Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Flippyfloppy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do both.

Why drag this thread completely off topic. Im saying that if the gardai were more heavy handed and dished out meaningful justice to young offenders that made them behave that perhaps they wouldnt see the gardai as a soft touch and it would save lives

Yes I agree with them dishing out meaningful justice. And proper parenting at home too.

I am old enough to remember the end of Gardaí being heavy handed with teens out drinking etc. The backlash from parents was dire.

In this particular case it wouldn’t have helped, as the two boys don’t seem to have been on Gardaí radar, just the schools radar for bullying.

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Ahem

what do think compromises a 'physical warning'?

First of all police in Britain have demonstrated how it is actually possible to chase teenage scooter/quad bike/scrambler thieves in police cars and force them off the road with just a few scratches and bruises.
https://youtu.be/Iw0MFxk6To4
Im fully onboard with this. Are you not?

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

First of all police in Britain have demonstrated how it is actually possible to chase teenage scooter/quad bike/scrambler thieves in police cars and force them off the road with just a few scratches and bruises.
https://youtu.be/Iw0MFxk6To4
Im fully onboard with this. Are you not?

what exactly is a "physical warning"? its a pretty straightforward question.

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what exactly is a "physical warning"? its a pretty straightforward question.

A physical warning is safely knocking a law breaker of his mode of transport when he has refused the opportunity to stop otherwise (as demonstrated in the YouTube clip I posted) when asked by the police.
Would you prefer that he or an innocent passer by be more seriously injured or killed ?

Stop moaning ffs

To be fair to Gardai, we live in a country where smacking your own child even a tap on the bum, is a prosecutable offence.

Address that and fix that. Parents can’t even discipline their own kids and only have grounding them or taking the playstation off them as recourse. No wonder kids are gone feral.

My ma and da would just have to give me a look and I’d stop carrying on.
I’m sure many here have the same experience and upbringing.

These days though parents hands are tied. So gardai and respect for them is totally a lost concept.

Eric Cartman

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes I agree with them dishing out meaningful justice. And proper parenting at home too.

I am old enough to remember the end of Gardaí being heavy handed with teens out drinking etc. The backlash from parents was dire.

In this particular case it wouldn’t have helped, as the two boys don’t seem to have been on Gardaí radar, just the schools radar for bullying.

I think they would have had some reconsideration if the gardai were heavy handed and the justice system was effective.

I have no doubt in my mind that boy A went into it with a 'dont talk to the gardai, give them nothing and even if they get you you'll be out in 5' attitude.

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

A physical warning is safely knocking a law breaker of his mode of transport when he has refused the opportunity to stop otherwise (as demonstrated in the YouTube clip I posted) when asked by the police.
Would you prefer that he or an innocent passer by be more seriously injured or killed ?

you really think that is what they meant?

Suckit

I'm not sure if an appeal would be succesful for Boy B, unless he can make a full accountable and acceptable statement of everything that happened that day. I honestly believe the only way he can do that is by incriminating himself more.
Boy A's silence with Boy B's lies means that nobody may ever know what exactly happened that day, unless they tell somebody in Oberstown or one of the parents.

If Boy B did appeal and somehow managed to get out early, I wonder would that make Boy A speak up about the events that happened that day. If it did, would it make any difference without any evidence.

tuxy

Suckit wrote: »

If Boy B did appeal and somehow managed to get out early, I wonder would that make Boy A speak up about the events that happened that day. If it did, would it make any difference without any evidence.

He still would have nothing to gain by speaking out. Just doing what your told and not being any hassle to staff is how most offenders get out as early as possible. Dragging up what horrible, disgusting acts he did in the past probably wouldn't help.

Suckit

tuxy wrote: »

He still would have nothing to gain by speaking out. Just doing what your told and not being any hassle to staff is how most offenders get out as early as possible. Dragging up what horrible, disgusting acts he did in the past probably wouldn't help.

I meant the other way, as in would it have any effect on B having been released early.

Hypothetical anyway, but hadn't thought of it that way when I was saying it.

Sardonicat

Grounds for an appeal would have to be established in court before any appeal can go ahead. At this stage sentencing hasn't even happened yet, nevermind looking for grounds for appeal.

pablo128

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do both.

Why drag this thread completely off topic. Im saying that if the gardai were more heavy handed and dished out meaningful justice to young offenders that made them behave that perhaps they wouldnt see the gardai as a soft touch and it would save lives

It doesn't work. They used to do that to us in Clondalkin.

And wondered why they got a brick through the window when they were chasing a stolen car.

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you really think that is what they meant?

