Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Letwin_Larry

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Why are you tarring all society with the same brush as these boys ? The vast majority of society does not think like that ? I deal with teens who certainely cannot be associated or tarred with the same brush as these murdering thugs

totally agree. you cannot and should judge normal society, through the prism of these freaks.
there are countless fantastic young people in this country and to compare them with these 2 $hitbags, is like comparing Christy Hennessy to Pol Pot.

NewClareman

smelly sock wrote: »

I think there is obviously serious psychological issues at play... No way can anyway be right in the head to commit a premeditated crime like that...

I agree fully with this part of your post. The challenge then is to understand what factors influenced this behaviour and how they can be addressed.

It’s all too easy to take a ”lock them up and throw away the key”, approach. Even if it were appropriate for the two boys, and I don’t agree that it is, it doesn’t address the broader issue of why they did this.

There is a very good article in today’s Irish Times, on factors may have contributed to this tragedy. Some extracts:

“Less easy to discount as a factor is the huge amount of, sometimes violent, pornography consumed by Boy A.” What efforts have all of made to restrict access to this deluge?

“... there is a growing consensus that unfettered access to extreme pornography from a young age can be highly destructive.“ What steps are parents/schools/authorities taking to educate and prepare young minds in relation to this?

“... Indeed, just on Monday the Central Criminal Court sentenced a boy who was 14 when he attempted to murder a woman in Dún Laoghaire. His mother told the court she had tried in vain to get her son inpatient care prior to the attack.
“A lot of it is unchecked, un-met, undiagnosed psychological difficulties.” Ana’s murder “should be a wake-up call”, Noble says.”

We all have a stake in the type of society our children and grandchildren are growing up in. In my option we are all failing them when the type of material referred to in the article is widely available, without any public outcry.

tuxy

omega man wrote: »

Nothing would surprise me with our justice system. Further torment for poor Anna’s family now.

Which country has a legal system that we could model ours on?

martingriff

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The state is choosing not to tell, by granting them anonymity. Therefore should they re-offend the state will be complicit as far as i'm concerned. For A, ever letting them out and B, helping them conceal their pasts

The usual argument for anonymity is to protect the victim, say in a rape case where the victim doesn't want to be identified by association - and that's fine to a degree although i do think it endangers others, but to spare any more suffering by the victim that's a reasonable payoff.

Anna can't be spared anything so that's not an argument, i don't believe the 2 pieces of shít who killed her should be spared anything.

By the way I am not disagreeing they should be named. But then what all you have are names until if they get released. That will be a long time hopefully. Then what all you have a name nothing what they look like. These 2 should becoming nothings to people instead they are getting 2 much coverage

splinter65

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Anna was worth millions more than them. A fact they miscalculated badly.

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

FishOnABike

tuxy wrote: »

Was it the boys family or the solicitor that said they didn't accept the verdict when it was announced? So unfortunately there was always a high chance of this.

Some of the juries decision was based on interpretation and not hard facts. The jury made the right call but boy B has nothing to lose by attempting an appeal.

An appeal could also result in a longer sentence.

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

I don't know about that!

The judge clearly stated yesterday when he addressed them directly that they had a lot of work to do to show they accepted what they had done in order to have any chance when they eventually face the review board.

This could equally apply to an appeal. If convicted on appeal the further failure to accept what he had done and put Ana's family through more pain in the process, could be viewed as a compounding factor and the lack of remorse shown result in a longer sentence.

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

Once again ridiculous generalisation

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Once again ridiculous generalisation

No it’s not. There’s quite a sizeable amount of very very very shallow young people who cannot appraise others in any other way other then social media levels

Hannibal_Smith

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Boy 'B' to appeal his conviction.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/boy-b-now-expected-to-appeal-his-conviction-for-murder-38665932.html

That's no surprise and certainly a lot of people on this thread suspected this would happen.

I wonder what grounds he'll be appealing on. I wonder whether Ana's Kriegels family are starting to think this is their life now. Their daughter is murdered and they have to deal these two muppets who seem to think they're the victims in it all :mad: They were all brave and sure of themselves when they decided to sexually assault and murder her. Spineless little weasels now that they face a hardship because of it.

