Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

FishHook

volchitsa wrote: »

Thanks for that. Very odd isn't it, going from one extreme to the other like that.

I actually wonder if the father isn't part of whatever abnormalities led Boy B to be the person he is. The father doesn't seem to be up for assuming responsibilities either it seems. Presumably he wouldn't have to say anything, but he could still be present all the same. Or done like the grandfather of Boy A, apologised to Ana's family.

Probably just as well that he did not turn up. He behaved like a buffoon of the highest order during the trial.

pjohnson

volchitsa wrote: »

Thanks for that. Very odd isn't it, going from one extreme to the other like that.

I actually wonder if the father isn't part of whatever abnormalities led Boy B to be the person he is. The father doesn't seem to be up for assuming responsibilities either it seems. Presumably he wouldn't have to say anything, but he could still be present all the same. Or done like the grandfather of Boy A, apologised to Ana's family.

Pfft what apology? He was busy gushing about how great his grandson was. He'd have done less harm to Ana's family if he said nothing.

manbitesdog

strandroad wrote: »

How can you stand up and say something like this to the family who's daughter he assaulted and murdered. I have no words.

He was talking to the court.

iamwhoiam

manbitesdog wrote: »

He was talking to the court.

Anas family were in court . His grandson viciously murdered their daughter . It was grossly insensitive

Ulysses Gaze

Suckit wrote: »

That's a very tough one to get my head around.

On one hand I believe it to be a good thing that the father has not turned up, as many asked early on in this thread, how could he stand by him etc..

On the other hand, He has pretty much hung his son out to dry by not turning up having possibly made any chance of appeal a little more difficult. But he may have got the son to admit things he himself didn't want to believe. We may never know.

In any case, that father was struggling from the outset with his handling of this, which I guess is understandable. But ignoring the Garda at his door suggested he wasn't the brightest.

The cynic in me thinks this could be a ploy to garner sympathy with the judge.

"This trial has destroyed not one family, but another as well. He has lost his father."

manbitesdog

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Anas family were in court . His grandson viciously murdered their daughter . It was grossly insensitive

Of course these kind of comments were going to be made at the sentencing hearing. Boy A’s family are reportedly just an ordinary, supportive family. They are probably horrified by the crime he committed.

salmocab

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Anas family were in court . His grandson viciously murdered their daughter . It was grossly insensitive

By that metric though nobody should speak up for them, like it or not they have rights and someone speaking up for the guilty regards character is pretty standard. What these two did doesn’t mean they should be treated any differently by the court.

iamwhoiam

salmocab wrote: »

By that metric though nobody should speak up for them, like it or not they have rights and someone speaking up for the guilty regards character is pretty standard. What these two did doesn’t mean they should be treated any differently by the court.

It still goes against the grain for the ordinary folk reading it .” A kind and caring “ child does not viciously beat a girl to death

salmocab

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It still goes against the grain for the ordinary folk reading it .” A kind and caring “ child does not viciously beat a girl to death

No certainly not but he’s giving how he feels the child is at home. This happens all the time it might be unsavoury but it’s the way things are and to change from the norm opens the system up to appeals

Road-Hog

manbitesdog wrote: »

He was talking to the court.

What sort of arrogant attitude is that.....he was talking to the court...so that gives you Carte Blanche/immunity to say anything you like in front of who ever......I hope you are being sarasctic....!

Hal3000

manbitesdog wrote: »

Of course these kind of comments were going to be made at the sentencing hearing. Boy A’s family are reportedly just an ordinary, supportive family. They are probably horrified by the crime he committed.

This crime has also damaged our society. We cannot ever allow this to happen again, the judge must do his upmost to protect young women across the country by sentencing both of these two men to the maximum permissible sentence. The message has to go out to any child having thoughts or notions or thinking about ever treating another child like this - you will be hunted down and you won’t ever ever get out. Enough is enough. If you don’t behave like a human then you don’t deserve any rights.

abff

The statement by boy A's grandfather includes the following:

He said the period between the ages of 11 and 13 can be a difficult time for boys, both mentally and physically. He said boys at this age can be difficult for parents and teachers to manage but the majority of them remain “unaffected by new circumstances”.

The man said his grandson was “one of the majority”, who loved practical subjects such as art, science and woodwork, and that nothing pleased him more than preparing detailed drawings and making models.

“I am personally heartbroken that my much-loved grandson could have been involved in something like this,” he said, adding that his grandchild was a loving, caring and kind child, who never showed aggression or ill-temper.

He said Boy A was much-loved by his parents and grandparents.

“There will be a major gap in all our lives without his constant presence. Our lives have been turned upside down, all going through huge emotional turmoil and loss,” he continued.

I think it would be better if he just kept his thoughts to himself. I know he's trying to support a family member, but surely any modicum of decency but have led him to just say nothing.

wrangler

salmocab wrote: »

No certainly not but he’s giving how he feels the child is at home. This happens all the time it might be unsavoury but it’s the way things are and to change from the norm opens the system up to appeals

That's true, All we can hope is the judge doesn't listen to anything in support of the boys.
What they did was absolutely indefensible

is_that_so

pjohnson wrote: »

Pfft what apology? He was busy gushing about how great his grandson was. He'd have done less harm to Ana's family if he said nothing.

Just in case you hadn't noticed the grandfather wasn't on trial. He's fully entitled to comment on what his grandson was like outside of this awful crime.

manbitesdog

Road-Hog wrote: »

What sort of arrogant attitude is that.....he was talking to the court...so that give you Carte Blanche/immunity to say anything you like in front of who ever......I hope you are being sarasctic....!

Usually you just answer the questions put to you truthfully.

is_that_so

strandroad wrote: »

How can you stand up and say something like this to the family who's daughter he assaulted and murdered. I have no words.

