Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

sullzz

SirChenjin wrote: »

Disappointing if what is alluded to upthread is true that someone described as 'well connected' is tattling to all and sundry about things gardai may or may not have said, and whether or not some may have needed to take leave and require counselling.

That is nobody's business, IMO. And I certainly hope that the gardai involved are receiving appropriate support.

Actually it's more than disappointing, it's disgraceful - if that is true - that someone is breaking confidence in relation to things they presumably heard or know through their work / being 'well connected'.

I agree, and I think disgraceful is an understatement, to publicly say this, with the risk of Ana's family reading, on top of what they already have heard during the whole case is horrible.
But according to 'Suckit' I'm a troll .. my opinion doesn't matter.

Monumental

gozunda wrote: »

The only aspect of this horrific crime imo which could have possibly prevented these two psychotic scotes from doing what they did - would have been a proactive control of the aparent aggressive bullying and ostracization which Ana was subject to. In this the school are at least partially culpable imo. Despite meeting with her parents and being advised of their daughters difficulties regarding abuse being adopted etc - it would appear from the media reports at least they did little or nothing. The fact that the ongoing bullying by her peers was well known is in itself abhorrent and inexcusable. Hopefully this may be a wakeup for other schools.

Welcome to the real world , there is no support for any child being bullied in school ! Been there ,school did'nt want to know ,it harms their reputation !Don't get me started ,I could write a book on it

avalidusername

Monumental wrote: »

Welcome to the real world , there is no support for any child being bullied in school ! Been there ,school did'nt want to know ,it harms their reputation !Don't get me started ,I could write a book on it

Give it a go. Seriously, if you have free time then why not, there's nothing to lose. Apparently it's one of the things that psychics/mediums pick up on everyone because all think it but few say or do it. That'll be 40 quid please:pac:

Regarding the upcoming sentencing, as it's such an unprecedented case in this country I think your guess is as good as mine. I'd like to see a life sentence for both, time served in Oberstown then transferred to whatever prison on 18th birthday. Length of life sentence to be determined by the government at the time of each eligible parole period, with the final call on the Minister for Justice of the day, full accountability for their release into society.

There should be a lot of accountability towards the bullying Ana was subjected too also, not just the sexual stuff from males. She was a beautiful teenage girl just trying to fit in and find friends starting a new school.

A slagging from one kid might seem minor, but if the same kid is getting the same slagging from 5 people, it's bullying pure and simple. There's plenty of reports about the regular every day life of Ana and her love of dance classes etc.

I have yet to see a report of somebody saying "Hey, that's not nice, you're being a dickhead, leave Ana alone"

Stop moaning ffs

Something on oberstown just occurred to me.
Do school aged inmates still have to go to classes while there?
Surely their education doesn’t just stop? I know a couple of people with boys in there and I’ve never thought to ask.

sullzz

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Something on oberstown just occurred to me.
Do school aged inmates still have to go to classes while there?
Surely their education doesn’t just stop? I know a couple of people with boys in there and I’ve never thought to ask.

It is not enforced, they have a full education system within oberstown, the inmates can leave with a completed leaving certificate if they want, but they dont have to attend classes it they chose not to.

Stop moaning ffs

sullzz wrote: »

It is not enforced, they have a full education system within oberstown, the inmates can leave with a completed leaving certificate if they want, but they dont have to attend classes it they chose not to.

That makes sense thanks.
Adds to the ‘holiday camp’ aspect you hear mentioned about it.

sullzz

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That makes sense thanks.
Adds to the ‘holiday camp’ aspect you hear mentioned about it.

Yes, I'm sure some of the inmates who get sent there find it like a 5star hotel compared to what they get dragged up in.

abff

sullzz wrote: »

It is not enforced, they have a full education system within oberstown, the inmates can leave with a completed leaving certificate if they want, but they dont have to attend classes it they chose not to.

If the objective is to rehabilitate, then providing an education makes sense. In a civilised society, incarceration has to be about more than just punishment.

Having said this, it grates to think about all the time and money that will be spent looking after these two *******s (sorry, can't think of a word that adequately describes them that won't earn me an instant ban), but it has to be done. Otherwise, we are allowing ourselves to be dragged down towards their level.

volchitsa

sullzz wrote: »

It is not enforced, they have a full education system within oberstown, the inmates can leave with a completed leaving certificate if they want, but they dont have to attend classes it they chose not to.

I wonder what the alternative is if they choose not to. If it's sitting around playing games on their phones that's not acceptable, TBH. But I can also see that the teachers need them to be willing to participate for there to be any point in them attending classes.

abff

volchitsa wrote: »

I wonder what the alternative is if they choose not to. If it's sitting around playing games on their phones that's not acceptable, TBH. But I can also see that the teachers need them to be willing to participate for there to be any point in them attending classes.

