Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Sunflower 27

dickangel wrote: »

I'm just responding to you saying we don't know how big the boys were, we know of them was tall for his age. The Irish Times article has all the info you need.

I've read the article, thanks.

I know A was into martial arts. It's obvious he would likely be the one to do the initial attack to bring Ana down.

nehemiah

nehemiah wrote: »

There's no way to ensure rehabilitation, in the same way that there is no way to ensure that every murder conviction is 100% correct, which is why the death penalty was removed in the first place.

FWIW, the recidivism rate in Ireland is at it's lowest amongst prisoners convicted of homicide. Can't find exactly the number of convicted murderers that kill again after being released but I would imagine it's very low. I'm sure it has happened (and I'm sure my ignorance will be highlighted pretty quickly) but it's much lower than the average recidivism rate.

How many would have committed other crimes on their release?

.......

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah, sorry I saw your elaboration after I had posted.
Your poor friend that must have been awkward.

He was initially furious. But then he was just glad he had found them and it afforded an opportunity to talk to his kid.

The thing he impressed upon his kid was that (a) its child porn and (b) the internet is FOREVER. So that pic could follow him around.

Course the kid goes "well my face isnt in it so it might not be me". :mad:

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

It happens but not that high. 75% of 11 year olds sexting, I find that hard to believe.

We'd have to hope it's nowhere near that high.

My anecdotal contribution...

Recently I visited some friends one evening, and while I was in the house the bullying of their eldest (call her Sarah) was the predominant topic of conversation. The following day, the mother was keeping Sarah home from school and going in herself for a meeting with Sarah's year head.

The girl who was leading the bullying was mainly hitting Sarah over being "frigid" and other sexually-related things like having a flat-chest, nothing terribly new from back in my day. As it turns out though, as both the mother and Sarah attested to seeing, this girl who was leading the bullying was making and sending graphic videos of herself to at least one boy in their class. The video was described to me, but I won't describe it here because 1) Just nope, and 2) I fear that I could end up on a list. These kids are 13, first years

Rightfully as a society we have been very focused on and worried about what adults can do to children via the internet. We need to cast an eye on what the kids are doing to each other as well though.

80sChild

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Yes, good point. No mention of texts especially at the crucial time B got Ana. You'd imagine a text to A saying she'd agreed to go with him and they were on their way

Unfortunately, that age group are using snapchat for stuff like this. Disappears like smoke in the air once sent and read.

Grayson

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m all for trying to understand what drives people to commit terrible acts and figure out warning signs for future potential cases but a lot that talk with regard to this particular case just smacks of scapegoating to me.

The blame for what happen to Ana Kriegal lies solely with Boy A and Boy B. Not their parents, not the school, not the internet, just those two clearly unwell and unhinged boys.

To be fair we can't say that 100% percent. Although there's no evidence to suggest it was bad parenting or anything like that. So anyone saying it is bad parenting is saying something there's no evidence for.

AudreyHepburn

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I think in the initial aftermath people are talking about the crime in a wider sense, which is only natural. I think most are of the opinion the blame lies with the boys. Not many are minimising their role over anyone else.

I think it's naive to rule out other influences entirely though.

I’m not saying we rule out altogether. I’m saying that using it to excuse what the two boys did is not dealing with problem.

There is clearly some underlying mental issues for both boys that were either missed completely, ignored or perhaps seen but not understood for what they were. That’s of far more concern to me than that they might have seen a violent image or clip somewhere.

Necro

Deleted User wrote: »

We'd have to hope it's nowhere near that high.

My anecdotal contribution...

Recently I visited some friends one evening, and while I was in the house the bullying of their eldest (call her Sarah) was the predominant topic of conversation. The following day, the mother was keeping Sarah home from school and going in herself for a meeting with Sarah's year head.

The girl who was leading the bullying was mainly hitting Sarah over being "frigid" and other sexually-related things like having a flat-chest, nothing terribly new from back in my day. As it turns out though, as both the mother and Sarah attested to seeing, this girl who was leading the bullying was making and sending graphic videos of herself to at least one boy in their class. The video was described to me, but I won't describe it here because 1) Just nope, and 2) I fear that I could end up on a list. These kids are 13, first years

Rightfully as a society we have been very focused on and worried about what adults can do to children via the internet. We need to cast an eye on what the kids are doing to each other as well though.

Christ.

Right I'm out folks, I'm off to Outer Siberia with the family till the kids are 18.

