Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

donkeykong5

abff wrote: »

m

Are you saying that he has a reputation for being too light on criminals when sentencing?

6 years for a man who messed around with paying vat on garlic produce. Yet paedophiles and their ilk let off constantly with warnings. Something wrong there

Hal3000

donkeykong5 wrote: »

I signed that petition ages ago. Absolutely nothing was done about it. He still sits in court daily and either let's paedophiles off with a suspended sentence or a friendly warning.

This is a new one that has only been started 4 days ago. He won’t be removed but if anything this might get our beloved justice minister to look to stop giving suspended sentences and change the laws for viewing child abuse material and violent crimes.

donkeykong5

jay1988 wrote: »

Its quite well known that he has let many child sex offenders off with very light sentences/suspended sentences.

A bloke i used to work with was caught by gardai in the act of downloading child porn when they raided his house, also found a lot more already downloaded material, this joker let him off without ever seeing the inside of a jail cell because he had a good work history and came from a good family.

He's a disgrace.

Absolutely nothing done about petition from 4 years ago either. Wonder why

jay1988

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-caught-downloading-child-porn-when-gardai-raided-home-gets-suspended-sentence-37980412.html

This is the one i was talking about.

wakka12

I dont see how anyone could think theres any other viable other option but life imprisonment for those boys, or at least a mental institution. There is no rehabilitation possible for somebody capable of committing something like that

iamwhoiam

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont see how anyone could think theres any other viable other option but life imprisonment for those boys, or at least a mental institution. There is no rehabilitation possible for somebody capable of committing something like that

There has been no suggestion that either of the boys are mentally ill as far as I know ?

Hoboo

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I haven’t seen anyone call for the law to be ignored. Changed perhaps. The place the law was ignored in this case was when two criminals lured an innocent young child to a deserted house bear her sexually assaulted her and then beat her to death.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt about “Impartial” and assume you meant the opposite.

Random juries are there to ensure that the common sense of ordinary people is applied to determine guilt or innocence. They have judges to direct and guide about the law. If you hold ordinary people in contempt then juries are to be derided.

We all know the story, no need for the emotion.

People are saying he shouldn't be concerned with the boys dignity nor offer them the protection of their dignity that the law affords them. That's ignoring the law. And the fact he explained this has the mob out.

I meant impartial. When applying law a judge must be impartial to all concerned. Can't see the confusion.

Jury's are not used to ensure common sense prevails, it's to ensure democracy prevails. This thread alone reflects how peoples minds work, and their inability to understand the system let alone comprehend or apply law. And far too emotional.

Hal3000

Hoboo wrote: »

We all know the story, no need for the emotion.

People are saying he shouldn't be concerned with the boys dignity nor offer them the protection of their dignity that the law affords them. That's ignoring the law. And the fact he explained this has the mob out.

I meant impartial. When applying law a judge must be impartial to all concerned. Can't see the confusion.

Jury's are not used to ensure common sense prevails, it's to ensure democracy prevails. This thread alone reflects how peoples minds work, and their inability to understand the system let alone comprehend or apply law. And far too emotional.

You really think judges in this country are impartial?

Let me just throw these nuggets of Irish judicial wisdom out there.

Quite recently a man who downloaded large amounts of child abuse material was given a suspended sentence because the judge ruled he had already felt enough shame by losing his family and position in the community. Here’s another, a man who assaulted his partner was let go free because English was not his first language and this would make prison difficult for him... I just love how people here try to quote the workings of the judicial system and somehow think that judges apply any of its rational here in Ireland. Our judicial system is a farce, we all know it and I suspect this case won’t be any different in how it’s sentenced.

tuxy

Hal3000 wrote: »

Our judicial system is a farce, we all know it and I suspect this case won’t be any different in how it’s sentenced.

If so why are our crime rates extremely low by world standards and even lower than average by EU standards?
No country has it perfect but some do have it better than others and it would seem Ireland is one of the better ones.

Hal3000

tuxy wrote: »

If so why are our crime rates extremely low by world standards and even lower than average by EU standards?
No country has it perfect but some do have it better than others and it would seem Ireland is one of the better ones.

How is the crime rate directly connected to the judicial system ? There are hundreds of factors as to why we could have a lower crime rate against the rest of the world? Our judicial system is a farce because we hand out constant suspended sentences. If it’s so robust then why do we have people walking the streets with 100+ convictions? Why do we let people who download and view large amounts of child abuse material walk away without any prison time ? If you can answer those questions then prove me wrong !

tuxy

Hal3000 wrote: »

How is the crime rate directly connected to the judicial system ? There are hundreds of factors as to why we could have a lower crime rate against the rest of the world? Our judicial system is a farce because we hand out constant suspended sentences. If it’s so robust then why do we have people walking the streets with 100+ convictions? Why do we let people who download and view large amounts of child abuse material walk away without any prison time ? If you can answer those questions then prove me wrong !

Exactly, we have focused on other areas that are more important than the judicial system. There is a limited amount of resources available to any one country. The judicial system needs work but should not take priority over other more important areas.

