Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

salmocab

tuxy wrote: »

If it actually was a deterrent and very few mistakes were made then maybe there might be an argument for it. However it is not a deterrent so I don't see how anyone could be in favour of it unless they get satisfaction out of making the world more miserable.

Very few mistakes?

KWAG2019

Omackeral wrote: »

One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

"Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.

There isn’t any reasonable debate necessary about the death penalty; it’s settled for the reasons you gave. There is need for a much wider and searching examination about the criminal justice system. Much wider than the interest groups who have created it and brought it to its current state would feel comfortable about and to be done over the amplified groupthink beloved of them.

buttercups88

I really hope the judge gives them a real sentence because until children of all ages start to see there is consequences to their actions things are going to get a lot worse.

Already we see gangs of youths causing mayhem and there is no deterrent because criminals have more rights than ever before in case their feelings are hurt.

jmreire

salmocab wrote: »

jmreire wrote: »

Where that falls apart though is people committing crimes don’t consider the sentence as imminent. The only data available is comparing countries with and without capital punishment and comparing the murder rates. This shows that death penalty’s are no real deterrent. It may have prevented some deaths over the years but it’s completely unquantifiable unless someone checks out the murder rates in a country like America before and after the reintroduced of execution.

This is purely a hypothetical discussion, but that's the problem Salmocab, it's not possible to quantify the Nr of murder's that were NOT committed because of the DP in that Country. So we can't say for sure if the DP works or not..

salmocab

jmreire wrote: »

salmocab wrote: »

This is purely a hypothetical discussion, but that's the problem Salmocab, it's not possible to quantify the Nr of murder's that were NOT committed because of the DP in that Country. So we can't say for sure if the DP works or not..

Well we can compare countries with and without also countries that reintroduce before and after. I would think the data suggests it doesn’t but stats alone are obviously raw. Personally apart from what I think on other aspects of it, I don’t think it’s a deterrent as criminals don’t think they’re getting caught anyway.

Road-Hog

banie01 wrote: »

I get that Salmo, the reaction to the horror visited on Ana is visceral.
I totally understand the rage, indeed I share it.

But the knee-jerk to seek an eye for an eye, to call for the death penalty is akin to seeking a job for a lynching.

Even if Ireland had a death penalty, this particular scrotes would be and are still entitled to due process.
They have a right of appeal that will no doubt be exhausted.

And beyond all that, are the people calling for the D.P really ok with Ireland sanctioning the judicial murder of children?

Can I ask what the eff is a ‘scrote’ and where it originated from.....I know it’s probably meant to be derogatory and insulting but it is too soft a term to describe these two utter abominations........excuses for ‘boys’.......how they evolved to be capable of inflicting such cruelty and them post their actions to continue describing Ana in such vile terms is just beyond comprehension

tuxy

Road-Hog wrote: »

Can I ask what the eff is a ‘scrote’ and where it originated from.....I know it’s probably meant to be derogatory and insulting but it is too soft a term to describe these two utter abominations........excuses for ‘boys’.......how they evolved to be capable of inflicting such cruelty and them post their actions to continue describing Ana in such vile terms is just beyond comprehension

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

Road-Hog

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

Sorry I’ve no intention of reading tabloids to be kept up to date on the latest derogatory slang words for scumbags.

Are you seriously sugggesting that the average teenagers today are only slightly more sane than these monsters.....?

KWAG2019

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

tuxy

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

True but the finding are probably that they are closer to normal than most people would like to admit. You are right the reports will not be made public and there would probably be no benefit in doing so.

Road-Hog

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

There are one or two contributors to this mega thread who would like to see the end of the use of the ‘clapham omnibus man’ principle being removed from the Irish legal system....?

KWAG2019

Road-Hog wrote: »

There are one or two contributors to this mega thread who would like to see the end of the use of the ‘clapham omnibus man’ principle being removed from the Irish legal system....?

True. The professions around the legal system have confused their knowledge of and work within it to ownership of it. The wider interest groups who actually create policy are another player who needs to step back. The demoralizing of the police and the undermining of society’s faith in justice are very serious issues.

jmreire

tuxy wrote: »

True but the finding are probably that they are closer to normal than most people would like to admit. You are right the reports will not be made public and there would probably be no benefit in doing so.