Due process includes this type of character reference, much as some people disagree with it.

manbitesdog

Hal3000 wrote: »

This crime has also damaged our society. We cannot ever allow this to happen again, the judge must do his upmost to protect young women across the country by sentencing both of these two men to the maximum permissible sentence. The message has to go out to any child having thoughts or notions or thinking about ever treating another child like this - you will be hunted down and you won’t ever ever get out. Enough is enough. If you don’t behave like a human then you don’t deserve any rights.

Yeah, I don’t think we are going to have a spate of murders perpetrated by children. Crimes like this are extremely rare.

iamwhoiam

Thankfully I have no experience of anything like this but I would be interested to know how I might feel
I can’t imagine I could still feel the same about a child of mine who could do this
Would I equally love and hate my son ? Would I question how I reared him , would I question my parenting skills ? Would I be ashamed of him but know I have to support him ? It would be a huge dilemma for me I think

RollieFingers

Ana's mother's victim impact statement really is difficult to read, can't even imagine how difficult it was for her folks to put that together.

Just strikes me what an utterly needless and pointless thing for somebody to do to someone else as was done in this case, the rope wouldn't be good enough for those two evil little fcukers. And oul Grandpa A needs to sit down and shut up about his loving, caring and kind grandchild, he's actually a murdering psychopath.

KWAG2019

Hal3000 wrote: »

This crime has also damaged our society. We cannot ever allow this to happen again, the judge must do his upmost to protect young women across the country by sentencing both of these two men to the maximum permissible sentence. The message has to go out to any child having thoughts or notions or thinking about ever treating another child like this - you will be hunted down and you won’t ever ever get out. Enough is enough. If you don’t behave like a human then you don’t deserve any rights.

It could be a landmark case: in the era of me too it raises serious and similar issues. It raises the real issue of narrowing judicial discretion and making the minimum sentence in such cases much longer and ensuring that cannot be set aside. It raises issues of parenting. It raises issues about rights: should some of these be contingent on behaviour. Should some classed as human rights be re designated as civil rights. The fact they may exist in UN charters gives an inertia to reform; some here mistake that inertia for a semi theological infallibility and immutability. There is a lot to it. But the key is that the approach we have had is no longer sufficient in sentencing. Time for serious pressure on politicians. A vigil for Ana regardless of sentence imposed would be a good start.

Hal3000

KWAG2019 wrote: »

It could be a landmark case: in the era of me too it raises serious and similar issues. It raises the real issue of narrowing judicial discretion and making the minimum sentence in such cases much longer and ensuring that cannot be set aside. It raises issues of parenting. It raises issues about rights: should some of these be contingent on behaviour. Should some classed as human rights be re designated as civil rights. The fact they may exist in UN charters gives an inertia to reform; some here mistake that inertia for a semi theological infallibility and immutability. There is a lot to it. But the key is that the approach we have had is no longer sufficient in sentencing. Time for serious pressure on politicians. A vigil for Ana regardless of sentence imposed would be a good start.

Agree with your points, but how sad is it that a young girl had to be savagely killed so politicians can finally realise what people have been saying for years about justice in this country. No more landmark cases I say. If this sentence is any way short I know I won’t be hold a vigil. I’ll be out protesting - demanding that our laws change.

Dufflecoat Fanny

god help them the poor people and poor ana

JP Liz V1

Hal3000 wrote: »

Awful. And what’s going to be even worse is the pathetic sentence they’ll most likely get.

I think life should mean life, both inside for all their lives, disgusting scummy fcekers

KWAG2019

Hal3000 wrote: »

Agree with your points, but how sad is it that a young girl had to be savagely killed so politicians can finally realise what people have been saying for years about justice in this country. No more landmark cases I say. If this sentence is any way short I know I won’t be hold a vigil. I’ll be out protesting - demanding that our laws change.

I don’t think politicians have realized. That has yet to come. I think a lot of ideological support for the status quo that operates in the background will have to be dragged into public view on this.

donkeykong5

Stepping Stone wrote: »

I accept that I may be wrong but this is my theory about the grandfather and his staggering arrogance. The man is a retired teacher, so probably enjoyed an audience of pupils almost daily. Good reputation, probably on the committee for every association or group locally. In his own head, someone that is important and looked up to. A well respected man in fact.
When Boy A gets into trouble grandad decides that he needs to be there. After all, his opinion is worth so much! Family reputation in tatters, today was his opportunity of setting the record straight and letting everyone know that in his expert opinion his grandson is an unfortunate victim of circumstances. Poor loving child is suicidal and the family are suffering without him. Obviously he’s sorry for Ana’s family but not as sorry as he is for himself and his ego.

F.....him.

JP Liz V1

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I think life should mean life, both inside for all their lives, disgusting scummy fcekers

I agree. Where does the phrase “life” come from anyway? It’s the most dishonest use of a word and the law deems it an acceptable lie.

salmocab

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I agree. Where does the phrase “life” come from anyway? It’s the most dishonest use of a word and the law deems it an acceptable lie.

Because it can mean up to life, there is no set release date.

Nermal

is_that_so wrote: »

Due process includes this type of character reference, much as some people disagree with it.

It currently does, it doesn’t have to though. I think this stuff and victim impact statements are completely irrelevant. Decide the sentence on the same set of facts that decided guilt.

iamwhoiam

Nermal wrote: »

It currently does, it doesn’t have to though. I think this stuff and victim impact statements are completely irrelevant. Decide the sentence on the same set of facts that decided guilt.

I definitely think the victim or their family should be heard in court . They should have a voice and the murderers should hear them in this case

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

Because it can mean up to life, there is no set release date.

Do any serve all their life in prison? Disregard anyone who had a heart attack in their 50s or stuff like that.