Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

splinter65

Neyite wrote: »

Yes, all that can be thought out and researched. It's the emotional intelligence and logic from life experience that an adult might possess is what I meant was lacking from their plan.

Teens are great for half arsed planning. For example they might plan to borrow a parent's car. But don't consider getting caught, or causing harm. Those facebook free gaff parties are another example. To a teen you have a free gaff and you want you want to throw an epic party. But you don't stop to consider what will happen when your 1000 friends on FB land in and set the house on fire. So while they planned in detail the event, they were not emotionally intelligent enough to consider forensics or that anyone would even look for her because as far as they were concerned everyone* hated her.


*when you are a teen, "everyone" consists of your peers at school. Parents and teachers are just embarrassingly irrelevant adults who don't have a clue and are out of touch with the world so didn't even factor in their considerations.

I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, sorry.

I’m totally on the same wavelength as you. Even when boy b encountered Anas father at the door it never occurred to him that he could be looking for Ana later. It just wasn’t a concern for him.

ohnonotgmail

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

those figures seem very hard to find.

Neyite

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m totally on the same wavelength as you. Even when boy b encountered Anas father at the door it never occurred to him that he could be looking for Ana later. It just wasn’t a concern for him.

Exactly, in lots of ways they showed typical teen behaviour albeit it was applied to extremely aberrant actions.

HildaOgdenx

Neyite wrote: »

Yes, all that can be thought out and researched. It's the emotional intelligence and logic from life experience that an adult might possess is what I meant was lacking from their plan.

Teens are great for half arsed planning. For example they might plan to borrow a parent's car. But don't consider getting caught, or causing harm. Those facebook free gaff parties are another example. To a teen you have a free gaff and you want you want to throw an epic party. But you don't stop to consider what will happen when your 1000 friends on FB land in and set the house on fire. So while they planned in detail the event, they were not emotionally intelligent enough to consider forensics or that anyone would even look for her because as far as they were concerned everyone* hated her.


*when you are a teen, "everyone" consists of your peers at school. Parents and teachers are just embarrassingly irrelevant adults who don't have a clue and are out of touch with the world so didn't even factor in their considerations.

I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, sorry.

I agree.

They thought no further than carrying out the horrendous murder, and seemed to think if they simply said nothing/ denied it after that, it would all just go away.

Suckit

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Getting caught and punished wasn't in their game plan at all. So I don't think the likelihood of being hanged would have mattered. They thought they were too clever for everyone. If Ana's dad hadn't noticed it was boy b at the door would they have been caught?

With the cctv footage, they weren't able to pick out boy b and say it was him, as far as I remember. It was only knowing she left with him, they were able to work out it was him.

Boy b was so calm in the interviews he thought they were home and dry.

That's probably the most chilling part about it. They never thought they would get caught to be punished. Even now, I don't think boy a admitting to anything stems from remorse. I think it's an attempt to help himself get a lighter punishment.

They still don't get it.

Yes, I have to agree. They didn't think that they would be caught. Maybe they wouldn't, had Ana not fought back so vehemently.
Which led Boy A's father to bring him to the park where they bumped into the Garda, and he lied about being beaten by two 20 year olds. The same Garda that would call to his house later to ask if he had seen Ana. The Garda recognised him, and decided to get him to retrace his steps also.
The most important part was when the two boys chose different directions at a fork in the path and then looked at each other, which made the Gardaí take notice. So they split them up and Boy B's lies started coming thick and fast.

Up to then they had pretty much calculated for everything.

AllForIt

I think there should be two detention options for U18's. One as they are now and a new second option of an actual prison. The prison maybe holding youths up to the age of 21.

volchitsa

Suckit wrote: »

Yes, I have to agree. They didn't think that they would be caught. Maybe they wouldn't, had Ana not fought back so vehemently.
Which led Boy A's father to bring him to the park where they bumped into the Garda, and he lied about being beaten by two 20 year olds. The same Garda that would call to his house later to ask if he had seen Ana. The Garda recognised him, and decided to get him to retrace his steps also.
The most important part was when the two boys chose different directions at a fork in the path and then looked at each other, which made the Gardaí take notice. So they split them up and Boy B's lies started coming thick and fast.

