the publication of a headline on the front page of the Daily Mail on 3 May, during the first week of the trial.

The headline read:
“CCTV shows Ana being led to her death”, between quotation marks.

At the time the trial judge, Mr Justice Paul McDermott, said:

“Such headlines are calculated to incite public outrage against the accused.”

He said such coverage was not appropriate in a criminal trial and instructed the DPP to initiate contempt proceedings.

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-daily-mail/20190503

mrjoneill

gozunda wrote: »

^^ This. At the end of the trial I was somewhat ambiguous about the issue of the guilty parties being named in the interest of the public good at some future point.

Havng read the evidence and testimony I admit that my ideas on this issue has changed somewhat. Not only because the nature of the crime but the refusal of the the guilty parties to admit to their parts in the murder.

The unrepentant savagery of the attack and killing and the apparent use of excessive and brutal force (what is referred to as over-kill ) marks these individuals as cruel and sadistic murderers. The fact that both are so young makes this in some ways an even more depraved and remarkable crime

Whilst both are in prison or detention - I see no practical reason that their names be released, however once either boy qualifies for release of any kind - then the greater good should dictate that in the interests of public safety that these two boys names should be made public. And of that I am in no doubt

I accept that the parents may face opprobrium when and if this happens - but that will be no more than any other murderers family does in similar circumstances tbh.

And in one sense the cunning of it, to lead an naive girl through the fields I presume so they would not be recognized to a nearby village to put the focus of investigations on that village. The barbarity of the act is something I cant get my head around for two 13 to do. The beat Anna to a pulp for their own gratification, one obv a violent sexual deviant and the other a voyeuristic smart-ass sadist. I just cant see how rehabilitation comes into the equation. I'm sure there was extended planning went into it prior. And the degree of denial for me indicates the level they will go to deny the wrong doing. From what I see of it Boy A, he thinks he has a right to attack to sexually abuse as of right. Yet these are on 13 has me wondering to their criminal abilities when wised-up to better avoiding detection. Anyone who did these deeds are totally warped. As for Boy B he did his best to demean & make little of a kid he led to her death. He had not one scintilla of empathy or compassion. All both of these did during the trial was show their fear for the unknown they brought themselves into.

mrjoneill

Suckit wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-contempt-of-court-4710081-Jul2019/


https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-daily-mail/20190503

Don't know what the fuss was & still is about.

Suckit

mrjoneill wrote: »

Don't know what the fuss was & still is about.

At the time the trial was still ongoing against the two boys. It could have had all sorts of effects on the case.
At that stage there was no proof as such, that was when she was being lured to her death.

tuxy

Exactly, such careless reporting can collapse a case like this.
There would be massive outrage if that had happened and rightfully so.
The paper knows exactly what it did wrong and has admitted guilt.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

She was being led to her death.

I personally think the Irish judiciary have too much power over this kind of thing, it’s like they’re mini little dictators.

mrjoneill

tuxy wrote: »

Exactly, such careless reporting can collapse a case like this.
There would be massive outrage if that had happened and rightfully so.
The paper knows exactly what it did wrong and has admitted guilt.

I presume the headlines was of what was stated in court as evidence. I don't see what is salacious or misleading in the reporting as that is precisely what Boy B did.

tuxy

mrjoneill wrote: »

I presume the headlines was of what was stated in court as evidence. I don't see what is salacious or misleading in the reporting as that is precisely what Boy B did.

Yes we know that now as there has been a ruling made on the case.
It wasn't a show trial it was legitimate where the accused are innocent until proven guilty.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

tuxy wrote: »

Yes we know that now as there has been a ruling made on the case.
It wasn't a show trial it was legitimate where the accused are innocent until proven guilty.

Wasn’t it reporting from the actual trial? Were the jury not sequestered?

tuxy

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Wasn’t it reporting from the actual trial? Were the jury not sequestered?

At that point boy B was innocent so it's incorrect to make a statement like the paper did.
I know it was a long trial but all the had to do was was wait and then the full details could be reported on.

I've no info on if the jury were fully sequestered.

tuxy

They weren't, they were sent home at the weekend and told to avoid media reports. So you can see why the judge found this reporting to be in contempt of court. It would have been a real challenge for the jury to avoid all media reports while at home.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/avoid-media-reports-jury-told-in-ana-kriegel-trial-38221120.html

Suckit

I don't think the jury were sequestered. I think I remember reading something about them going home.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that at the time.
I'm sure there are 'trial by media' cases that can be pointed to that show examples of why the newspaper was banned from the courtroom. It also effects the readers opinions on the accused. If either boy was found not guilty and the public had read stories with those headlines, it may have caused other issues.

There are plenty of reasons the paper was wrong.

Suckit

tuxy wrote: »

They weren't, they were sent home at the weekend and told to avoid media reports. So you can see why the judge found this reporting to be in contempt of court. It would have been a real challenge for the jury to avoid all media reports while at home.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/avoid-media-reports-jury-told-in-ana-kriegel-trial-38221120.html

I was sure I had read it somewhere. Now I know.

SirChenjin

There is nothing that could make the horrific murder of Ana Kriegel any worse, or the loss any deeper for her parents, in my opinion. Not to mention what they had to endure just over a year on from her death.

Every time that I glimpsed her beautiful smiling photos on the front of a paper, I thought of her parents and family.

I cannot even begin to imagine the void in their lives, having lost her, and in such horrendous circumstances. This case shocked the nation. For the Kriegels, this is their ongoing nightmare, to never see their child again, her whole future taken from her. They have to try to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives.