Will they be allowed to have phones?

volchitsa

abff wrote: »

Will they be allowed to have phones?

No idea. Anyway, doesn't have to be phones - computer games/consoles whatever, was my question.

iamwhoiam

volchitsa wrote: »

I wonder what the alternative is if they choose not to. If it's sitting around playing games on their phones that's not acceptable, TBH. But I can also see that the teachers need them to be willing to participate for there to be any point in them attending classes.

Well the alternative to school should be scrubbing potatoes or cleaning the toilets . But my guess is this would be hard on the little darlings . We mustn’t upset the murderers

Suckit

A glimpse inside the place. Personally, I think it is an insult sending them to Oberstown.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-happens-next-after-boys-found-guilty-of-ana-kri%C3%A9gel-murder-1.3929775

While all young people sent there have committed serious crimes, the facility refers to itself as a place of “care” rather than detention.

The daily regime unfolds in a more relaxed and less secure setting than an adult prison; one where staff prepare cooked breakfasts for young offenders as treats and where playing video games, watching movies and being given the space and time to take private phone calls is part of the daily regime.

Young people are brought on day trips outside the campus, including swimming and to the cinema, and they also receive pocket money if their behaviour is deemed good enough.....

.....All of the young offenders have their own en-suite bedroom...
...“You have a TV in your bedroom that is turned off at 2am and can be turned back on at 9am,” the information booklet for each offender informs them...
.... “Multipurpose rooms” are also included in each unit where young offenders can watch movies, play video games and take phone calls in private.

Meals are delivered into each unit and the young criminals sit together at meal times. At the weekends staff prepare a cooked breakfast for the young people and at all times any special dietary requirements can be catered for....

...Breakfast is served at 9.30am each day and each young offender must then attend school on campus from 10am, Monday to Friday. Lunch is served from 12 noon to 1.30pm followed by another 1½ hours of school, which ends at 3pm...
..During the school day lessons are 45 minutes long, with four classes per day leading to the offenders sitting their Leaving Cert and Junior Cert....

Stop moaning ffs

That sounds like they all have to attend classes. Good. Not every kid on there is a write off to society. We have to remember that. It sounds cushy number in a way but if it was a harsh environment where they had manual labour or whatever they all wouldn’t come out reformed exactly would they.

It also sounds like a more structured safe and healthy environment than probably a lot of the kids in there are from in their families and home lives. That would make you wonder too

splinter65

gozunda wrote: »

The only aspect of this horrific crime imo which could have possibly prevented these two psychotic scotes from doing what they did - would have been a proactive control of the aparent aggressive bullying and ostracization which Ana was subject to. In this the school are at least partially culpable imo. Despite meeting with her parents and being advised of their daughters difficulties regarding abuse being adopted etc - it would appear from the media reports at least they did little or nothing. The fact that the ongoing bullying by her peers was well known is in itself abhorrent and inexcusable. Hopefully this may be a wakeup for other schools.

When you see boy bs father reaction to the jury’s verdict in court in front of the press and the judiciary and AGS then you can imagine how he would have behaved in the school principals office if called in there regarding bullying.
Teachers are threatened and tyres are slashed and a teacher I know had paint thrown at her front door after confronting the parent of a bully.
Teachers don’t get paid enough for the abuse they take.
IMO if a school is notified of a case of bullying it should be handed over to AGS immediately and the alleged bully suspended until an investigation has completed.

Stop moaning ffs

Goes back to my idea we create Anas law. Where zero tolerance on bullying in any form across the entire education system and that’ll soften the cough of the little bastard kids that do it and also the sh!thead parents you describe in your post will learn quickly not to act the bollox like that.

Eradicate it at school level and it would soon stop happening thereafter in work and elsewhere

Suckit

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That sounds like they all have to attend classes. Good. Not every kid on there is a write off to society. We have to remember that. It sounds cushy number in a way but if it was a harsh environment where they had manual labour or whatever they all wouldn’t come out reformed exactly would they.

It also sounds like a more structured safe and healthy environment than probably a lot of the kids in there are from in their families and home lives. That would make you wonder too

You could be right but I guess it also depends on where they go after they are 18 too. Either way, I'm sure we will hear of at least one of them again.
Darren Goodwin went to prison until he was 28, Oberstown didn't exist then, but not sure if he served any of his time served elsewhere.

When he got out, a prison source said:

“Goodwin is one of the most disturbed individuals that I have ever met. “You can do prison the hard way or the easy way and he always chose the hard way. He refused to engage in any rehabilitation services until just this year.
“He still has the mind of the child that he was when he was sent to prison. He has no personal skills and will really struggle to cope in the real world.
“He’d be the type of fella that I’d expect to see behind bars again sooner rather than later.”