Up to then they had pretty much calculated for everything.

I think that's true - it wasn't unreasonable for them to think they could get away with it. If Ana had been smaller and weaker, maybe they could have. And for sure one thing that male teens are not going to imagine is that a girl could possibly be a physical risk to them. They'd have no idea of what someone can do happens when they are fighting for their lives. Even a girl.

Omackeral

AllForIt wrote: »

I think there should be two detention options for U18's. One as they are now and a new second option of an actual prison. The prison maybe holding youths up to the age of 21.

They used to have that. It was called St Patrick's Institution, right beside Mountjoy. It was deemed unfit for purpose going back less than a decade.

Omackeral

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Do you know if there are stats on numbers of those who get life who are sent back to prison to serve out the remainder of the sentence?

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

BarryD2

Very sad case. Consider though that it's not unusual for kids to be cruel to other creatures, whether torturing small animals, pulling wings off butterflies etc etc. These lads seemingly applied the same type of thinking & elements of violence & sadism to a fellow human.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will behave that way again, no more than a group of lads who set a cat on fire, all turn out to be violent adults.

But whilst society can disapprove of cruelty to animals, it can't tolerate this for fellow humans. So there need to be very serious consequences for these two lads. A strong message from society to the rest of society that whilst they might be no great further threat, that what they did will not be tolerated. And if they suffer, well so be it.

KWAG2019

Omackeral wrote: »

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

I wonder does reincarceration mean to the end of her/ his natural life. I expect the terms of his license or whatever legalese they use allow for...variation. The whole are needs to be opened to public scrutiny. Interest groups, philosophies etcetc

salmocab

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I wonder does reincarceration mean to the end of her/ his natural life. I expect the terms of his license or whatever legalese they use allow for...variation. The whole are needs to be opened to public scrutiny. Interest groups, philosophies etcetc

I doubt something small like shop lifting would result in say a 50 year old who has served 25 years going back in until they die, it would surely mean a few years then back again n front of the board.

KWAG2019

Omackeral wrote: »

I personally know two lifers this year alone that have been reincarcerated for misdemeanours after being out in the community or in open centres. There's a hell of a lot of more convicted murderers walking around out there than folks might think.

I forgot the obvious: how do we find out how many?

Suckit

BarryD2 wrote: »

Very sad case. Consider though that it's not unusual for kids to be cruel to other creatures, whether torturing small animals, pulling wings off butterflies etc etc. These lads seemingly applied the same type of thinking & elements of violence & sadism to a fellow human.

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

volchitsa

Suckit wrote: »

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

No it's not normal. In fact I gather that deliberate cruelty to animals in children is actually understood nowadays to be a very bad sign that there a risk of future psychological problems.

(To be clear, some limited experimentation like pulling wings off flies, especially in smaller children who haven't yet developed much empathy, doesn't necessarily mean much, but inflicting pain on animals for the sake of inflicting pain is what's concerning.)

Omackeral

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I forgot the obvious: how do we find out how many?

PM sent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Suckit wrote: »

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

Really? Torturing small animals, yes that is fucked. But the bolded would not be particularly unusual unless I grew up with an abnormally messed up cohort of kids and I don’t think I did. I think any adult would be a bit bemused at having that reported to them, to be honest.

And yes, I know butterflies are small animals but I hope people will understand the distinction I’m making.

iamwhoiam

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Really? Torturing small animals, yes that is fucked. But the bolded would not be particularly unusual unless I grew up with an abnormally messed up cohort of kids and I don’t think I did. I think any adult would be a bit bemused at having that reported to them, to be honest.

And yes, I know butterflies are small animals but I hope people will understand the distinction I’m making.

