Greystones school - gender neutral uniforms to be introduced.

McMurphy

Heard this being discussed on Newstalk this morning.


Now firstly, I have zero issues with this gender neutral policy craic, be gender neutral - I don't give a chit.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but whilst I think it's been an acceptable practice for girls to be wearing trousers for what seems like years now, (practical in many senses, not only in comfort terms, but also to prevent little peaks up there by teenage lads) I'm just not so sure about lads being allowed to wear skirts to school. (Which is what this school is introducing)

Lads, wear skirts if you like - as stated I don't give a chit. Wear makeup, bras even fake boobs etc if you wish to too.

But in a school?

The absolute perfect ingredients needed to create an environment for unrelenting bullying.

Is this PC gone mad?

ted1

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Heard this being discussed on Newstalk this morning.


Now firstly, I have zero issues with this gender neutral policy craic, be gender neutral - I don't give a chit.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but whilst I think it's been an acceptable practice for girls to be wearing trousers for what seems like years now, (practical in many senses, not only in comfort terms, but also to prevent little peaks up there by teenage lads) I'm just not so sure about lads being allowed to wear skirts to school. (Which is what this school is introducing)

Lads, wear skirts if you like - as stated I don't give a chit. Wear makeup, bras and fake boobs etc if you like.

But in a school?

That's the perfect ingredients to create an environment for unrelenting bullying.

Is this PC gone mad?

Lads have been wearing kilts for years

Deeper Blue

I don't see the point in this, as OP mentioned facilitation of gender neutrality etc is fine but allowing lads to wear skirts is just inviting bullying and harassment. We've all been in schools here and we know exactly how that'd go down.

Insect Overlord

Non-issue.

Reati

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Is this PC gone mad?

No. The problem is people who give a **** what other people wear or do with their lives and need to make a life time crusade to stop people doing it.

If people stopped worrying more about what other people were doing or wearing and focus that energy somewhere useful we might actually get real problems sorted.

Ten of Swords

Nobody is being forced to do anything, they're simply being given options. There will probably be a low uptake in fairness but at least if someone decides to there won't be bureaucratic nonsense and the school know exactly where they stand

Allinall

It'll toughen up the little snowflakes.

If I ever have a boy, I'm going to name him Sue.

chuck eastwood

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Heard this being discussed on Newstalk this morning.


Now firstly, I have zero issues with this gender neutral policy craic, be gender neutral - I don't give a chit.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but whilst I think it's been an acceptable practice for girls to be wearing trousers for what seems like years now, (practical in many senses, not only in comfort terms, but also to prevent little peaks up there by teenage lads) I'm just not so sure about lads being allowed to wear skirts to school. (Which is what this school is introducing)

Lads, wear skirts to school if you like - as stated I don't give a chit. Wear makeup, bras and fake boobs etc if you like.

But in a school?

That's the perfect ingredients to create an environment for unrelenting bullying.

Is this PC gone mad?

Its not a question of PC gone mad but more so discrimination if you seek to stop it. I don't work in a school but my partner does on the social care side of things, last week we attended an open day for our youngest who will be attending primary school and I was blown away with how heavy the exclusivity aspect of the open day is. Parents were invited to speak privately with the principle if there were any gender related issues they felt they might need guidance with and assured that support would be given.
This is not forcing it on anyone or PC gone mad, I just feel it better that it is an open conversation in the event that any of our kids want to discuss why other kids feel this way. Why hide it from them. It will also hopefully lead to a point where young children won't be bullied and feel they need to hide or worse. Genuinely don't see what the problem is here

El_Duderino 09

I imagine almost none of the boys will ever wear a skirt. So what's the problem?

Woke Hogan

Not doing something because you might get bullied is cowardice. Children should be taught to stand up to bullies not bend to their will.

That being said, I doubt many lads will elect to wear dresses to school.

McMurphy

Reati wrote: »

No. The problem is people who give a **** what other people wear or do with their lives and need to make a life time crusade to stop people doing it.

If people stopped worrying more about what other people were doing or wearing and focus that energy somewhere useful we might actually get real problems sorted.

It's teenage kids we're talking about here.

Teenage kids aren't universally recognised for their level headed and reasoned acceptance for how their peers act, behave or dress.

