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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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    #5972
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    But equally penalty points affect speeding etc. Limiting and preempting human misbehavior is an interesting area of exploration.

    Undoubtedly but speeding and most things that pick up points are more bad habit than a conscious decision. People take chances constantly and whilst a deterrent is necessary it doesn’t come close to stamping out the offense. I wouldn’t argue that a death penalty would never change any would be murderers mind I just think in most cases people don’t do things thinking they will be caught so don’t worry about the consequences, much as speeders just assume they won’t be passing a camera van.


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    #5973
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    salmocab wrote: »
    Undoubtedly but speeding and most things that pick up points are more bad habit than a conscious decision. People take chances constantly and whilst a deterrent is necessary it doesn’t come close to stamping out the offense. I wouldn’t argue that a death penalty would never change any would be murderers mind I just think in most cases people don’t do things thinking they will be caught so don’t worry about the consequences, much as speeders just assume they won’t be passing a camera van.

    I agree about the death penalty. The argument about it ended with the Guildford 4 and the Birminghsm 6. I think sanctions and deterrents work. For some people. There may be a reluctance to explore why that is in Western societies. It needs exploration.

    I should add that the view that punishment is not what is needed should be looked at again. It seems that the human being needs a sense of justice being served by those who have done wrong receiving an equal sanction. Unfairness gnaws at society.


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    #5974
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    salmocab wrote: »
    Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

    We have all the stat's about Country's having the death penalty, but still having murders being committed, that's cut and dried and used as being the best argument against having the death penalty.....but what we don't know statistically is how many potential murderers were dissuaded from killing some one, because of the death penalty? Now that's an interesting thought.
    Would that poor girl's killer's have behaved differently if there was the possibility that they would face the death penalty?


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    #5975
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Whats that supposed to mean ?

    It means super. You know, an acknowledgement. You have never seen it happen. I have. In most cases, a parent wouldn’t even hear about it either. Categorisation of a kid as a potential future degenerate for something like that is a tad ridiculous. The dramatics. It’s not setting a dog on fire.

    I mean, volchitsa says it’s not normal but then says the bolded:
    volchitsa wrote: »
    No it's not normal. In fact I gather that deliberate cruelty to animals in children is actually understood nowadays to be a very bad sign that there a risk of future psychological problems.

    (To be clear, some limited experimentation like pulling wings off flies, especially in smaller children who haven't yet developed much empathy, doesn't necessarily mean much, but inflicting pain on animals for the sake of inflicting pain is what's concerning.)

    That’s what I’m talking about. So anyone who says they’d keep their children away from any child who pulled wings off an insect - ye would in your hoop.
    tuxy wrote: »
    As a young boy I saw other boys do such things, it was always a brief stage they went through and never progressed to animals, only insects. It seemed to be a curiosity thing and not about inflicting harm.

    Yes, thank you. Exactly.


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    #5976
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    jmreire wrote: »
    We have all the stat's about Country's having the death penalty, but still having murders being committed, that's cut and dried and used as being the best argument against having the death penalty.....but what we don't know statistically is how many potential murderers were dissuaded from killing some one, because of the death penalty? Now that's an interesting thought.
    Would that poor girl's killer's have behaved differently if there was the possibility that they would face the death penalty?

    Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
    Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.


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    #5977
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,483 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    salmocab wrote: »
    Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
    Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.

    I guess you could create a threshold for guilty that is beyond dispute. If a bank robber for example caught at the scene of a crime has just killed 3 customers and staff , no need for appeals, no need for forensic evidence or passing eye witnesses....
    But yeah I would agree that "beyond reasonable doubt" is not a good enough reason to have someone executed though you probably could have a 3 strikes and you are out?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #5978
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    silverharp wrote: »
    I guess you could create a threshold for guilty that is beyond dispute. If a bank robber for example caught at the scene of a crime has just killed 3 customers and staff , no need for appeals, no need for forensic evidence or passing eye witnesses....
    But yeah I would agree that "beyond reasonable doubt" is not a good enough reason to have someone executed though you probably could have a 3 strikes and you are out?

    The problem there is you have to draw a line that suggests someone is more guilty than another. It could turn out the guy was forced to do it or more people would be killed. It’s just not a thing a state should have the power of.