No , I definitely would not have been around kids who pulled wings off butterflies or willingly injured small animals . Even now we have to be kind to spiders according to out little granddaughter .

Suckit

I'm sure I may have seen somebody torturing a wasp when I was younger or maybe a fly, but definitely never saw anybody pulling the wings off a butterfly (not that either is less cruel, but a butterfly is fairly big compared to a childs hands, and that would look quite torturous). And as an adult, if a kid came to me and said another kid was doing it, I wouldn't be bemused.
I would just tell them to stay away from that kid.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Suckit wrote: »

I'm sure I may have seen somebody torturing a wasp when I was younger or maybe a fly, but definitely never saw anybody pulling the wings off a butterfly (not that either is less cruel, but a butterfly is fairly big compared to a childs hands, and that would look quite torturous). And as an adult, if a kid came to me and said another kid was doing it, I wouldn't be bemused.
I would just tell them to stay away from that kid.

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

iamwhoiam

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

tuxy

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

As a young boy I saw other boys do such things, it was always a brief stage they went through and never progressed to animals, only insects. It seemed to be a curiosity thing and not about inflicting harm.

Suckit

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

Didn't/wouldn't castigate anyone, but I also don't believe it is a 'commonplace act'. Definitely wasn't when I was growing up (as a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I have never seen it happen), and yes, if a kid came to me to tell me that they had seen another child pulling the wings off a butterfly or being cruel to a small creature, I would assume that the reason the child came to me and told me that was because they didn't like what they saw.

Which would be why I would tell them to stay away from that kid..

Not sure what you're not believing or getting there.

jmreire

fritzelly wrote: »

Even in countries with the harshest criminal sentences does not stop people doing the worst things imaginable knowing what will happen if caught

Yes that happen's, but in these Country's, the level of deadly violence is very high. Had this happened in one of these County's, if justice was not seen to be done, the offended Family would do it themselves..the culture there is very different than here in Ireland. But IF the death penalty was legal here, you can be sure there would not be any youngsters planning on murdering any one. Even Hardened criminals would be inclined to think twice, even if they were still prepared to kill.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

Super.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Suckit wrote: »

Didn't/wouldn't castigate anyone, but I also don't believe it is a 'commonplace act'. Definitely wasn't when I was growing up (as a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I have never seen it happen), and yes, if a kid came to me to tell me that they had seen another child pulling the wings off a butterfly or being cruel to a small creature, I would assume that the reason the child came to me and told me that was because they didn't like what they saw.

Which would be why I would tell them to stay away from that kid..

Not sure what you're not believing or getting there.

It’s hypothetical so you don’t know what you’d do in reality. Your kid tells you her/his very best friend did it and that’d be it? Friendship over? Hardly. Talk is cheap.

iamwhoiam

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Super.

Whats that supposed to mean ?

BarryD2

I don't think kids are that much different to when I grew up. And I would have seen groups of lads particularly aged 10-15 picking on small creatures and killing and/or torturing them. I would have shied away myself from that sort of thing but the hard chaws thought little of it. Maybe a curiosity thing, maybe a power trip. And if you view Google as any sort of guide, a quick search will show it still goes on. Humans whether adult or young are quite capable of despicable acts. What separates normal behaviour from that is often quite a thin veneer.

I believe the court should treat these lads severely as they crossed that thin veneer of a line and that must be discouraged at all costs in others.

salmocab

jmreire wrote: »

Yes that happen's, but in these Country's, the level of deadly violence is very high. Had this happened in one of these County's, if justice was not seen to be done, the offended Family would do it themselves..the culture there is very different than here in Ireland. But IF the death penalty was legal here, you can be sure there would not be any youngsters planning on murdering any one. Even Hardened criminals would be inclined to think twice, even if they were still prepared to kill.

Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

KWAG2019

salmocab wrote: »

Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

But equally penalty points affect speeding etc. Limiting and preempting human misbehavior is an interesting area of exploration.