BDI

tuxy wrote: »

If so why are our crime rates extremely low by world standards and even lower than average by EU standards?
No country has it perfect but some do have it better than others and it would seem Ireland is one of the better ones.

Hasn’t it been proven that we are fairly fast and lose in the recording crime stats department.

Hal3000

tuxy wrote: »

Exactly, we have focused on other areas that are more important than the judicial system. There is a limited amount of resources available to any one country. The judicial system needs work but should not take priority over other more important areas.

No one is saying it should take priority. I’m saying they should sentence accordingly and stop letting people wrangle out sentences.

tuxy

Hal3000 wrote: »

No one is saying it should take priority. I’m saying they should sentence accordingly and stop letting people wrangle out sentences.

That would involve diverting large amounts of money that is currently going to one area being pumped into the prisons systems instead. Prisons are currently full so we would need to build more and it consts €100,000 a year on average to house one prisoner.
Increasing prisoner population size has not worked in other countries, if Ireland can come up with a new system where it does work then it may be worth funnelling more money into the prison system but even the research for that won't be cheap.

Hal3000

tuxy wrote: »

That would involve diverting large amounts of money that is currently going to one area being pumped into the prisons systems instead. Prisons are currently full so we would need to build more and it consts €100,000 a year on average to house one prisoner.
Increasing prisoner population size has not worked in other countries, if Ireland can come up with a new system where it does work then it may be worth funnelling more money into the prison system but even the research for that won't be cheap.

So it comes down to money not justice. Thank you for proving my point.

tuxy

Hal3000 wrote: »

So it comes down to money not justice. Thank you for proving my point.

Yes, bankrupting the country is not the solution and could cause a crime epidemic.

KWAG2019

Hoboo wrote: »

We all know the story, no need for the emotion.

I simply recounted the facts and who was guilty of the crime. You seem to be reading emotion into that which is a defensive and fearful reaction. But that's of no interest to me.

People are saying he shouldn't be concerned with the boys dignity nor offer them the protection of their dignity that the law affords them. That's ignoring the law. And the fact he explained this has the mob out.

I have seen people on the thread ask about the apparent injustice of being concerned about their dignity instead of the murdered child's. I saw you offer an explanation that he was legally obliged under human rights law to do that. I think people may not have understood the legal dignity that was involved which is a normal layman's response. The judge's interpretation of what he must do to uphold the legal right to dignity is his interpretation i.e. number of reporters etc. Others may differ.

I meant impartial. When applying law a judge must be impartial to all concerned. Can't see the confusion.

The confusion was caused by what you typed. "his role is not to ignore the law or apply the law in an impartial manner". What you typed states that his role is not to apply the law in an impartial manner. I assumed it was a mistake. You're welcome.

Jury's are not used to ensure common sense prevails, it's to ensure democracy prevails. This thread alone reflects how peoples minds work, and their inability to understand the system let alone comprehend or apply law. And far too emotional.

I beg to differ m'lud. I repeat juries rely on the judge to deal with law; they apply their common sense and humanity and emotion and reach a verdict. A human being devoid of emotions is an interesting proposition. A mature human being should be able to have them, recognise them and not be governed by them if inappropriate.

I don't know what Tuesday will bring. I will watch with sadness.

splinter65

pjohnson wrote: »

I didnt know they were getting an actual life sentence! When did that happen splinter?

So no other sentence apart from a life sentence will count as “facing the consequences” for you.
I assume you don’t consider their current incarceration as “facing the consequences”?

KWAG2019

tuxy wrote: »

That would involve diverting large amounts of money that is currently going to one area being pumped into the prisons systems instead. Prisons are currently full so we would need to build more and it consts €100,000 a year on average to house one prisoner.
Increasing prisoner population size has not worked in other countries, if Ireland can come up with a new system where it does work then it may be worth funnelling more money into the prison system but even the research for that won't be cheap.

And at last we begin looking at the reality. An excellent post as a starting point. Who should be in prison? Why does it cost so much? What are the crimes etc etc. Why are legal costs so high? Western societies are reaching a point where they have to stop and look at the reality of costs, taxation, parenting, education, drug taking etc etc and begin devising new ways of responding. There is an awful lot of chat about disrupting business to find new ways: our whole legal and judicial system is crying out for disruption. The blank canvas rather than the legacy system patched and repatched may be the way to go.

tuxy

Doesn't the fact that Darren Goodwin received a life sentence increase the possibility that the judge will hand down a life sentence for these boys?
I think it makes it highly likely that he will for boy A, I wouldn't be as confident about boy B but still hope he does.

iamwhoiam

Hoboo wrote: »

We all know the story, no need for the emotion.

People are saying he shouldn't be concerned with the boys dignity nor offer them the protection of their dignity that the law affords them. That's ignoring the law. And the fact he explained this has the mob out.

I meant impartial. When applying law a judge must be impartial to all concerned. Can't see the confusion.

Jury's are not used to ensure common sense prevails, it's to ensure democracy prevails. This thread alone reflects how peoples minds work, and their inability to understand the system let alone comprehend or apply law. And far too emotional.

