Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Eric Cartman

OwlsZat wrote: »

Got any links for that? Children bully other children for being different. Most often is the children of terrible parents. They feel by making others appear worse they will fit in better. Ana was Russian, adopted, hard of hearing, poor at learning and had poor vision. Fair to say there was plenty to go off. She needed other children to stick up for her and face off against those bullying her amongst other things.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

iamwhoiam

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

I meant your opinion of what the Department would do

Stop moaning ffs

OwlsZat wrote: »

That's a great solution until you get to a place where there is only one school.

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Vicarious Function wrote: »

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.


Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

Bullies are cowards. A teacher is an easy target, AGS is not. It should go to the Gardai and a proper investigation should take place. Teachers should not bear the responsibility of fixing a broken family and their thug children.

Bullies should be expelled (depending on the seriousness of the case), end of.

rodge123

I think one posters suggestion of getting AGS involved in a great idea.
Allocate an extra few million to them to setup a nationwide team that will deal with it directly.
Anything reported to school is passsd onto this team who will deal with.
I reckon the majority of kids will stop the bullying fairly fast and not repeat it after been interviewed by a guard.
Maybe a system of three strikes and you get something on your record with guards.

That’s a very simplistic version of what could be done.

volchitsa

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

That may well be true, but there's no evidence that girls pushed boys into also bullying or excluding her, is there? And Boy B made it clear how he, a boy, saw her. No mention of him caring about the girls' views of her at all. That's all in your own mind, because you have issues with women.

radiotrickster

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

I'm assuming they mean in rural areas where there might only be one school in the area that the child could travel to. If they get expelled, what happens next? Do they have to travel an extra hour to school every day or get homeschooled? Prove they're sorry and hope for redemption?

IMO there's no excuse for bullying. If the parents have only one school in the area, maybe it will make them step up and stop the bullying.

It's an awful situation for the parents of the bullied child to know there's no alternative school in the area where they could send their child to get away from the bully, so rather than having the bullied child's family worrying about where their child should go to school, expelling the bully puts that stress on the bully's parents and rightly so.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

Some places literally have one school. There are no viable options as the next school is so far away. Think of places in the shticks, where bullying is also an issue.

Stop moaning ffs

Never thought of that. Thanks

Well that just makes zero tolerance more effective. This is the only school in the area.

Don’t be a complete cvnt and you don’t get thrown out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

radiotrickster wrote: »

I'm assuming they mean in rural areas where there might only be one school in the area that the child could travel to. If they get expelled, what happens next? Do they have to travel an extra hour to school every day or get homeschooled? Prove they're sorry and hope for redemption?

Absolute tough shíte I would say. Bullies cause serious issues for people. Get rid of them and let the parents figure it out. Not all parents of bullies are bad people, they may have done everything right, and should be given a chance to fix the problem. However, if it get to expulsion talks, then I have no sympathy for the little scrotes.

There's people on Boards with some not so nice stories about them being bullied and they have carried that with them all their lives.

Deep_learning

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

Neither of these backup your twisted logic.

There is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim of bullying. Girls are more frequently the victims of bullying. Often the bullying is perpetrated by boys.

Stop moaning ffs

I’m no bully apologist.
But most these kids doing that, are just repeating what they see at home and have grown up with. Sometimes they’re the target at home and school is where they effect their own dominance and react in response.

Not every time. But often.

OwlsZat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

Your first link says girls are more likely to be bullied, not like to be the bullied per your original point. Your second link is garbage.

Damien360

rodge123 wrote: »

I think one posters suggestion of getting AGS involved in a great idea.
Allocate an extra few million to them to setup a nationwide team that will deal with it directly.
Anything reported to school is passsd onto this team who will deal with.
I reckon the majority of kids will stop the bullying fairly fast and not repeat it after been interviewed by a guard.
Maybe a system of three strikes and you get something on your record with guards.

That’s a very simplistic version of what could be done.

Kids don't fear the guards anymore. They would rise to them looking for an argument and a quick march to the courts for a payout if anyone touched them. It would be a mess. Enforcement would be impossible.

Keep it in the school system. Allow schools to expel without recourse if the procedures are followed (similar to companies). A points system similar to your 3 strikes and your out. But principals would have to be held to account for not dealing with bullying when it is reported to them.

