Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

JP Liz V1

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Do any serve all their life in prison? Disregard anyone who had a heart attack in their 50s or stuff like that.

Is 25 years the max ("life") in Ireland?

salmocab

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is 25 years the max ("life") in Ireland?

No that’s not what life is

manbitesdog

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is 25 years the max ("life") in Ireland?

Life means life, it just doesn’t mean life in prison.

manbitesdog

manbitesdog wrote: »

Life means life, it just doesn’t mean life in prison.

So judges should really say. You have been sentenced to X in prison and for the rest of your life your behaviour will be monitored (or whatever it is that happens when they release them)

Life definitely does not mean life!

salmocab

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

So judges should really say. You have been sentenced to X in prison and for the rest of your life your behaviour will be monitored (or whatever it is that happens when they release them)

Life definitely does not mean life!

It can mean life yes but it would be rare that someone would never be released. Think I read the average is about 22 years

JP Liz V1

salmocab wrote: »

It can mean life yes but it would be rare that someone would never be released. Think I read the average is about 22 years

Some really should never be released, life in prison for taking a life

Vicarious Function

Vicarious Function wrote: »

This statement seems to have been plucked out of the blue with no backup. Further on you say it's based on hearsay. This has no validity and only serves to introduce confusion into the issues being discussed on this thread.

Pretty much the entire thread is based on hearsay, gossip, speculation and 'what ifs'. Did B's Dad say this?Is A's Dad a barrister? Did B know more than he says?What will the Judge do?

If you are going to trawl the thread for verification of all statements made, good luck with that.

Be right back

John Shaw and Geoffrey Evans are amongst the two longest serving prisoners for murder.

topmanamillion

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is 25 years the max ("life") in Ireland?

In theory life means life.
In practice the parole board reviews a life sentence after 7 years.
Ultimately its the minister for justice that makes the decision but that's a bit of ceremonial role as they're highly unlikely to go against the recommendation of the parole board.

Venables and Thompson spent 8 years in prison for killing Jamie Bulger. Albeit in a different jurisdiction but with similar circumstances i.e a child was the victim and children were the perpetrators.
Boy A will probably spend around 7 years mostly in a juvenile offenders center. Boy B doesn't have the sexual offence charge that Boy A has so may serve a shorter sentence.
Anyone thinking they'll spend decades in jail is deluded.

JP Liz V1

MadYaker wrote: »

From reading the Irish times it sounds like boy a will get a life sentence with a review in ten years, potentially for extension as well as release. Boy b could get something much more lenient, short stint in oberstown followed by a long parole. Though he could also get life but I think that’s unlikely.

I think both boys should get life in prison

salmocab

Be right back wrote: »

John Shaw and Geoffrey Evans are amongst the two longest serving prisoners for murder.

Evans is dead, Shaw was in prison from 76 and sentenced in 78 so 41 or 43 years so far

So say someone gets a life sentence and in 18 years they are released. 2 years after being released they are caught robbing 3 bottles of vodka and found guilty. What happens to them?

Omackeral

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I think both boys should get life in prison

They 100% won't.

Yeah_Right

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

So say someone gets a life sentence and in 18 years they are released. 2 years after being released they are caught robbing 3 bottles of vodka and found guilty. What happens to them?

In Ireland? They get told not to do it again and then they get sent home.

Omackeral

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

So say someone gets a life sentence and in 18 years they are released. 2 years after being released they are caught robbing 3 bottles of vodka and found guilty. What happens to them?

Back to the clinky. People have been sent back for not signing on at their Garda station in time. You're out under strict guidelines. Break them and your incarceration can be reactivated.

Till the ends of their lives?