If a Garda can actually manage to physically catch a child riding a propelled vehicle illegally, and “rip” him off the bike then yes , of course I’d approve. Would you not approve also and if not why not?

Stop moaning ffs

splinter65 wrote: »

If a Garda can actually manage to physically catch a child riding a propelled vehicle illegally, yes can him and “rip” him off the bike then yes , of course I’d approve. Would you not approve also and if not why not?

If you’re the type of person that buys a child such a vehicle I’m pretty sure you’re going to take serious exception to a Garda physically taking your child off the bike. I’m not even sorry to say it’s a very specific type in our society that do buy their kids these scramblers. We all know this though.

8-10

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

smacking your own child

Should never be allowed

8-10

corpusvile wrote: »

I don't think offenders like Boy A & B can benefit from any form of counselling or therapy, personally.

Why not? Therapy should be mandatory for people like that, I'd be thinking the complete opposite. Those kids have serious issues. If you just lock them up and ignore them for 15 years what do you think happens when they get out?

Stop moaning ffs

8-10 wrote: »

Should never be allowed

‘Spare the Rod? spoil the child’

An older aphorism but kids are t learning consequences for their actions these days. On any level

iamwhoiam

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘Spare the Rod? spoil the child’

An older aphorism but kids are t learning consequences for their actions these days. On any level

I have three adult kids with kids of their own . Parenting takes time , input , love , listening and encouraging . We never had any need to slap them but we were in control , we were the parents , we were in charge . If anything is lacking in feral kids its all of the above

8-10

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘Spare the Rod? spoil the child’

An older aphorism but kids are t learning consequences for their actions these days. On any level

If a kid can't learn about consequences for their actions without being smacked by the parent then the parent hasn't been doing it right.

Any competent adult should be able to keep themselves in check. Smacking sounds like the tactic of the lazy parent.

Stop moaning ffs

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have three adult kids with kids of their own . Parenting takes time , input , love , listening and encouraging . We never had any need to slap them but we were in control , we were the parents , we were in charge . If anything is lacking in feral kids its all of the above

Oh i know. And agree with you.
I’d love you to see some of the kids around here. They’re actually frightening sometimes and I try remember there’s probably a situation where the parents either dead or in prison or in the pub and the grandparents are doing the (same terrible) job they did the first time of it is them raising them.
These are the kids you’ve seen mentioned previously here. Feral. Regularly strolling down the street kicking wing Mirrors off cars or if there’s a run of cars parked, bumper to bumper, every now and then run along the tops of them all kicking in wind screens

The younger ones are as young as 12/13.

It’s depressing. I ran and grabbed a hold of one of them a few months back for kicking the wing mirror off my elderly neighbours car. I got the whole gang of them on me screaming and roaring that *they* were going to call the police cos I’m not supposed to be ‘going near him!’

I’ve made the same call to gardai several times and they won’t even turn up. And they’re just two streets away.


Tangent, sorry.

corpusvile

8-10 wrote: »

Why not? Therapy should be mandatory for people like that, I'd be thinking the complete opposite. Those kids have serious issues. If you just lock them up and ignore them for 15 years what do you think happens when they get out?

If I thought therapy would help I'd certainly advocate it for them.

However, these aren't normal kids nor is Ana's murder a "standard" crime.
This wasn't a crime of anger or rage or passion or revenge or a fight outside a pub, or something that got outa hand between teens. It isn't a murder that's horrible by its very definition, but for which potential rehabilitation at least might be a viable possibility due to some form of context or circumstance.

There's a disturbing coldness to this. A serious amount of planning seems to have gone into it. Boy B went home after it & did his homework calm as you like & seemed annoyed to be inconvenienced more than anything else when the cops came to his door. There's a moral barrenness here, a distinct, callousness & lack of empathy that's quite chilling actually. In essence it appears to be simply a thrill kill. Murder for kicks.
I personally don't think therapy will do anything for them other than make them more adept & cute about telling the therapist what they think they'll want to hear. If anything therapy will probably make them more seasoned criminals.

I don't think they should be released 15 years later even though they almost certainly will be & probably sooner if Goodwin is anything to go by. I hope they get life simply so they'll be under state control for natural life.

But regardless of their sentence whether it's life or not, I very much doubt therapy will do anything except make them better at hiding their nature and fooling others.

splinter65

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

If you’re the type of person that buys a child such a vehicle I’m pretty sure you’re going to take serious exception to a Garda physically taking your child off the bike. I’m not even sorry to say it’s a very specific type in our society that do buy their kids these scramblers. We all know this though.