If my own lads decide tomorrow they wanna wear a skirt to school, I'd tell him "work away son" but I'd be preparing myself for the inevitable victimisation and bullying that would be in the post.

glasspicklejar

If wearing trousers or a skirt is more in keeping with you being you, then go for it. Though the better question might be why there's a uniform at all.

biko

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-to-introduce-gender-neutral-school-uniform-policy-1.3931242

Primary school to introduce gender neutral school uniform policy
Wicklow school to allow boys wear skirts or girls to wear trousers

Máire Costello, the school principal, said the move was prompted by the school’s student council and had been agreed by the school’s board of management and parents.

“We have children who are questioning their sexual identity. It is happening at an earlier age. We want all our children to have a happy experience in school,” she said.

Pkiernan

Their toilets policy will be interesting

Balanadan

Allinall wrote: »

It'll toughen up the little snowflakes.

If I ever have a boy, I'm going to name him Sue.

There was a male teacher in my school called Suzie. Not sure if that was his real name or a nickname.

namloc1980

“We have children who are questioning their sexual identity. It is happening at an earlier age. We want all our children to have a happy experience in school".

It's a primary school FFS. Let children be children.

Beechwoodspark

Schools should focus on basic education issues. They are already failing in basic areas.

GreeBo

Ugh, just make the uniform trousers only and move on.
The clue is in the name...uniform
"remaining the same in all cases and at all times; unchanging in form or character."

RocketRaccoon

With the week that's in it, isn't it strange for a school to be bringing in something like this which will 100% result in some poor child being bullied?

glasspicklejar

Pkiernan wrote: »

Their toilets policy will be interesting

Only if you think what you wear defines your gender. What if one of the female teachers wears trousers to work one day, should she have to start using the men's staff toilet? I'm sure it will cause some laughs/ confusion the first few days.

New workplaces have non-gendered bathroom facilities. So it's just loads of cubicles. Rather than trying to further bisect Mens/ Womens toilets into Mens(Cis)/ Mens(Trans)/ Womens(Cis)/ Womens(Trans) and all the other ways you could choose to divide things... we'll just roll it up to a single generic bathroom facility that anyone can feel comfortable using. I do hope they keep a urinal facility somewhere. That's like a fast track service at the airport!

Junkyard Tom

If I had a Son and he said he wanted to wear a skirt to school I'd say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgyLQ2jVsuY

d8491prj5boyvg

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Heard this being discussed on Newstalk this morning.


Now firstly, I have zero issues with this gender neutral policy craic, be gender neutral - I don't give a chit.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but whilst I think it's been an acceptable practice for girls to be wearing trousers for what seems like years now, (practical in many senses, not only in comfort terms, but also to prevent little peaks up there by teenage lads) I'm just not so sure about lads being allowed to wear skirts to school. (Which is what this school is introducing)

Lads, wear skirts if you like - as stated I don't give a chit. Wear makeup, bras and fake boobs etc if you like.

But in a school?

That's the perfect ingredients to create an environment for unrelenting bullying.

Is this PC gone mad?

There is a difference between theory and practice that the OP is missing. In theory, lads can wear skirts thanks to the new school rules. This is great for optics - this is a progressive, forward thinking, inclusive school.

In practice, a number of things may happen. Most likely, no lads will wear skirts. Maybe one or two but I would put a good wedge the number is zero. Let's say a few do and genuinely want to. They may or may not get slagged. If they get slagged, they might stop and have the option to go back to trousers. If the threat of slagging is real they probably wouldn't even do it in the first place.

Alternatively, it is a good opportunity for the school to put their money where their mouth is and reprimand the students.

If they don't get slagged, no problem.

In the long term I think the bullying on this issue might die down as the slagging that went on in the past becomes taboo even among the young lads.

tl;dr - it's a non issue.

Peregrinus

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

With the week that's in it, isn't it strange for a school to be bringing in something like this which will 100% result in some poor child being bullied?

Well, there'll be no question of bullying unless a boy actually turns up in a dress, which I suggest is probably not going to happen all that often.

What a rule change like this does is to clarify issues; if a boy ever does wear a dress, or even profess a desire to, and gets bullied for doing so, it's now clearly flagged that the problem that will need to be dealt with in that situation is not the dress; it's the bullying.