Suckit

Has anything been released about Boy B since they went in to Oberstown? Has he sad anything, or would we be privy to that?
Boy A seems to have admitted he killed her, but not sexual assault.
Her attraction to him may have been a large part of the reason that he did what he did, so it might be a while before he admits more.
But Boy B, who seems to have been the cunning one, and the main reason they were caught so quickly due to his lies on top of lies doesn't seem to have come clean about anything yet, unless I have missed something?

splinter65

If I were the judge in my chambers today looking for a fitting sentence here’s what I would be focusing on:
Everyone knows young teenage boys. Either you grew up with some or you have/had one living in your house or in the house of someone you know well.
They cannot be viewed the same as fully grown adults. Not even near.
So, bearing that in mind....
The most damning thing about them for me was the immediate aftermath of the ferocious murder. Both boys left Anas battered bleeding naked body in that stinking filthy house and walked out into the lovely park in the bright sunshine where the birds were singing and dogs were barking and people were walking and laughing.
They both walked home and into the normality of their own homes. Something to eat. Mammys stupid questions. Daddy’s watching the telly.
But you’ve just killed/watched someone kill another human being. Deliberately, pre planned, viciously without mercy, for no reason.
Actually you don’t even know if she was dead or not. Because you’re only 13. For all you know some other kids will go into that house right now to smoke weed and they’ll find her, ring 999 and she’ll recover and be able to tell everyone what happened....
With that there’s a ring at the door and it’s the cops. And they’re asking about Ana. Your mother is talking to them and now she’s calling you to come to the door....
Do you:
A. Completely lose it, start to bawl , spill the beans in a state of collapse, tell all....
B. Stay cool, shake your head, shrug your shoulders, hands in your pockets, keep schtum.
Over 3 days you stick to your guns and for months afterwards and right up till now.
It’s bone chilling.
I’m convinced now that for some reason long before that fateful day Ana had ceased to be a living thing to both of them. She was some kind a cartoon character who nobody loved or cared about and nobody missed. A baddie from a film.
I don’t know why they thought this but it appears that as much as they planned rigorously to lure her away from home, to violently attack her and sexually assault her they never planned for her to be missed or for there to be a search or Gardai involved. Boy A could have thrown his mask and other evidence in the river or dumped it in a wheelie bin somewhere but he to not have been bothered and just brought it home.
I think neither of them expected to hear any more about it. Why is this?

donkeykong5

splinter65 wrote: »

If I were the judge in my chambers today looking for a fitting sentence here’s what I would be focusing on:
Everyone knows young teenage boys. Either you grew up with some or you have/had one living in your house or in the house of someone you know well.
They cannot be viewed the same as fully grown adults. Not even near.
So, bearing that in mind....
The most damning thing about them for me was the immediate aftermath of the ferocious murder. Both boys left Anas battered bleeding naked body in that stinking filthy house and walked out into the lovely park in the bright sunshine where the birds were singing and dogs were barking and people were walking and laughing.
They both walked home and into the normality of their own homes. Something to eat. Mammys stupid questions. Daddy’s watching the telly.
But you’ve just killed/watched someone kill another human being. Deliberately, pre planned, viciously without mercy, for no reason.
Actually you don’t even know if she was dead or not. Because you’re only 13. For all you know some other kids will go into that house right now to smoke weed and they’ll find her, ring 999 and she’ll recover and be able to tell everyone what happened....
With that there’s a ring at the door and it’s the cops. And they’re asking about Ana. Your mother is talking to them and now she’s calling you to come to the door....
Do you:
A. Completely lose it, start to bawl , spill the beans in a state of collapse, tell all....
B. Stay cool, shake your head, shrug your shoulders, hands in your pockets, keep schtum.
Over 3 days you stick to your guns and for months afterwards and right up till now.
It’s bone chilling.
I’m convinced now that for some reason long before that fateful day Ana had ceased to be a living thing to both of them. She was some kind a cartoon character who nobody loved or cared about and nobody missed. A baddie from a film.
I don’t know why they thought this but it appears that as much as they planned rigorously to lure her away from home, to violently attack her and sexually assault her they never planned for her to be missed or for there to be a search or Gardai involved. Boy A could have thrown his mask and other evidence in the river or dumped it in a wheelie bin somewhere but he to not have been bothered and just brought it home.
I think neither of them expected to hear any more about it. Why is this?

Because they are two evil physcopaths.

Gadgetman496

Maybe the two bucks will make a contribution to the court poor box like Al Porter did today!