A Garda has to do whatever he has to do to ensure the safety of the public. I couldn’t give a toss what the neglectful twat of a “parent” thinks about the child being seperated from the bike thinks.
When did we start asking family members if it’s ok to arrest their loved one?!?

splinter65

8-10 wrote: »

Why not? Therapy should be mandatory for people like that, I'd be thinking the complete opposite. Those kids have serious issues. If you just lock them up and ignore them for 15 years what do you think happens when they get out?

Point is...boy A in particular not only meticulously planned and committed a depraved sexual assault and ultra violent murder while his friend watched, and then denied that he did, but he’s right now reliving it all night after night after night.
You don’t just walk away from that and forget about it.
You are going to be mentally disturbed for your entire life. Especially as he gets older and matures.
I think he thought he was recreating some scene from a violent porn clip combined with a video game.
I think he had some kind of extended out of body experience brought on by too much exposure to the fantasy world of porn hub and video games.
The picture C Gallagher of the Irish Times paints of him sitting with his head on his mothers shoulder in court holding the hands of both parents is pathetic.
No amount of therapy or counseling is going to rescue him from the horrible demons in his head.
I don’t think he can ever be allowed to be free unsupervised again.
Too much damage has been done.

Stop moaning ffs

corpusvile wrote: »

If I thought therapy would help I'd certainly advocate it for them.

However, these aren't normal kids nor is Ana's murder a "standard" crime.
This wasn't a crime of anger or rage or passion or revenge or a fight outside a pub, or something that got outa hand between teens. It isn't a murder that's horrible by its very definition, but for which potential rehabilitation at least might be a viable possibility due to some form of context or circumstance.

There's a disturbing coldness to this. A serious amount of planning seems to have gone into it. Boy B went home after it & did his homework calm as you like & seemed annoyed to be inconvenienced more than anything else when the cops came to his door. There's a moral barrenness here, a distinct, callousness & lack of empathy that's quite chilling actually. In essence it appears to be simply a thrill kill. Murder for kicks.
I personally don't think therapy will do anything for them other than make them more adept & cute about telling the therapist what they think they'll want to hear. If anything therapy will probably make them more seasoned criminals.

I don't think they should be released 15 years later even though they almost certainly will be & probably sooner if Goodwin is anything to go by. I hope they get life simply so they'll be under state control for natural life.

But regardless of their sentence whether it's life or not, I very much doubt therapy will do anything except make them better at hiding their nature and fooling others.

Except personally I do think this or want to believe this was a lose the reason ‘crime of passion’ situation
I’m not convinced A wanted to kill her.
She evidently fought back against his carefully laid plans and it escalated and he became enraged and was fvckin brutal.
But.
That’s all he had to say in interviews with police and he didn’t though. It was meant to be this and it escalated into that.
So it was premeditated murder it seems.

The fact he didn’t respond or engage even trying to save his own skin is utterly chilling.

iamwhoiam

Personally I think Boy B is just as evil . We still don’t know the truth as he lied the whole way through every single interview . For all we know he was the puppet master and he manipulated to have his way . We still don’t know what was in his rucksack or if he dumped phones or evidence . He had to cross a fast running Liffey and a park land with lots of green growth . I wouldn’t trust Boy B as far as I could throw him

corpusvile

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Except personally I do think this or want to believe this was a lose the reason ‘crime of passion’ situation
I’m not convinced A wanted to kill her.
She evidently fought back against his carefully laid plans and it escalated and he became enraged and was fvckin brutal.
But.
That’s all he had to say in interviews with police and he didn’t though. It was meant to be this and it escalated into that.
So it was premeditated murder it seems.

The fact he didn’t respond or engage even trying to save his own skin is utterly chilling.

Legally premeditation can occur mere seconds before a crime so this was absolutely premeditated & pre-planned in advance to boot. I think Boy A simply wanted to kill someone & would have done so, had it not been Ana. I suspect boy B egged him on in the weeks leading up to it. As well as being brutal the violence seemed quite calculated actually & again both displayed an alarming nonchalance after committing a murder with such particular viciousness.

Furthermore Boy A came seemingly fully prepared for Ana to put up a fight, hence his knee pads & shin guards. He certainly intended to harm her, this wasn't some very nasty prank but a prank nonetheless that went horribly wrong but again seems to be a coldly pre planned sexually aggravated murder.