Vicarious Function

splinter65 wrote: »

When you see boy bs father reaction to the jury’s verdict in court in front of the press and the judiciary and AGS then you can imagine how he would have behaved in the school principals office if called in there regarding bullying.
Teachers are threatened and tyres are slashed and a teacher I know had paint thrown at her front door after confronting the parent of a bully.
Teachers don’t get paid enough for the abuse they take.
IMO if a school is notified of a case of bullying it should be handed over to AGS immediately and the alleged bully suspended until an investigation has completed.

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.


Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

OwlsZat

Dead right Splinter.

Teachers should be free to teach classes. Long thought parents should have to pass some basic competency tests to qualified for raising children. Would save society picking up the pieces time after time. Worse they ruin the childhood of many with decent parents.

Oh but this is the teachers problem. Irony being the bullies parents are often the bullies of the previous generation. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, all trees shouldn't necessarily bear fruit.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all fail children but if you could prevent unqualified parents having children the ones that do fail, intervention though the parents becomes possible again.

Stop moaning ffs

Suckit wrote: »

You could be right but I guess it also depends on where they go after they are 18 too. Either way, I'm sure we will hear of at least one of them again.
Darren Goodwin went to prison until he was 28, Oberstown didn't exist then, but not sure if he served any of his time served elsewhere.

When he got out, a prison source said:

I wasn’t referring to the two little scum that did this. I meant all the kids in there.
I’d say these two are beyond help in any real sense especially now. Even if you could rehabilitate them completely, they won’t be accepted back into society when they do emerge.

Would you hire eother of them?

strandroad

Do you not think that bullying is a separate (obviously very serious) issue here and not necessarily a direct cause of Ana's death or the killers' plans?

I mean, even a "popular" (I hate this phrase!) 14 year old girl would still skip happily to meet a boy she had a crush on. Do you think that they picked Ana for her vulnerability, or rather because she was developed, pretty and met the stereotype of "Russian Anastasia" they saw on porn sites?

Eric Cartman

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Goes back to my idea we create Anas law. Where zero tolerance on bullying in any form across the entire education system and that’ll soften the cough of the little bastard kids that do it and also the sh!thead parents you describe in your post will learn quickly not to act the bollox like that.

Eradicate it at school level and it would soon stop happening thereafter in work and elsewhere

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

iamwhoiam

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

You just plucked that out of thin air with no basis to it

OwlsZat

strandroad wrote: »

Do you not think that bullying is a separate (obviously very serious) issue here and not necessarily a direct cause of Ana's death or the killers' plans?

I mean, even a "popular" (I hate this phrase!) 14 year old girl would still skip happily to meet a boy she had a crush on. Do you think that they picked Ana for her vulnerability, or rather because she was developed, pretty and met the stereotype of "Russian Anastasia" they saw on porn sites?

I think the bullying was so longterm the idea of doing bad things to her was normalised. The irony of Boy A bullying her for years about being an outcast then trying to rape her will no doubt be lost on him. I bet all 13 year olds have seen porn in some form such is the spread of internet connectivity. However, deciding to murder someone having seen nudidity at length doesn't really add up for me.

Boy A just seems like a nut job. More like Venables in the Bulger case. I'd rate his chances of reform as low at best.

Stop moaning ffs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

It would work. Young girls don’t get a pass cos they’re girls. I know young girls in particular can be vicious. Words but more than digs and hurt forever.

Make it zero tolerance child reported doing it Is expelled good luck finding s new school.

Youd see real change.

Stop moaning ffs

Just to remind the last few posters Ana was bullied horribly by a lot of her classmates. We don’t know these two bullied her at all.
They probably saw it happen and that was into them seeing her as a target. Let’s pretend be friends with her etc.

The bullying she endured was by many according to court reports and her families and teachers testimony. I believe them.

OwlsZat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

That's a really relevant point considering both purputrators were Male. Go on the wind up in some other thread.

Eric Cartman

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You just plucked that out of thin air with no basis to it

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

OwlsZat

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It would work. Young girls don’t get a pass cos they’re girls. I know young girls in particular can be vicious. Words but more than digs and hurt forever.

Make it zero tolerance child reported doing it Is expelled good luck finding s new school.

Youd see real change.

That's a great solution until you get to a place where there is only one school.

OwlsZat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

Got any links for that? Children bully other children for being different. Most often the children of inept parents. They feel by making others appear worse they will fit in better. Ana was Russian, adopted, hard of hearing, poor at learning and had poor vision. Fair to say there was plenty to go off. She needed other children to stick up for her and face off against those bullying her amongst other things.