Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Caquas

Sardonicat wrote: »

What evidence? Are you suggesting there was other evidence presented that wasn't reported or are you putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5?

No, I’m referring to this:

A COPYBOOK containing a drawing entitled "satanic pledge" and a list of "rules" for a homework club was found by gardai in the home of a boy accused of murdering Ana Kriegel, a trial heard.
Detective Garda Donal Daly gave evidence this morning the copybook was seized by gardai after they searched Boy B's home.

Gda Daly said the copybook contained a list of names, including Boy A and Boy B's names, as well as a list of rules.

The rules included "no talking about Jesus or God, only Satan", the court heard.

http://https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-book-containing-satanic-pledge-found-in-room-of-boy-b-38160752.html

Not surprised that you didn’t know. When the trial was over, our media was filled with useless handwringing about this appalling murder but only the British media took notice of the sole piece of evidence pointing to motive.

Sardonicat

Caquas wrote: »

No, I’m referring to this:


http://https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-book-containing-satanic-pledge-found-in-room-of-boy-b-38160752.html

When the trial was over, our media was filled with useless handwringing about this appalling murder analysis but only the British media took notice of the only piece of evidence pointing to motive.

Oh for God's sake. I used to draw swastikas all over everything. I was never and never will be a Nazi, fascist, white supremacist or racist. The opposite in fact.

pearcider

Sardonicat wrote: »

Oh for God's sake. I used to draw swastikas all over everything. I was never and never will be a Nazi, fascist, white supremacist or racist. The opposite in fact.

The obvious difference being you didn’t brutally murder someone. A satanic pledge doesn’t sound like normal teenage behaviour to me. Colour me surprised the media glossed over the fact.

volchitsa

pearcider wrote: »

The obvious difference being you didn’t brutally murder someone. A satanic pledge doesn’t sound like normal teenage behaviour to me. Colour me surprised the media glossed over the fact.

That makes no sense, you're basically just retrofitting something that you agree is meaningless in itself to make it into an explanation.

tuxy

Lots of kids take interest in the occult and satanic symbolism because they think it's edgy but soon grow out of it.

TheValeyard

tuxy wrote: »

Lots of kids take interest in the occult and satanic symbolism because they think it's edgy but soon grow out of it.

Well, there are a lot of sharp edges on pentagrams.

pearcider

volchitsa wrote: »

That makes no sense, you're basically just retrofitting something that you agree is meaningless in itself to make it into an explanation.

Uh what it’s your reply that makes no sense. I’m not retrofitting anything. I simply pointing out that sardonicat drawing Nazi symbols in his copy book is in no way comparable to sadistic murderers taking satanic pledges.

pearcider

tuxy wrote: »

Lots of kids take interest in the occult and satanic symbolism because they think it's edgy but soon grow out of it.

True but by the same logic lots of kids don’t go on to be sadistic murderers. I would say lots of kids mess around with ouija boards but taking satanic pledges is definitely not normal teenage behaviour.

volchitsa

pearcider wrote: »

Uh what it’s your reply that makes no sense. I’m not retrofitting anything. I simply pointing out that sardonicat drawing Nazi symbols in his copy book is in no way comparable to sadistic murderers taking satanic pledges.

No, you're giving an opinion, not stating a fact. They may well have had dyed hair as well, lots of troubled teens do - so would that mean that hair dying is an explanation for their actions, or would it be just another symptom of their feelings of marginalisation from "normal" society? Correlation is not causation.

What I mean by retrofitting is that you're picking up on a symptom that lots of teens demonstrate, you're dismissing it as significant for that vast majority of them because they haven't committed a crime, but for the two who have committed a crime, you're investing the same symptom with huge significance and you can't explain why. Except by the circular logic that they have committed a crime.

Fr_Dougal

Bobtheman wrote: »

My heart goes out to her parents. My heart goes out to the two young boys who will live with this case. Their parents. Their sentences

We can talk about what needs to be done etc
But there is a darkness within human beings. That spills out even in civilised society.
You are better off not trying to figure it out.
It's just there.
This will happen again. It's rare thank God
If only we got so outraged over child poverty

Jesus. I wonder if your heart would go out so quickly to those two scumbags if Ana was your child.

lozenges

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Jesus. I wonder if your heart would go out so quickly to those two scumbags if Ana was your child.

Yup. In a case like this I think the fact that the pair of them were from normal middle-class families, with no previous issues should actually be considered an aggravating factor instead of a mitigating one.

It wouldn't excuse it, but with children who have experienced neglect and abuse from a young age you can understand how they might see violence as normal, lash out and lack a sense of right and wrong. These two have done what they did while living a comfortable life with apparently loving families.

pearcider

volchitsa wrote: »

No, you're giving an opinion, not stating a fact. They may well have had dyed hair as well, lots of troubled teens do - so would that mean that hair dying is an explanation for their actions, or would it be just another symptom of their feelings of marginalisation from "normal" society? Correlation is not causation.

What I mean by retrofitting is that you're picking up on a symptom that lots of teens demonstrate, you're dismissing it as significant for that vast majority of them because they haven't committed a crime, but for the two who have committed a crime, you're investing the same symptom with huge significance and you can't explain why. Except by the circular logic that they have committed a crime.

Absolute rubbish. A satanic pledge is a lot more likely to lead to anti social or indeed sadistic behavior than dying your hair. You might want to read up on the Marquis of Sade where the word sadism comes from. Sadism is intimately related to the occult and to bizarre and deviant sexual behavior.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. A satanic pledge is a lot more likely to lead to anti social or indeed sadistic behavior than dying your hair. You might want to read up on the Marquis of Sade where the word sadism comes from. Sadism is intimately related to the occult and to bizarre and deviant sexual behavior.