Which, I'm sure we'd all agree, is absolutely the right signal to send. Having a rule that boys mustn't dress in a way that might provoke bullying is not all that different from a rule that says that women mustn't dress in a way that might provoke sexual harassment.

whisky_galore

ted1 wrote: »

Lads have been wearing kilts for years

Try wearing one in this country and see how stupid fully grown adults can get, let alone children.

kravmaga

This is ridiculous, the school should concentrate on the curriculum, this will just create another excuse for kids to bully other kids

Calhoun

Wonder if they are allowed wear shorts. Seems pretty odd that it's a skirt or a trousers and no in between.

JohnnyFlash

I’m glad I still have the option to send my kids to schools with a religious ethos. Where the focus is on education, sport, and personal development, and not this ‘woke’ bollocks.

Peregrinus

You don't think St. Bridget's National School in Greystones, attached as it is to the Parish of Holy Rosary and St Kilian, might have a religious ethos at all?

d8491prj5boyvg

Let's think through a likely scenario. This was voted in by a school council. The students themselves voted it in and are therefore actively thinking about gender issues.

Day 1, a boy lands in with a skirt. He's not taking the piss and genuinely feels more comfortable in the skirt. In a school culture where the students have voted in favour of gender neutrality, will this boy get slagged about this revealed preference? This is a mixed school, so not 100% laddish and girls may be more sympathetic to issues of gender. Also, teenage boys like to impress girls. I don't think it will be an issue .

donaghs

GreeBo wrote: »

Ugh, just make the uniform trousers only and move on.
The clue is in the name...uniform
"remaining the same in all cases and at all times; unchanging in form or character."

Shows you how much things are still in a state of flux and confusion. I think most people would be ok with a "gender neutral uniform". i.e. everyone wearing the same thing.
But saying that girls can wear trousers/whatever and boys can wear skirts, is not gender neutral. It reinforces, gender, albeit the idea that its something you can pick, rather than being inherent.

Sounds as much trying to stay on-trend as good intentions. If fashions/culture change, and the idea of "gender difference" comes under attack again, as it was when I was in uni, i guess they just have to keep shifting policies?

weldoninhio

Reati wrote: »

No. The problem is people who give a **** what other people wear or do with their lives and need to make a life time crusade to stop people doing it.

If people stopped worrying more about what other people were doing or wearing and focus that energy somewhere useful we might actually get real problems sorted.

You realise we are talking about UNIFORMS!!!!

Wibbs

This nonsense is getting more and more retarded by the day.

RocketRaccoon

Gordon Attractive Deodorant wrote: »

Let's think through a likely scenario. This was voted in by a school council. The students themselves voted it in and are therefore actively thinking about gender issues.

Day 1, a boy lands in with a skirt. He's not taking the piss and genuinely feels more comfortable in the skirt. In a school culture where the students have voted in favour of gender neutrality, will this boy get slagged about this revealed preference? This is a mixed school, so not 100% laddish and girls may be more sympathetic to issues of gender. Also, teenage boys like to impress girls. I don't think it will be an issue .

You're wrong unfortunately.

Peregrinus

A "gender-neutral uniform" does not mean that the students have to be neutral about gender or about their own gender identities. It just means that the uniform items that you can wear do not depend on the gender you identify with. Girls will be free to be girly girls and dress in the girliest possible fashion and likewise boys can identify and boys and dress as boyishly as they want. Even if no student in the school ever adopts a non-gendered or transgender identity there will be no need to change this rule.

I'd have no problem with this. It's highly unlikely that any boy will wear a dress anyway. My 4-year-old, however, would not be impressed as she loves having rules about what boys can and cannot wear or like "because they're boys". If this embrace of gender stereotypes is common the schools will have their work cut out.

I would, however, feel we should stop projecting personal sexual identity crises which befall a small number of older, sexualised teenagers on to much younger kids and just let primary school kids be kids. I'd be fairly certain bullying is still the greatest impediment to the happiness of kids. To my shock it has been going on in crèche with 3-year-old children. If this change reduces bullying on even one child for his/her sexuality it will be worth it.

suicide_circus

lets see how many boys go to school in the skirts.

mad muffin

I think we should go back to Greek and Roman times and everyone wears a toga. And the soldiers wear tunics with little leather skirts.

McMurphy

suicide_circus wrote: »

lets see how many boys go to school in the skirts.