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1030/1087548-al-porter/

Sardonicat

^^^^^
They were 12, that's why. That and the fact they had completely dehumanised her in their minds before hand, and, being 12 and possibly (likely ) to have disordered personalities, unable to comprehend that anyone else could take a different view of Ana to themselves.

In short, the lack of foresight of a pubescent child coupled with a pathological lack of empathy.

mcgovern

Vicarious Function wrote: »

This statement seems to have been plucked out of the blue with no backup. Further on you say it's based on hearsay. This has no validity and only serves to introduce confusion into the issues being discussed on this thread.

Do you know what privately means? Unless I'm one of the 3 people involved in the conversation then obviously I've no proof or backup?
What exactly have you added to the discussion other than a load of references to other cases?

Neyite

splinter65 wrote: »

I think neither of them expected to hear any more about it. Why is this?

I think you hit on it earlier. They had long ceased to regard Ana as a person. Because to them, she had no worth. So by a child's logic, they didn't even consider that she had worth to a great many people or that she may even be missed.



An adult would consider those things and have the logic and knowledge to understand that people would be missed and searched for, but a child won't.

splinter65

Sardonicat wrote: »

^^^^^
They were 12, that's why. That and the fact they had completely dehumanised her in their minds before hand, and, being 12 and possibly (likely ) to have disordered personalities, unable to comprehend that anyone else could take a different view of Ana to themselves.

In short, the lack of foresight of a pubescent child coupled with a pathological lack of empathy.

The psychiatrists have found nothing wrong with boy A.

iamwhoiam

Neyite wrote: »

I think you hit on it earlier. They had long ceased to regard Ana as a person. Because to them, she had no worth. So by a child's logic, they didn't even consider that she had worth to a great many people or that she may even be missed.



An adult would consider those things and have the logic and knowledge to understand that people would be missed and searched for, but a child won't.

They probably also had no insight into detective work . They presumed if not caught red handed no one would know it was them . They made no effort to dump evidence despite having to cross a fast flowing Liffey and lots of growth and brambles etc . They were clueless really and walked right into a trap despite their lies .

Gadgetman496

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Thank heavens that nolan is not the judge in this case.

Judge Martin Nolan is due to sentence a female Ex-teacher tomorrow.

Interesting to see how that goes!

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1030/1087525-teacher/

Be right back

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Judge Martin Nolan is due to sentence a female Ex-teacher tomorrow.

Interesting to see how that goes!

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1030/1087525-teacher/

Will be interesting. Is she from a good background? Arrested at the airport? Was she trying to do a runner?

tayto lover

Neyite wrote: »

I think you hit on it earlier. They had long ceased to regard Ana as a person. Because to them, she had no worth. So by a child's logic, they didn't even consider that she had worth to a great many people or that she may even be missed.



An adult would consider those things and have the logic and knowledge to understand that people would be missed and searched for, but a child won't.

I don’t know.
They were clever enough in their planning. Taking different routes and times returning from the murder house, taking her to it and planning what to say afterwards. These boys are clever schemers in my mind. They didn’t once behave like kids.

Be right back

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t know.
They were clever enough in their planning. Taking different routes and times returning from the murder house, taking her to it and planning what to say afterwards. These boys are clever schemers in my mind. They didn’t once behave like kids.

Makes you wonder just how long they were planning it. May Ana rest in peace..

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They probably also had no insight into detective work . They presumed if not caught red handed no one would know it was them . They made no effort to dump evidence despite having to cross a fast flowing Liffey and lots of growth and brambles etc . They were clueless really and walked right into a trap despite their lies .

They wanted to kill someone. They wanted to kill violently, destroy someone, smash them up, hear them scream in terror and pain, see the blood, let rip, really be in the moment. Not like the violent video games to which they’d become kinda desensitised.
I don’t think they had any personal dislike for Ana. I don’t think they had any feelings for her one way or the other.
Ana was perfect for this project. First of all she craved friends so much they would have no problem getting her to come out to meet them.
She had no friends. Nobody cared about Ana nobody would miss her nobody would look for her. By the time she was found, if ever, she’d be hard to identify, maybe impossible.
Anyway even if they were questioned about her they had cast iron stories.
Added to that everyone knows you can’t put kids in prison.
Perfect.