Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

super_furry

weldoninhio wrote: »

And the state had evidence that they were not guilty, but witheld it. The judge did not know this.

Doesn't matter, they'd still be dead if you had your way and execution was an option.

MrFresh

theguzman wrote: »

Leftwing social democratic parties across Europe I was alluding to, you know the leftist SJW types who hate their own countries. The Macrons and Jeremy Corbyns of this world.

Can you have a bit of decency and not try push that agenda in this thread? No different to Coppinger and her blaming capitalism.

AAAAAAAAA

theguzman wrote: »

The move away from the Death Penalty worldwide was driven by Left Wing politicians since their murdering supporters kept getting executed for their crimes. Franco, Mussolini, Pinochet etc. all executed thousands of communists for their attempts to overthrow civil society. The Left would rather society become Somalia rather than bring back the Death Penalty because they know Conservatives will gladly use it against them.

Why are you framing the people trying to overthrow brutal dictators as the bad guys?

Ulysses Gaze

theguzman wrote: »

Leftwing social democratic parties across Europe I was alluding to, you know the leftist SJW types who hate their own countries. The Macrons and Jeremy Corbyns of this world.

FFS Macron is not Left Wing at all.

He is a corporatist, neo-liberal shill.

nehemiah

weldoninhio wrote: »

Do you believe the state has withheld evidence of the boys innocence in the case we are talking about in this thread??

State withholding evidence is not the only way a miscarriage of justice can take place.

Even now there is some legitimate doubt about the level of involvement of Boy B. We can all have a 'gut feeling' that he was involved more than he says he was and it's clear that he lied in his interviews but there's little more than that to go on.

That screwdriver killer scumbag was apparently drinking and taking drugs all day. He was provoked and amplified by having heard his father was in a row.
there was an altercation which finished in 2 young foreign me being brutally stabbed in the head with one blow! he should have the key thrown away but you can see how drink, drugs and generally being a dirt bag, were factors.

Now cut to these two..No drink...No drugs.. No call to arms in effort to aid a friend, sibling etc, so no real rush of blood to the head! They planned all of this and what's more, carried it out to completion.. inflicting over 50 injuries, any of which could have killed her, not to mention everything that happened after.
what they did was actually worse as they're younger and yet showed more hatred and evil towards a young girl than anyone would ever see in any film.

A so called child would lose the nerve maybe at the point when Ana showed. This is horrendous on an international scale, they're not children at all. Even when you skip an ATM que, it feels bad cos you know it's wrong. the judge will convict, the public will move on and with the passage of time, they'll be out in ten years easily because he's retired and the new guy is familiar with but not interested in seeing it followed through.

brendanwalsh

They are being named on twitter and pictures shared and you can't blame people for doing so.

They are two psychopaths and public safety is needed.

The Irish Times

So many heart punches while reading Conor Gallagher's summation of the case and trying to focus on the mindset of the murderers and the victim, but reading about Ana the person gives you a glimpse of just what was lost...

The Irish Times wrote:

We can say a lot more about Ana Kriégel. Her mother said she was a girl who loved to dance. She was part of the Leixlip based troupe Dance LA, whose members, decked in red headscarves and silver sequins formed a guard of honour at her funeral. Ana “spent hours in our front room, listening to music, practising her moves,” her mother said.

We can say Ana was a great singer and wanted to learn how to play guitar. We can say her Siberian strength and height made her an incredible swimmer. We can say that she loved to volunteer for things and shortly before her death Ana agreed to model in a fashion show organised by older classmates to raise money for charity.

Ana never lost touch with her Russian roots. A Russian flag and a matryoshka doll were placed on her coffin. Geraldine and Patric had announced their adoption of Ana in 2006 by handing their friends a similar doll containing her picture.

We can say she also loved her holidays to France, symbolised by the presence of a miniature Eiffel Tower on her coffin.

And we can say Ana loved her family dearly and was loved dearly in return. We can say she was someone who, as her funeral heard, was never happier than when she was curled up with her mother on a Sunday “watching some beautiful fairytale princess movie while munching her favourite food, popcorn”.

Creative, a singer, dancer, swimmer, tall and aerobic, outgoing, already had a fondness for international travel, was much loved and supported by her parents - She had as bright a future ahead of her as she wanted, the world was her oyster, once she got through some really tough formative years in 'the schoolyard'.

It's a modern worry and growing problem that school-related bullying now goes well beyond the schoolyard. FFS, even before she went into 1st year, Ana already had 3rd year students bullying her online. Hopefully Ana's plight brings this wholly toxic mixture of the old (bullying) and the new (social media) into national light and discourse where it can be addressed and looked towards dealing with.