That's absolutely horrifying and something I'd almost be sure goes on in many many schools around the country.

dickangel

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I've read the article, thanks.

I know A was into martial arts. It's obvious he would likely be the one to do the initial attack to bring Ana down.

I'm not sure there was ever a discussion over who should do the attack and it was decided it should be Boy A because he does martial arts. Boy A wanted to do the attack (he was the one that raised the idea in the first place) and Boy B wanted to witness it, in my opinion.

So I really don't see how him being tall and good at martial arts means that he was obviously going to be the attacker. I think he just wanted to be the one to do it.

Aisling_Dublin

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

Sunflower 27

80sChild wrote: »

Unfortunately, that age group are using snapchat for stuff like this. Disappears like smoke in the air once sent and read.

Cheers, I'm not up on all that stuff (70s child)

Cryptopagan

GreeBo wrote: »

If they get life in Ireland then it doesnt necessarily mean they are in prison for life, just that they have a life sentence. They could get out after X years, but at any time they can be locked up again.

Yes, they are released on license and considered to be serving the remainder of their sentence in the community. I don’t know what kind of conditions are attached usually, but I guess probably stuff like checking in at a garda station regularly, engaging with rehabilitation services etc. I don’t think you can just up sticks to another country. You’d be violating the conditions of your release and would be liable to be rearrested and returned to jail.

I read that one of the boys under interview asked for his mother to leave the room. Sounded like he was about to tell more but didn't want to in front of her. We are too soft allowing parents to hold their kids hands through interviews anyway

SirGerryAdams

Hard to believe 13 year old boys would be as cool after the event. I know Boy A made out he was attacked and he might have been a bit shaken but even still...

Boy B must have known something terrible happened. He either saw it start or he saw it all.

Boy A did it.

It would take a really strange coincidence for Boy B to be someone who just so happened to not be phased by an attack he saw, had Boy B only been asked to bring Ana there, not knowing about what was going to happen.

How likely would it be that a 13 year old boy would be unphased from seeing a vicious attack on a now missing girl?

Gimme A Pound

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

It was only first year though, they may have been considering it. Not taking her out of school doesn't mean passivity.

I'd be all for removing a child from a school they're being bullied in though (people who say the kid should just tough it out really haven't a clue).

Grayson

Necro wrote: »

Christ.

Right I'm out folks, I'm off to Outer Siberia with the family till the kids are 18.

That's absolutely horrifying and something I'd almost be sure goes on in many many schools around the country.

We should have classes about this in school. Most people would have no idea how to teach children about sex, consent, equality, bullying and crap like that. You throw technology in and there's not a hope. These classes should start when the children are younger, and of course be age appropriate. But they need to start young because trying to say this to a group of 15 year olds isn't gong to work.

Jimbob1977

The Kriegels brought Ana to Ireland for a better life away from the poverty and deprivation of Russia.

The poor girl experienced a nightmare over here.

I feel so sorry for Mr. and Mrs. Kriegel

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

I read that one of the boys under interview asked for his mother to leave the room. Sounded like he was about to tell more but didn't want to in front of her. We are too soft allowing parents to hold their kids hands through interviews anyway

I completely agree and I also think it’s the worst possible thing you could do if you’re trying to get a child or young person to admit to wrongdoing.

What better way to get them to clam up and refuse to speak than to have Mum or Dad sitting next to them.

Penn

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Hard to believe 13 year old boys would be as cool after the event. I know Boy A made out he was attacked and he might have been a bit shaken but even still...

Boy B must have known something terrible happened. He either saw it start or he saw it all.

Boy A did it.

It would take a really strange coincidence for Boy B to be someone who just so happened to not be phased by an attack he saw, had Boy B only been asked to bring Ana there, not knowing about what was going to happen.

How likely would it be that a 13 year old boy would be unphased from seeing a vicious attack on a now missing girl?

I'd say it's easier to act unphased after it if you knew before it that it was going to happen.

Necro

Grayson wrote: »

We should have classes about this in school. Most people would have no idea how to teach children about sex, consent, equality, bullying and crap like that. You throw technology in and there's not a hope. These classes should start when the children are younger, and of course be age appropriate. But they need to start young because trying to say this to a group of 15 year olds isn't gong to work.

At 15 they likely know of more ways than those teaching them to do to send or access inappropriate stuff.

