Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

RandomName2

NewClareman wrote: »

And what would you propose for all those other people who stood by while Ana was bullied and her life made a misery?

That's actually quite a relevant question that I haven't heard anybody ask yet.

mrjoneill

NewClareman wrote: »

I can see where you’re coming from, but that might not always be an option. Neither is there any guarantee that the next school will be better. There simply isn’t sufficient interest, amongst the general population, to ensure that this area is tackled, once and for all.

It is now 14 years since I was involved with a secondary school, so my personal knowledge is dated. In my experience, only severe bullying behaviour was raised at board of management level. Here, it was extremely difficult to create any meaningful sanction against ringleaders and teachers and staff were in a very tough situation.

A lasting tribute to Ana would be to demand that schools are safe environments for everyone. Bullying should be an item on the agenda at every Parents Council and Board of Management meeting. It should be part of whole school evaluations and tracked at school, region and national level. Even minor instances of bullying should not be tolerated, avoiding any possible escalation.

Absolutely bullying has to be top of the agenda in school staff meetings and following through with BoM. The advent of social media has made that imperative as it can be now 24/7. Having immediate sanction where such is established need prioritizing. School bullying does not only apply to schoolkids but teachers have suffered too. I have heard teachers tell of snide "under the breath" remarks being made of "******" & other disparaging remarks to pregnant teachers. I know of a teacher who left the profession over constant snide remarks to a presumption of his sexuality. I have heard female teachers tell of being put in fear of being sexually assaulted. And the bullying does not necessitate direct attacks but insidious in setting up fake profiles on sex cruising sites with the picture of the victim with attached sexual explicit pictures pretending they are of the victim. In one case recently before the courts a whole class of schoolgirls were put on a sex cruising site with their faces and fake sexual images.



The education system needs to look at itself again on being more proactive, sending a clear message that bullies wont be tolerated and schools getting the powers to deal effectively with them. There needs to be closer contact with teachers and student in having a class teacher, and a hierarchy of year teacher etc so there is interfaces where complaints can be made & heard informally where the issue is transient and minor before it escalates and then having a formal system in place for escalation. But for most of our schools student they want to get on with life, get an education to get the points in their leaving and go onto third level for the course of their choice. They don't want to be held back either by needless foolery.



The present sys is loaded in the students favour in appeals to the Dep of Education & judicial reviews. Perhaps a streamlining of this is necessary and the instilling into kids who are bullied the necessity to keep records, emails, screenshots, incidents-dates and times etc so that a substantial case can be presented so it can stand up when a complaint is made and if necessary to involve the Gardai in tracking down the origins of messages etc and interviewing the offenders. This present case shows the difficulties invol in dealing with what are compulsive liars & their inability to face up to the facts in which mammy's little boys are in reality monsters.



Let us hope lessons have been learnt in this very hard case.

History Queen

jackboy wrote: »

Because the whole system is built so that authorities and schools can say that there is a system in place. It is not a serious attempt to eliminate or reduce bullying. That would take unpalatable actions which will never happen.

Wrong. Teacher here. The whole system is built so that every child is "entitled to an education". Never mind that some children refuse to behave in a way that allows teachers to teach and others to learn. Some parents support sanctions put in place by schools, others fight us every step of the way.

It is very very difficult to expel students in spite of repeated bad behaviour such as bullying and expulsions are overturned more often than not.

I may sound defensive but surely people can see that it is not in any school's interests to allow bullying to continue? We want safe secure environments not just for our students, but also for ourselves to work in. We do our best to prevent/discourage and address bullying in the school but what are we to do about online bullying and the behaviour of students on social media? We cannot police everything. Remember we are meant to be teaching not parenting/policing.

jackboy

History Queen wrote: »

Wrong. Teacher here. The whole system is built so that every child is "entitled to an education". Never mind that some children refuse to behave in a way that allows teachers to teach and others to learn. Some parents support sanctions put in place by schools, others fight us every step of the way.

It is very very difficult to expel students in spite of repeated bad behaviour such as bullying and expulsions are overturned more often than not.

I may sound defensive but surely people can see that it is not in any school's interests to allow bullying to continue? We want safe secure environments not just for our students, but also for ourselves to work in. We do our best to prevent/discourage and address bullying in the school but what are we to do about online bullying and the behaviour of students on social media? We cannot police everything. Remember we are meant to be teaching not parenting/policing.