How exactly do you expect the normal citizen to understand the justice system or comprehend law ?
It would be like me expecting ordinary people to understand the intricacies of the human endocrine system .
If you have a point about the justice system that you understand would not be a good idea to explain it rather that expect others to aware of it

iamwhoiam

tuxy wrote: »

Doesn't the fact that Darren Goodwin received a life sentence increase the possibility that the judge will hand down a life sentence for these boys?
I think it makes it highly likely that he will for boy A, I wouldn't be as confident about boy B but still hope he does.

I would hope that their complete lack of remorse and their continued efforts to put Ana down and disrespect her would count against them .

spurious

McCrack wrote: »

Dignity in the context of your understanding is not what the judge means. There are certain constitutional and human rights that every person has regardless of how bad they are or the terrible things acts they have committed. It's part of the rule of law we abide by as a civilised and democratic society.. And if you don't like that you can move to north Korea or somewhere

..... Article 1 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights states that: 'Human dignity is inviolable. ... The Irish Constitution is also based on the notion of 'the dignity and freedom of the individual'. Similarly, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is founded on the principle of the 'dignity and worth of the human person'.

This, plus, whether we like it or not, the judge is not there for Ana's family. He is there to make sure the law is followed.
Like it or not, our legal system allows for the possibility of behaviour reform and does not have punishment as its sole focus.

KWAG2019

spurious wrote: »

This, plus, whether we like it or not, the judge is not there for Ana's family. He is there to make sure the law is followed.
Like it or not, our legal system allows for the possibility of behaviour reform and does not have punishment as its sole focus.

Focusing on a judge is missing the point alright. The law as it currently stands enables judicial outcomes at variance with what society might see as appropriate. There can be a legal snobbery about ordinary people (which is ultimately dangerous to the rule of law itself) and a dismissive “we know best” delusion. This is a confusion between knowledge of the law and understanding the origin and purpose of law itself.

And there is the whole notion of rehabilitation: what actually works? What sort of cases does it work with. And with some criminals so dangerous is the risk of re-offending however slight to some eyes too much for society to gamble with. Because the gamble is on another’s persons life without which talk of dignity is empty.

mariaalice

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Focusing on a judge is missing the point alright. The law as it currently stands enables judicial outcomes at variance with what society might see as appropriate. There can be a legal snobbery about ordinary people (which is ultimately dangerous to the rule of law itself) and a dismissive “we know best” delusion. This is a confusion between knowledge of the law and understanding the origin and purpose of law itself.

And there is the whole notion of rehabilitation: what actually works? What sort of cases does it work with. And with some criminals so dangerous is the risk of re-offending however slight to some eyes too much for society to gamble with. Because the gamble is on another’s persons life without which talk of dignity is empty.

I always though Judges were there to protect us from to much 'common law' and mob rule its impossible to both alow the mob rule impulse and do what is probably best for sociey.

fritzelly

tuxy wrote: »

That would involve diverting large amounts of money that is currently going to one area being pumped into the prisons systems instead. Prisons are currently full so we would need to build more and it consts €100,000 a year on average to house one prisoner.
Increasing prisoner population size has not worked in other countries, if Ireland can come up with a new system where it does work then it may be worth funnelling more money into the prison system but even the research for that won't be cheap.

Why does it cost 100k a year to house a prisoner? Seriously?
As for legal aid - a joke, us fools are paying multiple times for the same person to appear before a judge (Nolan) to get let off (for multiple serious offences) only to go and do the same thing again. Nothing to do with the thread, just a rant

Anyway what time is the judgement expected tomorrow?

SirChenjin

My heart goes out to Ana's parents and her family as they face yet another ordeal tomorrow.

amadangomor

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There has been no suggestion that either of the boys are mentally ill as far as I know ?

Maybe not mentally ill but must be on the spectrum of psychopathy/sociopathy which has been manifested in a premeditated horrific predatory murder.

Society needs to be protected from them so they should never be free again.

wakka12

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There has been no suggestion that either of the boys are mentally ill as far as I know ?

I dont know, but a mentally normal or adjusted person isnt capable of the premeditate rape, torture ,humiliation and murder with their bare hands of an innocent child who has done them no wrong and then lacking the remorse to confess. There is something wrong with those boys minds, obviously

If they are let out into normal society during their lifetime its only a matter of time before another innocent person meets the same fate as that poor girl because of them

Hoboo

Hal3000 wrote: »

You really think judges in this country are impartial?

Let me just throw these nuggets of Irish judicial wisdom out there.

Quite recently a man who downloaded large amounts of child abuse material was given a suspended sentence because the judge ruled he had already felt enough shame by losing his family and position in the community. Here’s another, a man who assaulted his partner was let go free because English was not his first language and this would make prison difficult for him... I just love how people here try to quote the workings of the judicial system and somehow think that judges apply any of its rational here in Ireland. Our judicial system is a farce, we all know it and I suspect this case won’t be any different in how it’s sentenced.

I never once said I think judges ARE impartial.

I never once quoted anything. Id use quotations if I did. One of the roles of a judge is to apply law impartially. That's a fact. No one said that happens all the time.