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    #5979
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    They probably also had no insight into detective work . They presumed if not caught red handed no one would know it was them . They made no effort to dump evidence despite having to cross a fast flowing Liffey and lots of growth and brambles etc . They were clueless really and walked right into a trap despite their lies .

    That I'm not so sure about. Afaik there was suspicion that Boy B may have had another phone. His father even claimed his son had a habit of losing phones. Plus the backpack boy B was seen with on cctv does not seem to have came to light. All the forensic evidence was found on boy A. One may not have been particularly clued in - my suspicion is that the other likley was ...

    I do wonder if they have continued to keep a pact of silence on much of what actually happened.


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    #5980
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    salmocab wrote: »
    The problem there is you have to draw a line that suggests someone is more guilty than another. It could turn out the guy was forced to do it or more people would be killed. It’s just not a thing a state should have the power of.

    Given the likelihood of error, the irreversibility of error and the consequences on credibility of the rule of law the death penalty has no place in a reasonable society. That’s as far as I would go in saying no to the death penalty.

    But that leaves a problem too. When “life” sentences aren’t.


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    #5981
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    salmocab wrote: »
    Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
    Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.[/QUOTE

    Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.


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    #5982
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    jmreire wrote: »
    Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.

    That would have ment they thought they were not too clever to get caught but there is proof that they did.


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    #5983
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    jmreire wrote: »
    salmocab wrote: »
    Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
    Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.[/QUOTE

    Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.

    I really don’t think it would, it doesn’t deter in places with much higher murder rates than we have so I see no reason to think two children would have given it the thought to arrive at a logical conclusion.


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    #5984
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 52,016 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    salmocab wrote: »
    jmreire wrote: »

    I really don’t think it would, it doesn’t deter in places with much higher murder rates than we have so I see no reason to think two children would have given it the thought to arrive at a logical conclusion.

    I don’t believe the death penalty deters people who think they can outsmart everyone else and get away with it.


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    #5985
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    gozunda wrote: »
    That I'm not so sure about. Afaik there was suspicion that Boy B may have had another phone. His father even claimed his son had a habit of losing phones. Plus the backpack boy B was seen with on cctv does not seem to have to have came to light. All the forensic evidence was found on boy A. One may not have been particularly clued in - my suspicion is that the other likley was ...

    I do wonder if they have continued to keep a pact of silence on much of what actually happened.

    He also came home, claimed he was assaulted and allowed mammy to wash his bloodied clothes


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    #5986
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    tayto lover wrote: »
    salmocab wrote: »

    I don’t believe the death penalty deters people who think they can outsmart everyone else and get away with it.

    Well in this case, we will never know, as we don't have the death penalty.But as I stated in an earlier post, we have all the fact's and figure's about convicted murderer's getting the death sentence..and the point that it has not stopped the murder's is used as an argument against it ( plus of course the fact that an innocent person may be executed, and I'm pretty sure that it has happened in the past ) But what we don't know is how many murder's were prevented by having the death penalty in a Country? Believe it or not...the prospect of an imminent hanging concentrate's the mind wonderfully.. ( quote Samuel Johnston ) Although I can't prove it..I'm pretty sure that it has prevented many death's. This does not make me an advocate of the death penalty..quite the opposite, as I'm 100% against it.


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    #5987
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    jmreire wrote: »
    tayto lover wrote: »

    Well in this case, we will never know, as we don't have the death penalty.But as I stated in an earlier post, we have all the fact's and figure's about convicted murderer's getting the death sentence..and the point that it has not stopped the murder's is used as an argument against it ( plus of course the fact that an innocent person may be executed, and I'm pretty sure that it has happened in the past ) But what we don't know is how many murder's were prevented by having the death penalty in a Country? Believe it or not...the prospect of an imminent hanging concentrate's the mind wonderfully.. ( quote Samuel Johnston ) Although I can't prove it..I'm pretty sure that it has prevented many death's. This does not make me an advocate of the death penalty..quite the opposite, as I'm 100% against it.

    Where that falls apart though is people committing crimes don’t consider the sentence as imminent. The only data available is comparing countries with and without capital punishment and comparing the murder rates. This shows that death penalty’s are no real deterrent. It may have prevented some deaths over the years but it’s completely unquantifiable unless someone checks out the murder rates in a country like America before and after the reintroduced of execution.