Well if the system as it is means that it is very difficult to expel bullies then the system is worse than useless. Essentially bullies just get a slap on the wrist until after they do something extreme. In other words bullies are indirectly given consent to bully.

aslanroars

My son is actualy starting in that school next sept.open day next wed. My son's mom said I shouldn't approach the school on bullying polices.

banie01

aslanroars wrote: »

My son is actualy starting in that school next sept.open day next wed. My son's mom said I shouldn't approach the school on bullying polices.

The school will have anti-bullying and safeguarding policies available for review on their site and at their open day.
Approaching the school on their bullying policy, without your son currently being a pupil or indeed without an "active" bullying issue at play strikes me as ironic.
In that you would be seeking confrontation with someone who no doubt has already been through the wringer regarding the lack of implementation or action of their policy in Ana's instance.

It's quite easy for any school to pay lip service to their policies, it's quite a bit more difficult for a school to acknowledge their failings and address them.
I would be very surprised if the policy was not addressed at the open night, but I fail to see what benefit it will bring you other than brownie points from some folk.

KWAG2019

History Queen wrote: »

Wrong. Teacher here. The whole system is built so that every child is "entitled to an education". Never mind that some children refuse to behave in a way that allows teachers to teach and others to learn. Some parents support sanctions put in place by schools, others fight us every step of the way.

It is very very difficult to expel students in spite of repeated bad behaviour such as bullying and expulsions are overturned more often than not.

I may sound defensive but surely people can see that it is not in any school's interests to allow bullying to continue? We want safe secure environments not just for our students, but also for ourselves to work in. We do our best to prevent/discourage and address bullying in the school but what are we to do about online bullying and the behaviour of students on social media? We cannot police everything. Remember we are meant to be teaching not parenting/policing.

I'm afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick. If you look at posts 6717 and 6718 you will see that Jack was replying to a post of mine discussing the system of anti bullying programs and policies following from a post by newclare. I didn't refer to the purpose of the education system, merely the anti bullying aspect.

Expulsions depend on the BOM deciding them; in certain sectors of 2nd level education system they are more difficult than others. I don't have overall stats about overturned BOM decisions on expulsion but my memory which I admit can be less than it used to be is that the majority of appeals against them are lost. The only stats readily to hand: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2017-10-24/141/#pq-answers-139_140_141_142_143_144

The behaviour of students on social media is a huge part of the problem. Phones Phones Phones. (I've enough on the thread already)

I take your point about the role of the teacher at 2nd level. There is a real sense in which the job has morphed into a much more socially supportive one than an academic one. I assume you have the same situation as other public services: grandiose announcements by ministers but no resources to back it up. Maybe you're expected to be magicians too.

Teachers have had enormous bad pr the last while, some of it self inflicted. I believe the vast majority of you do enormous good. I still think of some of mine at 2nd and 3rd level with great gratitude.

sbsquarepants

NewClareman wrote: »

Those who allowed them access to unsuitable material, at a young age. Those who allowed bullying behaviour to continually escalate...

This is the kind of thing i was speaking about earlier - some people are just bad to the bone and there is a trend these days to ignore this and make excuses for it. These 2 are scum, they were born scum and they will die scum.

The teachers certainly didn't cover themselves in glory, but in reality they can only do so much.

Their parents, i've no idea what their home lives were like but B's father is clearly a fúcking arsehole so i doubt he helped matters in any way at a bare minimum.

But ultimately practically all the responsibilty (99%+) lies with the 2 pieces of **** themselves. They are just bad people. They won't ever be anything else, and that's why they should never see the outside of a cage again.

NewClareman

History Queen wrote: »

Wrong. Teacher here. The whole system is built so that every child is "entitled to an education". Never mind that some children refuse to behave in a way that allows teachers to teach and others to learn. Some parents support sanctions put in place by schools, others fight us every step of the way.

It is very very difficult to expel students in spite of repeated bad behaviour such as bullying and expulsions are overturned more often than not.

Like I said before, my own experience with secondary schools is historical. I agree that it is very difficult, though not impossible, to suspend, let alone expel, a student. More affluent parents were not afraid to “lawyer up” while other parents used any means at their disposal to protect their wronged little darling. (Recent experience, albeit at 3rd level, would indicate that teaching is now more challenging than ever.)
Having said all that, effective school management can transform a situation. I’ve twice seen the effect of zero tolerance for bad behaviour, led from the front by inspiring principals. It took time, and grit, on their part. It also meant making sure that all children were treated in a respectful and fair manner, by all school staff, regardless of the students background or parental status. Favouritism, or special treatment of any form, was simply not tolerated.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

...more over heated "moral panic" hyperbole with a complete disregard for the facts.