I would be pretty sure the two boys in question would have no idea who the Marquis De Sade was. and sadism is not inherently related to the occult. One mans deviant is anothers vanilla.

pearcider

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I would be pretty sure the two boys in question would have no idea who the Marquis De Sade was. and sadism is not inherently related to the occult. One mans deviant is anothers vanilla.

I hope you never have kids.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

I hope you never have kids.

apologies for responding to your uninformed blather with facts.

pearcider

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

apologies for responding to your uninformed blather with facts.

You’re the one refusing to see the facts and pretending the two boys were not in fact sadists who had entered a pledge with Satan. Considering these facts, the subsequent horrific outcome for Ana is unsurprising. Stare into the abyss and eventually the abyss will stare back.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

You’re the one refusing to see the facts and pretending the two boys were not in fact sadists who had entered a pledge with Satan.

Its like the 1980s all over again.

Sardonicat

Sadism is linked to the occult!?

So anyone who fancies a couple of strokes across the backside with the back of a hairbrush is a devil worshipper now?

ohnonotgmail

Sardonicat wrote: »

Sadism is linked to the occult!?

So anyone who fancies a couple of strokes across the backside with the back of a hairbrush is a devil worshipper now?

apaprently so.

pearcider

Sardonicat wrote: »

Sadism is linked to the occult!?

So anyone who fancies a couple of strokes across the backside with the back of a hairbrush is a devil worshipper now?

Nice way to ignore a satanic pledge.

pearcider

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Its like the 1980s all over again.

So you have no argument except dumb comments. It’s the 80s alright and I’m in primary school in here.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

So you have no argument except dumb comments. It’s the 80s alright and I’m in primary school in here.

my argument is pretty simple. this "satanic pledge" is nonsense and irrelevant to the murder committed. they didnt kill any to please satanic. they did it because they are nasty ****s who thought they were smart enough to get away with it.

gozunda

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

my argument is pretty simple. this "satanic pledge" is nonsense and irrelevant to the murder committed. they didnt kill any to please satanic. they did it because they are nasty ****s who thought they were smart enough to get away with it.

Eitherway - if by even the smallest chance the two convicted murderers were into satanism ie thought it was cool or whatever - they should now have first class tickets to meet the man himself - presuming there is eternal damnation and all that.

Personally I like to see them experience hell here first and locked up in solitary for the rest of their miserable lives. I don't say that lightly...

Caquas

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

my argument is pretty simple. this "satanic pledge" is nonsense and irrelevant to the murder committed. they didnt kill any to please satanic. they did it because they are nasty ****s who thought they were smart enough to get away with it.

Your argument is simplistic and offers no answer to the basic question about this terrible crime - why? Calling these boys nasty explains nothing. There are many nasty people including plenty of nasty teenagers but not one of them ever set about the premeditated rape and murder of a young girl.

You dismiss the fact of a Satanic club as if it was just some kid dooodling swastikas. This was an elaborate scheme involving a number of boys with Satan as its guiding light. That is a very uncomfortable fact and the only evidence of motive at the trial.

tuxy

Caquas wrote: »

You dismiss the fact of a Satanic club as if it was just some kid dooodling swastikas. This was an elaborate scheme involving a number of boys with Satan as its guiding light. That is a very uncomfortable fact and the only evidence of motive at the trial.

As far as I know there was more than these two boys in this "club"
What happened to the other members?

tayto lover

Ah now I know Boy B’s grounds for appeal - “ Satan ordered us to kill her, nothing to really do with me, I was in a trance”.
Leave the wee murderers in Oberstown.

take everything

I don't know why people are reflexively dismissing the notion of an occult/satanic aspect to this crime.

In the seventies, a kid acting by himself, effectively crucified his younger next door neighbour in his attic in a ritualistic way and he showed interest in this stuff.

He is now, apparently, a member of the church in London. Bizarre but true.

These little assholes had a club FFS. So it isn't a stretch to think yes it may have influenced their thoughts. Ritual killing etc. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

Nothing mystical or magical.
Just two little ****heads justifying their urges with some occult stuff. Not beyond belief at all.

tuxy

take everything wrote: »

I don't know why people are reflexively dismissing the notion of an occult/satanic aspect to this crime.

In the seventies, a kid acting by himself, effectively crucified his younger next door neighbour in his attic in a ritualistic way and he showed interest in this stuff.

He is now, apparently, a member of the church in London. Bizarre but true.

These little assholes had a club FFS. So it isn't a stretch to think yes it may have influenced their thoughts. Ritual killing etc. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

Nothing mystical or magical.
Just two little ****heads justifying their urges with some occult stuff. Not beyond belief at all.

Not dismissing it, if it was not relevant the Garda would not have used important court time giving evidence on it.

Just saying that it is not something that is unusual for kids to be interested in.
Many of their hobbies and interests were not that usual and didn't stand out as such to others, which makes the case more shocking.

It's a bit like computer games, millions of kids playing the same game but one or two of them act it out in real life and do something horrific.

pearcider

tuxy wrote: »

Not dismissing it, if it was not relevant the Garda would not have used important court time giving evidence on it.

Just saying that it is not something that is unusual for kids to be interested in.
Many of their hobbies and interests were not that usual and didn't stand out as such to others, which makes the case more shocking.

It's a bit like computer games, millions of kids playing the same game but one or two of them act it out in real life and do something horrific.

It is very unusual to be in a satanic club. It’s a long way from playing halo online.

tuxy

pearcider wrote: »

It is very unusual to be in a satanic club. It’s a long way from playing halo online.

But an interest in the occult is not all that unusual.
With this club, how many members were there and what exactly was expected of each member?