During their school years, there was nothing noticed by the teacher's to indicate what they were capable of....so they did not "stick out" from the other school kid's. In other words, "Perfectly normal "

CollyFlower

jmreire wrote: »

During their school years, there was nothing noticed by the teacher's to indicate what they were capable of....so they did not "stick out" from the other school kid's. In other words, "Perfectly normal "

There's not much that teachers can do about a disruptive student, they have them in class for a year, they're there to teach them, not to look out for psychoct behaviour. There's too much responsibility put on teachers, I think.

Road-Hog

CollyFlower wrote: »

There's not much that teachers can do about a disruptive student, they have them in class for a year, they're there to teach them, not to look out for psychoct behaviour. There's too much responsibility put on teachers, I think.

Graham Dwyer obviously got through school and a significant part of his adult life ‘appearing normal’ to most of his peers apart from being narcissistic and obsessed with status. He was able to hide his extremely deviant/perverted/sicko side very well and but for some rare weather events and diligent police/dectective work would probably still be amongst us.

Suckit

Road-Hog wrote: »

Graham Dwyer obviously got through school and a significant part of his adult life ‘appearing normal’ to most of his peers apart from being narcissistic and obsessed with status. He was able to hide his extremely deviant/perverted/sicko side very well and but for some rare weather events and diligent police/dectective work would probably still be amongst us.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/graham-dwyer-trial/as-a-child-graham-dwyer-pushed-boyhood-pal-off-roof-31335143.html

As a child Graham Dwyer attempted to kill a younger boy who was seriously injured when Dwyer pushed him off a roof while supposedly playing.

Elaine O'Hara's killer later attacked his victim a second time in a violent frenzy while the child was recuperating from multiple fractures.

I would have thought Graham Dwyers fantasies came later in life after he had been sexually active for a while, but that story seems to say different.

volchitsa

Suckit wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/graham-dwyer-trial/as-a-child-graham-dwyer-pushed-boyhood-pal-off-roof-31335143.html


I would have thought Graham Dwyers fantasies came later in life after he had been sexually active for a while, but that story seems to say different.

Which is why it's a mistake to dismiss wanton cruelty by children or teens as being part of normal experimentation.

Road-Hog

volchitsa wrote: »

Which is why it's a mistake to dismiss wanton cruelty by children or teens as being part of normal experimentation

How many other graham dwyers are there floating around in society...? Potentially 100’s...?

volchitsa

Road-Hog wrote: »

How many other graham dwyers are there floating around in society...? Potentially 100’s...?

No idea. Point is, if they were identified and given psychological help much earlier, a number of tragedies might be avoided. Just lumping it all together as "kids experimenting" when some of it is much more sinister prevents that happening IMO.

AndrewJRenko

Road-Hog wrote: »

Graham Dwyer obviously got through school and a significant part of his adult life ‘appearing normal’ to most of his peers apart from being narcissistic and obsessed with status. He was able to hide his extremely deviant/perverted/sicko side very well and but for some rare weather events and diligent police/dectective work would probably still be amongst us.

Just to be clear, there are many people involved in the BSDM/fetish scene, possibly what you're describing as 'extremely deviant/perverted/sicko' who are much more concerned about the importance of consent than the average couple hooking up in Coppers on a Saturday night. It is possible to be extremely deviant/perverted/sicko and extremely legal.

Road-Hog wrote: »

How many other graham dwyers are there floating around in society...? Potentially 100’s...?

Given that there aren't 100's of women being killed each year, probably very, very few.

volchitsa

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just to be clear, there are many people involved in the BSDM/fetish scene, possibly what you're describing as 'extremely deviant/perverted/sicko' who are much more concerned about the importance of consent than the average couple hooking up in Coppers on a Saturday night. It is possible to be extremely deviant/perverted/sicko and extremely legal.



Given that there aren't 100's of women being killed each year, probably very, very few.

I realise you're limiting your definition to BDSM-type killings, and since this is in a thread about a different kind of murder, I think it should really cover all the forms of sexual and "intimate partner" killings of women and girls by men.