How is it moral panic? You want us to believe that this shiny new Ireland is one of compassion equality love and forgiveness, care for the most vulnerable in our society and freedom to live your life as you choose?
Show me the evidence.

sasta le

aslanroars wrote: »

My son is actualy starting in that school next sept.open day next wed. My son's mom said I shouldn't approach the school on bullying polices.

Shouldn’t??Why?

volchitsa

sasta le wrote: »

Shouldn’t??Why?

If I were the other parent, I'd say the same. It's aggressive and unnecessary.

Because I think it's fairly obvious that if any school can ever be effective against bullying, that is the school that is going to be on top of the problem.

If they can't put a stop to bullying at this stage, when the parents and children as well as the school, have been so closely affected, then anti bullying policies are probably just useless.

It's a useful question to put to other schools. Asking it in public at an open day at the school that was directly concerned is basically accusing them of not caring even after the fact. Because no matter what they put in place, they can't guarantee there will be zero bullying, so they are bound to feel they are being attacked over their past failure. Not a great start for incoming parents I'd have thought.

pc7

aslanroars wrote: »

My son is actualy starting in that school next sept.open day next wed. My son's mom said I shouldn't approach the school on bullying polices.

I would say they probably now have the best anti-bullying set up of any school

marieholmfan

pc7 wrote: »

I would say they probably now have the best anti-bullying set up of any school

They will have good policies but unless there has been a clear out of teaching staff why believe that those policies will be implemented?

tuxy

Is bullying an evolutionary trait? Things like that can be very difficult to create policies to prevent.

KWAG2019

marieholmfan wrote: »

They will have good policies but unless there has been a clear out of teaching staff why believe that those policies will be implemented?

The real worry and I think much more likely is that they were implemented. And failed.

mariaalice

tuxy wrote: »

Is bullying an evolutionary trait? Things like that can be very difficult to create policies to prevent.

I intervened in bullying incident involving 4 little girls aged 6 to 8, did the usual adult thing told them its not nice, they should paly nice, dont be mean anyway two of the girls had the grace to look ashamed but the not the Queen B of the group, if she is like that at aged say 7 what will she be like as a teenager

A few week ago I came across a sort of nerdy looking male teen with a nerdy-looking girl walking home from school a few young lads walk around them saying things like is she your girlfriend while making monkey sounds and sniggering and laughing, they stoped when they say me. The two who were the target just keep their heads up and ingnored the bullies.

These are young people and children who would have received talks and workshops ad Infinitum about bullying, yet it's still happening.

Why.

BattleCorp

mariaalice wrote: »

These are young people and children who would have received talks and workshops ad Infinitum about bullying, yet it's still happening.

Why.

You think a few workshops is going to get rid of bullying?

mariaalice

BattleCorp wrote: »

You think a few workshops is going to get rid of bullying?

No of course not, but what is your answer.

tigger123

pc7 wrote: »

I would say they probably now have the best anti-bullying set up of any school

No harm in asking the school about it though. If I were sending a teenager there I'd want to know the changes they're making to address it.

mrjoneill

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is the kind of thing i was speaking about earlier - some people are just bad to the bone and there is a trend these days to ignore this and make excuses for it. These 2 are scum, they were born scum and they will die scum.

The teachers certainly didn't cover themselves in glory, but in reality they can only do so much.

Their parents, i've no idea what their home lives were like but B's father is clearly a fúcking arsehole so i doubt he helped matters in any way at a bare minimum.

But ultimately practically all the responsibilty (99%+) lies with the 2 pieces of **** themselves. They are just bad people. They won't ever be anything else, and that's why they should never see the outside of a cage again.

Yes indeed 100% agree no school could accommodate these 2 pieces of filth. Just cant get my head around the savagery of the assault for 13yr old; vicious beating about the head causing broken eye socket & serious head injury & then following on repeatedly striking with a concrete block about the head, on a beautiful innocent classmate. And not satisfied with that, while Ana unconscious sexually assaulted her. And these 2 led the bullying in school. Society will need to be forever protected from this evil.