Should really be starting from primary school, I agree. Department of Education are still stuck in the 80s in that respect though.

nehemiah

droidman123 wrote: »

Watched a documentary recently about the usa olympic gymnastics team doctor, he sexually abused young girls over a period of years,he got 240 years,a minimum of 40 years before he can apply for parole (rightfully so) these 2 guys will be back in society in probably 8-10 years,theres murdering scum only serving 10 years or do every week for horrendous crimes,including murder.the liberals in this country are slowly but surely destroying it.the various ministers for justice over the years have a lot to answer for,but of course they wont.the laws in this country badly needs overhauling,no more namby pamby approach.wont happen in my lifetime unfortunately and the scum will continue to breed and run riot

Which liberal Ministers for Justice would you be referring to?

Ireland has had a centrist/right-wing government for almost the entire history of the state. In the UK the Tories have been in power more than 50% of the time since WWII. France and Germany are also centrist/centre-right.

It's easy to blame the leftie boogieman, but unfortunately it's a figment of your imagination.

Strazdas

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

That may well have been on the cards. It seems possible / likely she might have changed school within a year or so. There's no evidence they weren't good parents to Ana. Her mother texted her immediately when she heard she had gone off with B and insisted she return home.

InTheShadows

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

Jesus Christ

Necro

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I completely agree and I also think it’s the worst possible thing you could do if you’re trying to get a child or young person to admit to wrongdoing.

What better way to get them to clam up and refuse to speak than to have Mum or Dad sitting next to them.

Yeah but it's the law here, so procedure by the Gardaí was followed correctly.

It's protection for them as much as the offenders tbh. The little sh1tes they deal with on a regular basis would probably have no qualms making up claims about inappropriate behaviour from the Guards.

El_Bee

nehemiah wrote: »

Which liberal Ministers for Justice would you be referring to?

Ireland has had a centrist/right-wing government for almost the entire history of the state. In the UK the Tories have been in power more than 50% of the time since WWII. France and Germany are also centrist/centre-right.

It's easy to blame the leftie boogieman, but unfortunately it's a figment of your imagination.

Economically right, but socially very very liberal; pro divorce, pro abortion, pro gay marriage. pro mass immigration (not saying any of those things are bad before you all lynch me, but definitely not right wing positions).

Mardy Bum

Psychopath A & Sociopath B.

Very little could be done in school for students like this.

80sChild

Necro wrote: »

Yeah but it's the law here, so procedure by the Gardaí was followed correctly.

It's protection for them as much as the offenders tbh. The little sh1tes they deal with on a regular basis would probably have no qualms making up claims about inappropriate behaviour from the Guards.

I think solicitor was present also IIRC? All is recorded anyway so Guards have protection there. I do agree with poster who said imminent confession/elaboration could have been sacrificed in this moment.

Gimme A Pound

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m not saying we rule out altogether. I’m saying that using it to excuse what the two boys did is not dealing with problem.

There is clearly some underlying mental issues for both boys that were either missed completely, ignored or perhaps seen but not understood for what they were. That’s of far more concern to me than that they might have seen a violent image or clip somewhere.

Reasons aren't excuses. The boys alone are responsible for the murder, and are messed up individuals.

However it is not making an excuse to consider the elements that may have helped shape them/what they did: the possible acceptance of dehumanisation of Ana via the bullying culture, the possible powerlessness of the school when aware of bullying on its premises (and after the experience of someone I know recently - a lot in common with poor Ana - I don't buy anymore that schools are helpless), the possible crap parenting, the easy access to very dark porn which didn't kill her but appeared to inspire the assault and murder methods.

nehemiah

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

How many would have committed other crimes on their release?

26% apparently. The average for all released prisoners is 62%.

Based on 2010 data.

https://www.irishprisons.ie/images/pdf/recidivismstudyss2.pdf

Sunflower 27

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Hard to believe 13 year old boys would be as cool after the event. I know Boy A made out he was attacked and he might have been a bit shaken but even still...

Boy B must have known something terrible happened. He either saw it start or he saw it all.

Boy A did it.

It would take a really strange coincidence for Boy B to be someone who just so happened to not be phased by an attack he saw, had Boy B only been asked to bring Ana there, not knowing about what was going to happen.

How likely would it be that a 13 year old boy would be unphased from seeing a vicious attack on a now missing girl?

If he had been watching a lot of gruesome stuff on the internet, maybe not phased at all, possibly excited to see it for real.