Bullying goes much further than schools and companies have been successfully brought to court for failing to deal with reported bullying. Not sure if the fault is pointed at HR or the director of the company. Money fixes this (somewhat) but in a school it has to be a person's job that will be at stake as I don't believe money will fix it. The state would just payout but if a principals job is at stake over failure to act, then we might get on top of this.

As an aside, I also believe the state pays too often with no consequences for the person in state employment that caused it. It is always the system at fault. HSE is the biggest example of this. That's why I think, until jobs are at stake, little will change. And I don't mean the ministers as that's a cop out.

volchitsa

Deep_learning wrote: »

Neither of these backup your twisted logic.

There is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim of bullying. Girls are more frequently the victims of bullying. Often the bullying is perpetrated by boys.

One of those articles says that disabled children and children with special needs also reported much higher incidences of bullying than other pupils. I wonder does poster Eric Cartman think that means that other disabled children are also the bullies in those cases?

OwlsZat

I'm out of the schooling loop but technology could surely step in here. Have a public (amongst parents) bullying dashboard where there children receives points against for bullying positive points for being nice. Would be quick to motivate dysfunctional parents.

OwlsZat

Alternatively, let a school issue 3 bullying violations against a student and it becomes a public order offense?

Certainly think there is scope to intact a new law, I'd be surprised if Ana's family hadn't some strong views.

rodge123

Damien360 wrote: »

Kids don't fear the guards anymore. They would rise to them looking for an argument and a quick march to the courts for a payout if anyone touched them. It would be a mess. Enforcement would be impossible.

Keep it in the school system. Allow schools to expel without recourse if the procedures are followed (similar to companies). A points system similar to your 3 strikes and your out. But principals would have to be held to account for not dealing with bullying when it is reported to them.

Bullying goes much further than schools and companies have been successfully brought to court for failing to deal with reported bullying. Not sure if the fault is pointed at HR or the director of the company. Money fixes this (somewhat) but in a school it has to be a person's job that will be at stake as I don't believe money will fix it. The state would just payout but if a principals job is at stake over failure to act, then we might get on top of this.

As an aside, I also believe the state pays too often with no consequences for the person in state employment that caused it. It is always the system at fault. HSE is the biggest example of this. That's why I think, until jobs are at stake, little will change. And I don't mean the ministers as that's a cop out.

Yeah I agree with a lot of what you say there and job accountability.
Only issue I see is that I imagine principles have a massive amount of things to juggle already without adding this responsibility on (I don’t work in eduction so unsure).
Maybe additional money to hire bullying officers employed by dept of eduction.
principle passes on info to them, they do the dirty work and give a report on case back to principle to make a decision.
That also avoids teachers been abused or cars damaged as most of work done by external officer.
For serious cases they principle also has to pass case details on standard Gardaí with parents permission.

splinter65

Vicarious Function wrote: »

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.


Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

The bully never has to know that the school was ever involved.
The parent of the bullied child complains to the school. The school make discreet enquiries to see if there is in fact bullying. If there is then the school hand their “findings” to AGS who take it from there. I think that bullying should from now in come under the heading “anti social behavior” because that’s what it is.
Arriving at the bully’s front door to discuss with his/her parents their child’s “anti social behavior” is a lot more serious.

Stop moaning ffs

All missing the point.
School has a zero tolerance policy. Every school. National policy. Government down.

Anyone or any child breaking that. Off you go.

This is that simple.

Employers and companies have these policies already.

Why not schools?

Suckit

A start would be nice.
I am not sure how many children took their own lives down to bullying, but I remember a few years ago a few had happened quite close to each other including two sisters - Erin and Shanon Gallagher.
At the time there were reports in the papers stating that bullying had been rising since 2005
A few years later France launched a bullying hotline and a separate number for cyber bullying.
After the death of Phoebe Prince in the U.S., Massachusetts introduced a state anti-bullying task force.
For such a small country we have had a lot of deaths as a result of bullying and still not a lot being done. Almost nothing other than the independent bodies who have fund raisers for most of their cash.