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    #5988
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,803 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    To those posting about the death penalty and bringing it back?

    Do you honestly think that were Ireland to reintroduce it?
    Despite its being completely at odds with our European and International obligations...

    That it would be applied to 2 adolescent children? Despite what the age criminal responsibility may be?

    Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?


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    #5989
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    banie01 wrote: »
    Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?

    The data is there, it does not lower crime rates. If anything it harms society.
    Some people just feel better once there is some form of revenge they think is adequate. You only have to read about innocent relatives of criminals being attacked to see this.


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    #5990
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    The only time recently I've felt the death penalty would be warranted was in the case of Josef Fritzl. He was an elderly man, with failing health. There is no chance of rehabilitation (IMO) - he'd be 89 by the time he'd be up for parole if he lives that long. If you feel that prison is for rehabilitation rather than punishment, then what is the point of keeping him there?


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    #5991
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 35,030 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Do people really want to live in a country where the state has the power to execute them?

    I know I don't.


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    #5992
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,803 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    tuxy wrote: »
    The data is there, it does not lower crime rates. If anything it harms society.
    Some people just feel better once there is some form of revenge they think is adequate. You only have to read about innocent relatives of criminals being attacked to see this.

    I agree tuxy, all the evidence points directly towards societal harm from Death penalty and prison as retribution rather than rehabilition.

    If you treat people like animals, one cannot be at all surprised if they bite.

    Just because certain people commit heinous acts, does not IMO mean that society should retaliate with a like for like level of judicial violence.


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    #5993
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    banie01 wrote: »
    To those posting about the death penalty and bringing it back?

    Do you honestly think that were Ireland to reintroduce it?
    Despite its being completely at odds with our European and International obligations...

    That it would be applied to 2 adolescent children? Despite what the age criminal responsibility may be?

    Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?

    Not sure many are actually calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty it’s more either a reactionary call based on this case or debating whether it would be a deterrent at all. Even the people calling it in the former set of circumstances are most likely just lashing out as opposed to actually thinking it should be brought back.
    That all said there is no chance of it being brought back anyway so it’s an academic debate nothing more.


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    #5994
    Kevhog1988
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    When is the actual sentencing of the two boys likely to happen?


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    #5995
    Gadgetman496
    Registered Users Posts: 8,400 ✭✭✭Gadgetman496


    theemigrant wrote: »
    When is the actual sentencing of the two boys likely to happen?

    Next Tuesday

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."



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    #5996
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,803 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    salmocab wrote: »
    Not sure many are actually calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty it’s more either a reactionary call based on this case or debating whether it would be a deterrent at all. Even the people calling it in the former set of circumstances are most likely just lashing out as opposed to actually thinking it should be brought back.
    That all said there is no chance of it being brought back anyway so it’s an academic debate nothing more.

    I get that Salmo, the reaction to the horror visited on Ana is visceral.
    I totally understand the rage, indeed I share it.

    But the knee-jerk to seek an eye for an eye, to call for the death penalty is akin to seeking a job for a lynching.

    Even if Ireland had a death penalty, this particular scrotes would be and are still entitled to due process.
    They have a right of appeal that will no doubt be exhausted.

    And beyond all that, are the people calling for the D.P really ok with Ireland sanctioning the judicial murder of children?


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    #5997
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Gadgetman496 wrote: »
    Next Tuesday

    This Tuesday(I get this one wrong all the time and it really confuses people)


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    #5998
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    tuxy wrote: »
    This Tuesday(I get this one wrong all the time and it really confuses people)

    You were right the first time. And the second! The use of “this” meaning “next” and “next” meaning Tuesday week is one of mad linguistic contortions we have. Next Tuesday is...well the next Tuesday along.


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    #5999
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    I pray every day that those two boys suffer a horrendous life;

    God bless Mammy, God bless Daddy, God bless Fido and Snowball the Rabbit. Oh, and God, please make those lads suffer for the rest of their lives. Amen.


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    #6000
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Do people really want to live in a country where the state has the power to execute them?

    I know I don't.

    One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

    "Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.


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    #6001
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Omackeral wrote: »
    One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

    "Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.

    If it actually was a deterrent and very few mistakes were made then maybe there might be an argument for it. However it is not a deterrent so I don't see how anyone could be in favour of it unless they get satisfaction out of making the world more miserable.


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