Now, one can say that we we've always lived in harsh times, and modern Ireland is built on the blood of those who died in a relatively recent civil war and the even more recent Troubles, so no I'm not saying at all that the country is going to fúck lately. However, there was a very fúcked up two weeks in our recent history with three random violent murders to young people in May 2018 - Ana Kriégel, Cameron Reilly and Jastine Valdez.

Not to take anything away from the plights of other victims of tragedies, murders and avoidable suicides (those poor Gallagher sisters and family in Donegal for example) but those three murders in such a short time-span really rang out to me at the time and I've kept up with any progress in their cases since then. Two of those victims were lured to their ends and the other was abducted. Thankfully justice has been served in two out of three, and there is a suspect going to trial soon for the third.

Still, someday it would be nice to know the 'How?' behind such cases. How can young people commit such violent acts? How is there not a moment where a conscience and inner voice screams to you "Wait...WTF am I doing here?" How are these kids so desensitised to extreme violence and devoid of the notion of empathy or consequence? How can they have a "murder kit" and a plan to use it on anyone let alone someone who did them no harm?

Outside of all the above - Our Gardai as an organisation have no shortage of negative headlines and opinion in this day and age, but when they're very good they are the best. Thinking back to the Graham Dwyer case and how that was solved, looking at the work they did to get Ana's murderers brought to justice here. Not just the detectives in high profile cases, I myself needed some minor assistance recently and rank and file officers were on the scene well within 10 minutes.

This is the most tragic and possibly most horrific murder case I've read about within my lifetime in Ireland. I really hope Ana didn't go through all that torment and bullying and then meet such a gruesome and lonely end for nothing. I know that we can't force all of our kids to be friends with all other kids and love everyone else equally, but surely there has to be some way to minimise bullying and promote empathy. The 'Sure it happens, what can you do?' approach isn't working with bullying. That's the way it was handled when I was a kid back in the 80s/90s, and likely long before I was a kid as well. It isn't working, and in recent years you now have cases like Ana and the Gallagher sisters in Donegal who were plagued night and day beyond the schoolyard courtesy of social media. It has to be time to at least talk about a different way to tackle this.

RIP Ana Kriégel.

weldoninhio

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yet despite this you are still in favour of the death penalty.

I don't believe that the state would withhold evidence in this jurisdiction. The British Establishment was under severe pressure to find IRA bombers to calm public terror. Different times. But you know all of this already, don't you.

Lackadaisical

All this talk of the death penalty is reactionary nonsense. We abolished it completely by firstly not using it for many years, then by legislation and ultimately by referendum and constitutional amendment. It's also a criteria of membership of the EU and Council of Europe.

We don't have the death penalty because we're are better than that.

It's both risky in terms of potentially executing someone after a miscarriage of justice and that can't be undone. It debases and demeans society. We have to be better than killing people.

For all the angry talk that goes on in discussion forums, it would be carried out in the name of the people. So we the people would be killing people - in my view is you do that you lose your moral high ground. Also someone has to actually do it. In the early years of the state when we still actively sued capital punishment there was no hangman as nobody would do the job.

Justice has to be delivered calmly and dispassionately. It's not about reactionary vengeance no matter how angry and sickened we might be by a crime it's not about exacting medieval revenge.

Gerianam

Parents need to be parents. Our fourteen year old son, has access to his phone for one hour after dinner, he does not ask for any more because he knows it will not happen. Yesterday, he mowed his granny's front lawn and back garden, she gave him 10 euro. He bought sweets for himself and his little sister. I cannot underdstand how kids are allowed to have access depravity on line. The world is gone crazy.

ohnonotgmail

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don't believe that the state would withhold evidence in this jurisdiction. The British Establishment was under severe pressure to find IRA bombers to calm public terror. Different times. But you know all of this already, don't you.

well then you are incredibly naive.

Gimme A Pound

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wonder how much Ana Kriegel's social isolation made A and B feel that they had a licence to what whatever they wanted with her.

Oh definitely a big part I think. As someone else said, she was dehumanised by then.

Somedaythefire wrote: »

They want two 14 year olds killed though.

But two 14/15 year olds who sexually assaulted and degraded and butchered someone to death... for nothing. So it's not really ironic. One was for zero reason, the other would be for a reason - the hypothetical victims' own evil deeds, unlike Ana, who was innocent.

Now in all seriousness, while I wouldn't give a sh1t, frankly, if a member of Ana's family took the law into their own hands, I don't actually agree with the state having that power and someone's comment that a tiny few wrongfully convicted to death would be worth it, is sheer lunacy... it is just words on the internet though, in a fog of understandable anger and sadness and frustration. Just words on the internet. Not actually happening.