For the school in question the problem was there they totally failed to address it. They got prior warning of the vulnerability of Ana and they did little or nothing about it. They had an anti-bullying policy in place yet they failed to implement it, as I believe its on the walls of every classroom. The school in question inc peers of Ana they all have a culpability in this but the final culpability rest with the 2 pieces of filth.

mrjoneill

pc7 wrote: »

I would say they probably now have the best anti-bullying set up of any school

Had an anti-bullying policy but did not effectively implement, prob now best implemented school.

BattleCorp

mariaalice wrote: »

No of course not, but what is your answer.

I replied in such a manner because I felt your statement below seemed a bit naive.

These are young people and children who would have received talks and workshops ad Infinitum about bullying, yet it's still happening.

I don't believe there is a 100% effective solution to bullying. I think it will always be present in society. We can try and reduce it as much as possible, but I can't see it ever being eradicated.

Classes may be one way to try and minimise it. But that won't be effective on its own. We need parents and society in general doing their bit, but in this age of no personal responsibility, it's hard to see it being tackled effectively.

skallywag

mariaalice wrote: »

No of course not, but what is your answer.

I do not think that there is one unfortunately, and it will always go on to some extent. I was bullied at school, I still think about it from time to time, I just put my head down and got on with it as best I could. I have confronted some of those involved many years afterwards and have somehow managed to get some closure.

I think the problem is always going to be there. People, kids in particular, are always going to be jealous of someone who can do something that they cannot, or who is simply different, etc.

Gadgetman496

Earliest release dates for Kriégel killers revealed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1108/1089615-boy-a-boy-b/

tuxy

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Earliest release dates for Kriégel killers revealed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1108/1089615-boy-a-boy-b/

Yes that's what was expected based on the sentences, I guess the judge is making it very clear exactly what the process should be going forward.
I really hope that any denial of accountability even at this stage would be considered when the review comes up but it probably won't.

gimli2112

I think in the US the victims family are allowed to address the parole board anytime the issue arises. Have mixed feelings about this as it must make them relive the events all over again (not that they don't anyway) but maybe it helps them too in some way, it must have some impact on the decision.

mrjoneill

The changing face of schools, in the US the majority of schools have an armed police presence. Obv the proliferation of weapons is one of the issues there, having an armed police presence to deter armed violence but there are also the issues which becomes the duty of the police there assoc with schools in Irl & Brit such as bullying, drugs, violence. sexual assault, theft, enforcing rules & security implementation .
https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/prevalence-police-officers-us-schools

Road-Hog

mrjoneill wrote: »

Yes indeed 100% agree no school could accommodate these 2 pieces of filth. Just cant get my head around the savagery of the assault for 13yr old; vicious beating about the head causing broken eye socket & serious head injury & then following on repeatedly striking with a concrete block about the head, on a beautiful innocent classmate. And not satisfied with that, while Ana unconscious sexually assaulted her. And these 2 led the bullying in school. Society will need to be forever protected from this evil.


For the school in question the problem was there they totally failed to address it. They got prior warning of the vulnerability of Ana and they did little or nothing about it. They had an anti-bullying policy in place yet they failed to implement it, as I believe its on the walls of every classroom. The school in question inc peers of Ana they all have a culpability in this but the final culpability rest with the 2 pieces of filth.

I am on same page as you about these two ‘freaks’ but do we know they actually were classrooom/yard bullies....ddI they actively engage in bullying of Ana or were they more just the hard men of the yard/class that you didn’t mess with. Animal A definitely would appear to have been the latter...?

banie01

mrjoneill wrote: »

The changing face of schools, in the US the majority of schools have an armed police presence. Obv the proliferation of weapons is one of the issues there, having an armed police presence to deter armed violence but there are also the issues which becomes the duty of the police there assoc with schools in Irl & Brit such as bullying, drugs, violence. sexual assault, theft, enforcing rules & security implementation .
https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/prevalence-police-officers-us-schools

Are you seriously insinuating that we install police men in our schools?

The police presence in US schools is indicative of societal failure.
It's the most imprisoned population in the world, yet still incredibly violent.
Indeed the move from any police presence from being one of "Protectors" of the peace, to being active enforcers is something that is completely contrary to what our Gardaí are designed and indeed legislated to be.

Moving towards enforcing a modicum of societal norms by threat of force or police sanction is frankly ridiculous.