I can't see any sense of context here or any "mitigating" circumstances. I really don't like using such words as "evil" as it smacks of simplicity and is emotive. But these two are as close to fitting the definition as they come, for me. All bets are off with such types. I'm personally very pessimistic at best & tbh outright skeptical that there's any hope of rehabilitation for these two. If they never commit another crime again after their eventual release, I still very much doubt they'll feel any actual genuine remorse for what they did & will only ever feel sorry they got caught.

mrjoneill

corpusvile wrote: »

Legally premeditation can occur mere seconds before a crime so this was absolutely premeditated & pre-planned in advance to boot. I think Boy A simply wanted to kill someone & would have done so, had it not been Ana. I suspect boy B egged him on in the weeks leading up to it. As well as being brutal the violence seemed quite calculated actually & again both displayed an alarming nonchalance after committing a murder with such particular viciousness.

Furthermore Boy A came seemingly fully prepared for Ana to put up a fight, hence his knee pads & shin guards. He certainly intended to harm her, this wasn't some very nasty prank but a prank nonetheless that went horribly wrong but again seems to be a coldly pre planned sexually aggravated murder.

I can't see any sense of context here or any "mitigating" circumstances. I really don't like using such words as "evil" as it smacks of simplicity and is emotive. But these two are as close to fitting the definition as they come, for me. All bets are off with such types. I'm personally very pessimistic at best & tbh outright skeptical that there's any hope of rehabilitation for these two. If they never commit another crime again after their eventual release, I still very much doubt they'll feel any actual genuine remorse for what they did & will only ever feel sorry they got caught.

I agree 100% it was a planned calculated savage brutal murder which both Boy A & Boy B did together. By Boy B denials and demeaning of Ana he is a twisted devious evil monster. He stayed to see Boy A brutally and savagely commit an evil crime. I can well see Boy B being the instigator of this as he was the one to knock on Ana's door and invite her out of her home to her certain murder. For their rehabilitation I agree with the assessment, they are profoundly evil and there is none. I would not want either of them living near me. While Boy A obv got his thrill out of brutal savagery I do believe Boy B believes he can manipulate to his liking. I also agree their regret was in getting caught. How do you rehabilitate such evil? I keep having to remind myself these were 13yr olds. The older they get, the more aware they will be of "not getting caught". Boy A will prob serve out a 10yr sentence brazing it out without admitting anything or apology for his enormous crime. His propensity for violence with sexual deviancy makes him very difficult to do anything with him. For Boy B he will try to manipulate for an early release, still purveying the view that he was misled into this. The only saving grace for him is he is a weasel, he is not a doer but a manipulator, he gets others to do the doing while he stands back doing the manipulating. I do believe he has a homoerotic interest in Boy A and it was to this purpose he planned the murder to see Boy A engage in a sex act with Ana. I don't see much reforming there either as he wont accept what he did, that is led a naive girl to her certain brutal murder which he probably planned. We cant get our heads around the enormity of the criminality while they have no hangups. Both are without empathy or conscience, its themselves that's important.

Hannibal_Smith

Why the hell are scramblers being discussed

Hannibal_Smith

mrjoneill wrote: »

I agree 100% it was a planned calculated savage brutal murder which both Boy A & Boy B did together. By Boy B denials and demeaning of Ana he is a twisted devious evil monster. He stayed to see Boy A brutally and savagely commit an evil crime. I can well see Boy B being the instigator of this as he was the one to knock on Ana's door and invite her out of her home to her certain murder. For their rehabilitation I agree with the assessment, they are profoundly evil and there is none. I would not want either of them living near me. While Boy A obv got his thrill out of brutal savagery I do believe Boy B believes he can manipulate to his liking. I also agree their regret was in getting caught. How do you rehabilitate such evil? I keep having to remind myself these were 13yr olds. The older they get, the more aware they will be of "not getting caught". Boy A will prob serve out a 10yr sentence brazing it out without admitting anything or apology for his enormous crime. His propensity for violence with sexual deviancy makes him very difficult to do anything with him. For Boy B he will try to manipulate for an early release, still purveying the view that he was misled into this. The only saving grace for him is he is a weasel, he is not a doer but a manipulator, he gets others to do the doing while he stands back doing the manipulating. I do believe he has a homoerotic interest in Boy A and it was to this purpose he planned the murder to see Boy A engage in a sex act with Ana. I don't see much reforming there either as he wont accept what he did, that is led a naive girl to her certain brutal murder which he probably planned. We cant get our heads around the enormity of the criminality while they have no hangups. Both are without empathy or conscience, its themselves that's important.

Completely agree.

Until boy B tells the truth anout what happened, I will never believe he was 'innocent' on all this.

The two of them have been nothing but self serving.

iamwhoiam

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/gang-rape-germany-m-lheim-boys-teenage-age-criminality-police-a8997636.html

After a gang rape in Mannheim the Germans are now looking at reducing the age of responsibility .Two of the five were only 12 .