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

No it’s not. There’s quite a sizeable amount of very very very shallow young people who cannot appraise others in any other way other then social media levels

And a sizeable amount of great young people who simply do not deserve to be lumped in and tarred with the same brush . I think its a dreadful statement to make about a whole generation
I visit my mam in a care home and deal with wonderful young people who volunteer to read to the elderly patients . Another group come in and sing to them or play board games

And this is repeated all over the country by various young groups of people
Please don’t put them all down as its grossly unfair

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

No it’s not. There’s quite a sizeable amount of very very very shallow young people who cannot appraise others in any other way other then social media levels

No. Sorry, that's completely unfair. You can't generalise teenagers as a whole on the basis of these two. There are far more decent teenagers out there, who understand and value others outside of social medial. There are plenty of teenagers in our GAA club who volunteer their time and do excellent work in the club and I'm sure our sports hall isn't the only one like this.

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And a sizeable amount of great young people who simply do not deserve to be lumped in and tarred with the same brush . I think its a dreadful statement to make about a whole generation
I visit my mam in a care home and deal with wonderful young people who volunteer to read to the elderly patients . Another group come in and sing to them or play board games

And this is repeated all over the country by various young groups of people
Please don’t put them all down as its grossly unfair

I haven’t generalised. Please show me where I generalised? Thank you.

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

No. Sorry, that's completely unfair. You can't generalise teenagers as a whole on the basis of these two. There are far more decent teenagers out there, who understand and value others outside of social medial. There are plenty of teenagers in our GAA club who volunteer their time and do excellent work in the club and I'm sure our sports hall isn't the only one like this.

Once again. Please point out where I have generalised. Thank you.

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

I haven’t generalised. Please show me where I generalised? Thank you.

I quote some of your posts
““ a sizaeable amount of young people “ “

“”“ This is now a society where humans don’t have any value or worth just by dint of being humans.””





Have you statistics or links or proof that a sizeable amount of young people are shallow and mean spirited ?

Thankfully the young people around me and who I deal with are far from shallow and mean spirited . There are large amount of young people talking part in caring activities and volunteering . Give them some credit

ohnonotgmail

FishOnABike wrote: »

An appeal could also result in a longer sentence.






This could equally apply to an appeal. If convicted on appeal the further failure to accept what he had done and put Ana's family through more pain in the process, could be viewed as a compounding factor and the lack of remorse shown result in a longer sentence.

That depends on whether he appeals againt the conviction or the sentence. If he appeals only against the conviction and his appeal fails then the original sentence will stand.

P.Walnuts

splinter65 wrote: »

Once again. Please point out where I have generalised. Thank you.

Are you capable of reading your own posts?

sbsquarepants

martingriff wrote: »

These 2 should becoming nothings to people instead they are getting 2 much coverage

I think it's in no one's interest to allow scum like this to fade into the background now that they've exposed themselves.

KWAG2019

Leaving aside the issue of the justice system and the urgent reform of the dominant ideology which has created the sentencing and parole regime we have endured the discussion is moving on to other aspects of this. To me there are a few things that need to be looked at.
These children had all finished national school and were in second level. They all had experience of years of anti bullying programs. There seems to be a major system failure of such programs when the isolation experienced before the murder was so long and so widespread. The murder seems to be an out working of that isolation. Please read this carefully: I am talking about a national system wide program not a school or schools. There may be more terribly isolated suffering children out there.

Access to violent porn. I don’t know if everything I read is true but Boy A had this and Boy B didn’t. Boy B had lost two smartphones? Losing a phone wouldn’t necessarily mean sites visited couldn’t be checked. I believe smartphone usage by NS and early years teenagers is at the root of a lot of grief. Teens by definition do not have developed the empathy and inhibitions of adults. Online chat is contextless and personless and social media enables and amplifies whatever trend is there. You can’t blame children for this: you can see it anywhere. You can ask why have children such devices in the first place. They enable unsupervised access.

I’m not saying there aren’t other issues. These are what hit me. And that house should be CPOed and demolished.

shesty

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

I dont think most rational teenagers would see someone as 'having to go' .That is a very extreme end of reacting to disliking someone, and not normal.For adults or teens.

iamwhoiam

shesty wrote: »

I dont think most rational teenagers would see someone as 'having to go' .That is a very extreme end of reacting to disliking someone, and not normal.For adults or teens.

Of course they wouldn’t . These two boys were an exception , a nasty , murdering , abusive and thuggish exception

mrjoneill

unkel wrote: »

So boy A is now on the sex offenders list. I seem to remember there is a duration for this, depending on the severity of the crime? If so, presumably in this case for life?

Let's presume he at some stage is released and gets a new identity. I would then presume he is placed again on the sex offenders list under his new name?

These sex offenders lists are not public?

Will this boy be forced to have psychiatric treatment during his detention? Or chemical castration?