But Ana's murder really happened, and that's what the horrifying thing is. Not revenge fantasies (in the form of words only) on the internet. I'd be miles and miles more concerned about the former.

weldoninhio

MrFresh wrote: »

They still would have been executed though wouldn't they?

No, because the charges that the state tried them under charges that didn't carry the death sentence!! The (British) state that withheld the evidence of their innocence was the same (British) state that filed the charges against them. They knew they couldn't face execution. It's hardly rocket science is it???

ohnonotgmail

weldoninhio wrote: »

No, because the charges that the state tried them under charges that didn't carry the death sentence!! The (British) state that withheld the evidence of their innocence was the same (British) state that filed the charges against them. They knew they couldn't face execution. It's hardly rocket science is it???

you think the state would have acted differently if the death penalty was possible? you really are incredibly naive.

nehemiah

weldoninhio wrote: »

No, because the charges that the state tried them under charges that didn't carry the death sentence!! The (British) state that withheld the evidence of their innocence was the same (British) state that filed the charges against them. They knew they couldn't face execution. It's hardly rocket science is it???

So if there had been the death penalty the state would not have withheld the evidence?

Interesting theory

GreeBo

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If you didn't have the appeals do you know In the last 10 years how many innocent people would have executed ? I don't know how many got off on appeal.

They reckon 4% of death row inmates are innocent that's means one in 25 that are killed are innocent,

In the states from 2008 - 2018 374 people where executed ,
That is 15 innocent people who where executed not to mention the ones who got off because of appeal

Radford Serial Killer Database
Since 1950 (date of last kill)
2,883 serial killers in the United States
Of those 2,883
478 killed again while on parole for murder (16.6%)
138 killed again while in prison (4.8%)
23 killed while escaped from prison for murder (0.8%)
11 killed while on NGRI release for murder (0.4%)
650 (22.5%) killed again after an initial conviction for murder

Many of the above committed *multiple* murders so the number of people who died is greater again.

Ulysses Gaze

Schools in Ireland need to start hammering down on bullies. Else it will become more like the US where schools start turning a blind eye to it and ignoring it.

Start expelling Bullies and not soft-soaping the issue or being intimidated by arsehole parents like Boy B's father coming into schools roaring abuse at them.

Small Wonder

Lackadaisical wrote: »

All this talk of the death penalty is reactionary nonsense. We abolished it completely by firstly not using it for many years, then by legislation and ultimately by referendum and constitutional amendment. It's also a criteria of membership of the EU and Council of Europe.

We don't have the death penalty because we're are better than that.

It's both risky in terms of potentially executing someone after a miscarriage of justice and that can't be undone. It debases and demeans society. We have to be better than killing people.

For all the angry talk that goes on in discussion forums, it would be carried out in the name of the people. So we the people would be killing people - in my view is you do that you lose your moral high ground. Also someone has to actually do it. In the early years of the state when we still actively sued capital punishment there was no hangman as nobody would do the job.

Justice has to be delivered calmly and dispassionately. It's not about reactionary vengeance no matter how angry and sickened we might be by a crime it's not about exacting medieval revenge.

We quite often hear of death-row prisoners that have been exonerated after many years behind bars. You'd have to wonder how many innocent people get executed each year around the world. Can you just imagine getting strapped in for a lethal injection knowing you're innocent? The risk of an injustice happening far outweighs the 'benefit' that society might take from the execution.

rossie1977

Louisiana which has the death penalty in 2017 had four times the homicide rate of New Jersey or Washington state which don't have the death penalty. So death penalty isn't really a deterrent.

It's also not a left and right issue. China and North Korea still have death penalty, in fact China executes more people annually than anywhere else on Earth followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan.

I am of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any reasonable doubt the person is guilty of murder then the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment. That however would require crime to be on video or for person to be caught in act or at scene of crime with incriminating evidence.

Will finish by saying if you are a practicing Christian you really shouldn't be in favour of death penalty given 'Thou shalt not kill' is probably most important commandment.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

RiCriostoir wrote: »

And to hear Mr. Gagebys last question to Ana's mother was to ask her to confirm that she had told the Gardai she found a condom under her daughters pillow, the week before her disappearance is absolutely disgraceful and he should be brought up on this. That even the slightest bit of interest or curious about sex and their sexuality can people some partial blame to the victim...

A lot of Boy A's defences closing statement seemed to hinge on the implication that his DNA got on her through consensual contact and then things got out of hand and he accidentally killed her.