Ireland's a small country, so there won't be hundreds either, but these men don't kill a woman every year, so there are probably more than a handful. I saw a report on (I think) the BBC about a family trying to get a murder accusation against the ex partner of their daughter who died during what he describes as consensual rough sex, and their problem is that a significant number of men get way every year with "accidentally" killing a woman during what they then describe as consensual sex. Their laws said there is not such thing as consent to be harmed, and yet the DPP just refuse to take these cases to court at all, to test whether the woman actually consented to any degree of harm at all.

Add that to the number of women killed by partners or ex partners during a row or whatever (over a hundred every year in England alone) and there are a lot of men being violent to women, and often getting away with it. Even though it's still only a small minority of all men.

(Before I get accused of being anti-man, I'm really not. It's a specific issue to my mind, not a general one. It always surprises me to hear men get so defensive over other men being violent to women. If they aren't violent themselves, why should they feel any need to defend these men at all? That seems to me to be exact.y what those relatively few violent men want - to make out that it's just "something that men do", when it's not.)

AndrewJRenko

volchitsa wrote: »

I realise you're limiting your definition to BDSM-type killings, and since this is in a thread about a different kind of murder, I think it should really cover all the forms of sexual and "intimate partner" killings of women and girls by men.

I wasn't really limiting it to BSDM in my mind, but was more thinking about the kind of violent, possibly serial killings that we've seen in the Leinster region.


I wasn't thinking about family/partner situations, which while no less serious or important, are a different area really.

volchitsa

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I wasn't really limiting it to BSDM in my mind, but was more thinking about the kind of violent, possibly serial killings that we've seen in the Leinster region.


I wasn't thinking about family/partner situations, which while no less serious or important, are a different area really.

Well, you mentioned BDSM in the same post, and you were talking about Graham Dwyer, so you know, seems kind of hard to avoid that.

The point being whether boys like A and B could eventually become either Graham Dwyer types if they weren't caught first, or indeed the sort of serial killers you are referring to.

In the absence of definitive evidence to the contrary, I'd be inclined to take a wider view of it, because one of the few things we do know about them is that there is a common aspect of male perpetrators and female victims.

howamidifferent

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/teenage-boy-who-tried-to-murder-woman-sentenced-to-11-years-38658549.html

Hopefully this will mean a life sentence for these two degenerates. :mad:

suicide_circus

yeah 11 years for attempted murder by a 15 year old sets a promising precedent

Gadgetman496

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah 11 years for attempted murder by a 15 year old sets a promising precedent

Backdated with a review in 5 years doesn't though!

tuxy

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Backdated with a review in 5 years doesn't though!

So not sentence to 11 years at all but given a life sentence with 7 years served before review? A fairly typical sentence in such a case.
Of course the guilty being under 18 does make it somewhat unusual because they got much the same sentence as someone older would have received.

KWAG2019

The annual report of the Parole Board makes interesting reading. Average time served for “life” sentence is 18 years. Number of lifers sent back to prison for breach of license (hope I’m getting the jargon right) varies from year to year, 1 to 5. Couldn’t see any indication of length served after return or procedures governing return after release on license.

DeconSheridan

Id vote yes to bring back the death penalty for such crimes.

Road-Hog

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just to be clear, there are many people involved in the BSDM/fetish scene, possibly what you're describing as 'extremely deviant/perverted/sicko' who are much more concerned about the importance of consent than the average couple hooking up in Coppers on a Saturday night. It is possible to be extremely deviant/perverted/sicko and extremely legal.



Given that there aren't 100's of women being killed each year, probably very, very few.

There is BDSM and Probably extreme BDSM and then mr dwyers totally deviant sicko perverted version.....ie knife play, drawing blood and ultimately wanting to draw so much blood while ejaculating that you end up deliberately killing your victim.......are you suggesting that you can get consent from a partner/victim for murder.....? I never described those into BDSM as sicko perverted deviants I was reserving that for the ‘Dwyer-types’ out there............he should never be realeased as he represents such a threat to society as would ‘abomination A and B’ in this case I would think utterly unreformable but no matter what sentance they are given some ‘professional’ will no doubt assess them, classify them as ‘cured’ and they will get back their ‘liberty’ in less than ten years.😡😡