Apologies for what seems like a random list of questions, but I am concerned about what happens if / when he is released. I'm usually fairly liberal in my views, but someone who has done what he has should never be let out imho unless we are near certain he won't do it again.

I understand Animal A will get a lifetime on Sex Offenders Register. What I'm not sure on has this animal received a life sentence or a reviewable one after 8 yrs.

jackboy

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Have you statistics or links or proof that a sizeable amount of young people are shallow and mean spirited ?

Thankfully the young people around me and who I deal with are far from shallow and mean spirited . There are large amount of young people talking part in caring activities and volunteering . Give them some credit

She was subjected to horrific bullying. She was isolated and almost no one her age would interact with her in or out of school. Of course not all teenagers are bad, not even close. However there is a serious issue with bullying in irish schools and there have been lots of suicides down to this. The bullies put the target on her back and it is likely that she would be alive today if that bullying had not occured.

iamwhoiam

jackboy wrote: »

She was subjected to horrific bullying. She was isolated and almost no one her age would interact with her in or out of school. Of course not all teenagers are bad, not even close. However there is a serious issue with bullying in irish schools and there have been lots of suicides down to this. The bullies put the target on her back and it is likely that she would be alive today if that bullying had not occured.

Yes. I know that and it was horrendous . My objection with the poster was the generalisation that it was “ society at large” were like that .

The very sad part was that a teacher pre warned her mum and the mum told the school in advance that Ana was vulnerable . My question would be what did the school do to prevent such awful bullying . No child should suffer it and schools need to gain a handle on it

mrjoneill

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Of course they wouldn’t . These two boys were an exception , a nasty , murdering , abusive and thuggish exception

Yes indeed there is something extraordinary savage about both of them & how cunning they have avoided their responsibility & to telling the truth. Animal B maintains his innocence in spite of what was a plan to lure Ana to her death. To lure her so far from her home to an abandoned house only adds to his culpability. Animal A grudgingly accepts he did the murder but not the sexual assault as if it was a stranger did it despite the forensics indicating he was the one. Society needs to be protected from such twisted evil. As I stated earlier I hope their release will be when infirm & using walking frames. Even Animal A grandfather does not accept his "pet" is the one responsible for this awful evil

mrjoneill

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes. I know that and it was horrendous . My objection with the poster was the generalisation that it was “ society at large” were like that .

The very sad part was that a teacher pre warned her mum and the mum told the school in advance that Ana was vulnerable . My question would be what did the school do to prevent such awful bullying . No child should suffer it and schools need to gain a handle on it

The school did very little if nothing at all. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left. I also understand Animal A & B were the more overt edge of the bullying. That is the reason Ana mother was so alarmed when she heard Animal B called to the house for her. Yes indeed there is many searching questions for the school to answer & the same for her class peers. I have no doubt because of the bullying Animal A & B though of her as worthless.

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

Once again. Please point out where I have generalised. Thank you.

Go back and read over your own posts.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

Errant "moral panic" nonsense. There'd be dozens of similar killings every year were that the case.

NewClareman

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

That's no surprise and certainly a lot of people on this thread suspected this would happen.

I wonder what grounds he'll be appealing on.

Well for a start:

Gregg McCrary, a behavioural criminologist and former FBI criminal profiler, has worked on many such investigations. “Typically there is a dominant offender and then a secondary offender who is subservient and follows their lead. They take direction from the dominant offender,” he says.

“Evidence indicates that Boy B was subservient to Boy A....
There is also evidence Boy B was and remains in fear of his co-accused.”

Quoting above from the same IT article I quoted earlier.

The judge stated that there was no evidence that he was involved in the attack, or knew in advance she was to be sexually assaulted. Of course the fact that he did nothing to help her was reprehensible. However, he was a child and might well have been panicked and in fear.

storker

mrjoneill wrote: »

. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left.

Disgusting little scumbags.

NewClareman

mrjoneill wrote: »

The school did very little if nothing at all. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left. I also understand Animal A & B were the more overt edge of the bullying. That is the reason Ana mother was so alarmed when she heard Animal B called to the house for her. Yes indeed there is many searching questions for the school to answer & the same for her class peers. I have no doubt because of the bullying Animal A & B though of her as worthless.

Exactly, a lot of questions to be asked of the school, Ana’s peers, and their parents. However, it is much easier to just blame the ‘Animals’, rather than considering how things were allowed to get this far.

If, as suggested, a brother of Boy B was assaulted, then the various other parties implicated are still not living up to their responsibilities.