Sensational headlines had no place in the reporting, IMO.

8-10

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Were the jury not sequestered?

Pretty much never happens here

Strazdas

SirChenjin wrote: »

There is nothing that could make the horrific murder of Ana Kriegel any worse, or the loss any deeper for her parents, in my opinion. Not to mention what they had to endure just over a year on from her death.

Every time that I glimpsed her beautiful smiling photos on the front of a paper, I thought of her parents and family.

I cannot even begin to imagine the void in their lives, having lost her, and in such horrendous circumstances. This case shocked the nation. For the Kriegels, this is their ongoing nightmare, to never see their child again, her whole future taken from her. They have to try to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives.

Sensational headlines had no place in the reporting, IMO.

Poor Ana was desperately unlucky. Child murder is extremely rare in the Republic, whether by adults or peers.

The chances of this fate befalling her would have been into the millions to one. She should be alive now and living a normal life.

SirChenjin

Strazdas wrote: »

Poor Ana was desperately unlucky. Child murder is extremely rare in the Republic, whether by adults or peers.

The chances of this fate befalling her would have been into the millions to one. She should be alive now and living a normal life.

Absolutely agree. I have commented previously on the horrible twist of fate that put Ana in the path of those murderers, just by dint of the fact that they all started in secondary school at the same time. Horrific.

I am aware that the media had to obey certain guidelines and am glad that that the media, in general, were respectful of the child and her family. They stuck to factual reporting and (apart from the paper that was precluded from reporting on the trial) seemed to be conscious that lurid, sensationalist headlines would not serve any purpose.

RIP Ana. I hope that some lessons will be learned, and I hope that her parents and family find continued strength and support.

donkeykong5

Strazdas wrote: »

SirChenjin wrote: »

There is nothing that could make the horrific murder of Ana Kriegel any worse, or the loss any deeper for her parents, in my opinion. Not to mention what they had to endure just over a year on from her death.

Every time that I glimpsed her beautiful smiling photos on the front of a paper, I thought of her parents and family.

I cannot even begin to imagine the void in their lives, having lost her, and in such horrendous circumstances. This case shocked the nation. For the Kriegels, this is their ongoing nightmare, to never see their child again, her whole future taken from her. They have to try to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives.

Sensational headlines had no place in the reporting, IMO.

Poor Ana was desperately unlucky. Child murder is extremely rare in the Republic, whether by adults or peers.

The chances of this fate befalling her would have been into the millions to one. She should be alive now and living a normal life.

She would be if those two weirdos hadn't targeted her.

Road-Hog

Is it actually possible for Twitter/facebook/instagram etc to remove all the pictures/name references etc of boy A and B from its servers/hosts.......? Surely once image/text is down loaded or saved to an individuals phone/tablet or lap top then that’s it, it’s there forever......also is it possible for Twitter et al to inform the authorities of devices IP addresses and thus allowing the gardai to be locate a devices owner’s address etc and follow on with a summons and arrest for contempt of court....? If the above is possible then the gardai and courts will be very busy if they follow through in each case

tuxy

Road-Hog wrote: »

also is it possible for Twitter et al to inform the authorities of devices IP addresses and thus allowing the gardai to be locate a devices owner’s address etc and follow on with a summons and arrest for contempt of court....? If the above is possible then the gardai and courts will be very busy if they follow through in each case

Yes it would be very easy to pass on IP address, if people had used a VPN then it makes it more challenging but very few people do. You're right though the work load for the Gardi would be too high. The best I think they could do is make an example out of a few people and see if that has the desired effect.

BTW the journalist was fined €2,500 and Red FM €10,000 over the naming of boy A. Very lenient but it wasn't deliberate so that was probably the main factor in the decision on the appropriate punishment.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/journalist-and-radio-station-fined-over-naming-ana-kri%C3%A9gel-killer-1.3943023

8-10

Road-Hog wrote: »

Is it actually possible for Twitter/facebook/instagram etc to remove all the pictures/name references etc of boy A and B from its servers/hosts.......?

How do they know which names are referring to one of the boys and which were people referencing somebody else with the same name?

Road-Hog

tuxy wrote: »

Yes it would be very easy to pass on IP address, if people had used a VPN then it makes it more challenging but very few people do. You're right though the work load for the Gardi would be too high. The best I think they could do is make an example out of a few people and see if that has the desired effect.

BTW the journalist was fined €2,500 and Red FM €10,000 over the naming of boy A. Very lenient but it wasn't deliberate so that was probably the main factor in the decision on the appropriate punishment.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/journalist-and-radio-station-fined-over-naming-ana-kri%C3%A9gel-killer-1.3943023

What if you were reading Facebook comments or a Twitter feed and you happened to View/read the names..........surely you couldn’t get prosecuted for this....?

corpusvile

Twitter were inadvertently contributing to the problem via their algorithms relating to search engines. If an alleged name was put in,
another alleged name would come up in their related searches feature.

ETA: Twitter seems to have rectified the issue now though.

Monumental

8-10 wrote: »

How do they know which names are referring to one of the boys and which were people referencing somebody else with the same name?

The names of these two sub humans mean nothing to me at the minute but if and when they are released I think I have a right to know who they are if only to inform family and friends There is no reason to protect them at this stage ,perhaps the state will see them as safe to be released but in my mind they will always be murderers who are capable of reoffending