Despicable, but barely eyebrow raising for anyone who's been present for or followed a rape trial. I assume there wasn't a hint of lace or anything on her underwear or that would have been brought up too...

Suckit

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Schools in Ireland need to start hammering down on bullies. Else it will become more like the US where schools start turning a blind eye to it and ignoring it.

Start expelling Bullies and not soft-soaping the issue or being intimidated by arsehole parents like Boy B's father coming into schools roaring abuse at them.

I think we as a society have a larger role to play also.

trihead

Saw this online from one of the papers - might be useful if people wanted to donate and where not aware of it. The focus I feel should be on Ana and her memory not on these 2 boys (though I understand how its huge news at the moment)

It should be noted that - in the midst of their grief last year - Mr and Mrs Kriegel asked mourners that donations be made to the Russian Irish Adoption Group (RIAG).

Through those donations, the RIAG was able to set up a website, so members and others have a resource and a network available.

The RIAG has also set up a network for Russian Irish teenagers. It’s called ANA (Ana’s Network of Adolescents) and it seems like a fitting tribute to the teen, who was described during her memorial service as being “caring, kind, strong-willed” and “sometimes cheeky”.

fryup

Woke Hogan wrote: »

The people frothing at the mouth and rubbing their legs at the idea of executing or torturing these two boys need to realise that they're part of the problem regarding violence in society.

Feisar wrote: »

The hugs and kisses brigade need to realize that they're part of the problem regarding violence in society.

so what do you do??

we need to take a step back from this and look at it rationally, studies have shown that a person's brain doesn't fully develop until the age of 25...so should an undeveloped child at the age of 13 be executed? or sentenced to life??

his life is ruined anyway by the stigma of this ...i think if they haven't shown true remorse & rehabilitation by the age of 21 then they should remain in detention

ohnonotgmail

rossie1977 wrote: »

Louisiana which has the death penalty in 2017 had four times the homicide rate of New Jersey or Washington state which don't have the death penalty. So death penalty isn't really a deterrent.

It's also not a left and right issue. China and North Korea still have death penalty, in fact China executes more people annually than anywhere else on Earth followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan.

I am of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any reasonable doubt the person is guilty of murder then the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment. That however would require crime to be on video or for person to be caught in act or at scene of crime with incriminating evidence.

Will finish by saying if you are a practicing Christian you really shouldn't be in favour of death penalty given 'Thou shalt not kill' is probably most important commandment.

The correct translation for the commandment is Thou Shalt not murder so i think we can give the christians a pass on that.

Edgware

nehemiah wrote: »

State withholding evidence is not the only way a miscarriage of justice can take place.

Even now there is some legitimate doubt about the level of involvement of Boy B. We can all have a 'gut feeling' that he was involved more than he says he was and it's clear that he lied in his interviews but there's little more than that to go on.

Except that he stood boy while Ana was murdered. The jury had no doubt and thats all that matters.

Feisar

Gerianam wrote: »

Parents need to be parents. Our fourteen year old son, has access to his phone for one hour after dinner, he does not ask for any more because he knows it will not happen. Yesterday, he mowed his granny's front lawn and back garden, she gave him 10 euro. He bought sweets for himself and his little sister. I cannot underdstand how kids are allowed to have access depravity on line. The world is gone crazy.

All points agreed, however he got a tender for mowing the lawn, leads me to believe it’s within the realms of possibility that he could have €150 to €200 euro to his name? All he needs to do is buy a second hand or refurbished laptop and a world of depravity is at his fingertips. Not saying anything about your son specifically, just an example. Do you monitor all internet traffic in the house?

Dots1982

Surely the Red FM guy has to be prosecuted or it’s open season on naming anyone in the future whose identity is made a secret by court order?

yourdeadwright

GreeBo wrote: »

Radford Serial Killer Database
Since 1950 (date of last kill)
2,883 serial killers in the United States
Of those 2,883478 killed again while on parole for murder (16.6%)
138 killed again while in prison (4.8%)
23 killed while escaped from prison for murder (0.8%)
11 killed while on NGRI release for murder (0.4%)
650 (22.5%) killed again after an initial conviction for murder

Many of the above committed *multiple* murders so the number of people who died is greater again.

So are you saying its ok for the state to kill 15 innocent people ?
I don't get where your going with this ?

Omackeral

Grayson wrote: »

We would be hanging innocent people at some point. As someone said already the birmingham 6 and guildford 4 would have been killed.

theguzman wrote: »

The tiny amount of innocents who would die is a small price to pay

Do you realise how utterly psychotic that sounds? You'd be happy if your brother or sister or your kid, actually, was hung and they were innocent? Small price to pay after all...