Something really needs to be done, not only does the bullying seem more vicious today, it is relentless. Because of the internet a bully can follow a person around and never give up. Demeaning them would only be a small part of it.

How hard could it be to set up a number.

Orchids

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

Eric Cartman

Orchids wrote: »

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

Knowing catherine Murphy she probably drove straight up to the house the day the boys were caught and wrote to the liffey champion saying she was doing a lot, just so she could milk it for years.

iamwhoiam

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Knowing catherine Murphy she probably drove straight up to the house the day the boys were caught and wrote to the liffey champion saying she was doing a lot, just so she could milk it for years.

Another post plucked from the air with nothing to back it up .

Eric Cartman

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Another post plucked from the air with nothing to back it up .

In my opinion catherine murphy does nothing round the town and is just interested in keeping herself on the political career bandwagon. The other poster asserted without proof that catherine murphy is friends with the family , nobody asks. I post a tounge in cheek opinion about catherine murphy based on how I feel she represents the town and suddenly I have to have some sort of statistical backup to it..... :pac:

come off it mate.

Collie D

Hardly the place to discuss opinions of the local TD

iamwhoiam

Orchids wrote: »

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

She is , she had said so publicly .
It would be fantastic if in Anas name an anti bullying policy could be put in place.
I think a task force could be put in place and a school could call on them to step in if they need guidance and information

iamwhoiam

Eric Cartman wrote: »

In my opinion catherine murphy does nothing round the town and is just interested in keeping herself on the political career bandwagon. The other poster asserted without proof that catherine murphy is friends with the family , nobody asks. I post a tounge in cheek opinion about catherine murphy based on how I feel she represents the town and suddenly I have to have some sort of statistical backup to it..... :pac:

come off it mate.

I am not your mate . I am an adult woman

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/from-beaming-pink-princess-to-shy-teen-anas-life-in-pictures-38244392.html


Ana had a big personality, according to Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy, a family friend. The Kriegel home was "noisy" because Ana was in it, and her parents often talked about the foundations being undermined because of the noise, Catherine laughingly recalled on RTE's Prime Time last week.

Damien360

Suckit wrote: »

A start would be nice.
I am not sure how many children took their own lives down to bullying, but I remember a few years ago a few had happened quite close to each other including two sisters - Erin and Shanon Gallagher.
At the time there were reports in the papers stating that bullying had been rising since 2005
A few years later France launched a bullying hotline and a separate number for cyber bullying.
After the death of Phoebe Prince in the U.S., Massachusetts introduced a state anti-bullying task force.
For such a small country we have had a lot of deaths as a result of bullying and still not a lot being done. Almost nothing other than the independent bodies who have fund raisers for most of their cash.

Something really needs to be done, not only does the bullying seem more vicious today, it is relentless. Because of the internet a bully can follow a person around and never give up. Demeaning them would only be a small part of it.

How hard could it be to set up a number.

I read this and thought of just googling the French anti bullying hotline. It exists primarily for companies but it would seem from some articles (see link of one good one below) say it is not really for schools and is pushed back to the school. Quite a lot of countries deal with workplace bullying but don't have anything for schools beyond pushing back to the school.

The French set up a forum of 12 year olds to survey bullying issues and have an initiative with Facebook as a result but it is an awareness campaign only. A national day of 8th November is given to this awareness also. No actions that I can find although I am relying on google translate.

We are great at setting up hotlines in this country but there is no follow up. It would be a pointless waste of money.

Link below is decent for different approaches to bullying. Schools get a mention at the end of each country paragraph. Hopefully I get the syntax right for link.

https://www.hcalawyers.com.au/blog/bullying-laws-around-the-world/amp/[url][/url]

Suckit

Damien360 wrote: »

I read this and thought of just googling the French anti bullying hotline. It exists primarily for companies but it would seem from some articles (see link of one good one below) say it is not really for schools and is pushed back to the school. Quite a lot of countries deal with workplace bullying but don't have anything for schools beyond pushing back to the school.

I don't know for sure. I can only remember it vaguely.
It is in my head, but I can't remember where I read it.

I think this may be it - http://en.rfi.fr/general/20151029-France-unveils-bullying-hotline-students-clamp-down-harassment

But whether or not they stuck to it I have no idea.