Wonder if any lads would wear one just for the craic?

suicide_circus

mad muffin wrote: »

I think we should go back to Greek and Roman times

it was also quite normal for grown men to interfere with young lads back then

BookNerd

My son was in a mixed primary school with twin girls, one of whom wasn't a just a "tomboy" as the school liked to put it, but was outright adamant she was a boy. From a very young age (pretty much as soon as she was verbal) she wanted to be called by a boys name, played with the boys, wore her hair short etc.
At the time there was a "girls wear pinafores, boys wear trousers".
The mother of this child had a nightmare daily trying to get the child into the pinafore. She ended up buying the trousers and just flouting the school rules for the sake of the child's happiness.
All was fine until secondary school where there were no mixed schools and this child had to go to an all girls school where the uniform was a skirt.
After much unhappiness on the child's part including self harming and suicidal tendencies, the childs mother moved her to a mixed school involving a 30-40 minute journey each morning.

IMO there should be no segregation by gender in schools. It's outdated and can be harmful to children/teens who are identifying as a different gender to the one assigned at birth.
Girls have been able to wear "boys" clothes for years and girls who identify as boys have been able to just fit into their schools as nobody will bat an eyelid at a girl with short hair wearing trousers. It's time we did the same for boys who are identifying as females and allow them to be who they want to be also.
Isn't it just simple equality?

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

it was also quite normal for grown men to interfere with young lads back then

Hello, David Norris!

Peregrinus

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Wonder if any lads would wear one just for the craic?

More likely to do that if it's forbidden that if it's permitted, to be honest.

klaaaz

Boys have rights too, a boy wearing a skirt should not be bullied at school. A skirt is just an item of clothing, no big deal. Target the bullys for the harassment they give, not the bullied.

suicide_circus

BookNerd wrote: »

My son was in a mixed primary school with twin girls, one of whom wasn't a just a "tomboy" as the school liked to put it, but was outright adamant she was a boy. From a very young age (pretty much as soon as she was verbal) she wanted to be called by a boys name, played with the boys, wore her hair short etc.
At the time there was a "girls wear pinafores, boys wear trousers".
The mother of this child had a nightmare daily trying to get the child into the pinafore. She ended up buying the trousers and just flouting the school rules for the sake of the child's happiness.
All was fine until secondary school where there were no mixed schools and this child had to go to an all girls school where the uniform was a skirt.
After much unhappiness on the child's part including self harming and suicidal tendencies, the childs mother moved her to a mixed school involving a 30-40 minute journey each morning.

IMO there should be no segregation by gender in schools. It's outdated and can be harmful to children/teens who are identifying as a different gender to the one assigned at birth.
Girls have been able to wear "boys" clothes for years and girls who identify as boys have been able to just fit into their schools as nobody will bat an eyelid at a girl with short hair wearing trousers. It's time we did the same for boys who are identifying as females and allow them to be who they want to be also.
Isn't it just simple equality?

so you think there are so many transgender kids in the world that we should do away with the choice of segregated schools?

ohnonotgmail

mad muffin wrote: »

I think we should go back to Greek and Roman times and everyone wears a toga. And the soldiers wear tunics with little leather skirts.

I totally agree

McMurphy

Peregrinus wrote: »

More likely to do that if it's forbidden that if it's permitted, to be honest.

No, uniform in my school for lads was fairly strict - blazer, blue shirt with tie, and pullover, with grey or black slacks.

7 years there, started aged 12, and left aged 18 and I never seen a lad wear a skirt in all them years.

Kivaro

Wibbs wrote: »

This nonsense is getting more and more retarded by the day.

You would think that those "enlightened" people who are pushing for these types of reforms in all aspects of our lives are the majority on this Island.
They are not; they are a small vocal minority.

There will be a push-back one of these days.

embers_fire

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Not doing something because you might get bullied is cowardice. Children should be taught to stand up to bullies not bend to their will.

Not doing something because you might get bullied is sensible. Standing up to bullies can result in a child getting the crap knocked out of him repeatedly.
What would you propose a bullied child would do? If he was wearing a skirt he'd probably be in the minority, he could be on his own against a gang of bigger kids.

ohnonotgmail

embers_fire wrote: »

Not doing something because you might get bullied is sensible. Standing up to bullies can result in a child getting the crap knocked out of him repeatedly.
What would you propose a bullied child would do? If he was wearing a skirt he'd probably be in the minority, he could be on his own against a gang of bigger kids.

what would be sensible is for the school to stamp out bullying.

ohnonotgmail

Kivaro wrote: »

You would think that those "enlightened" people who are pushing for these types of reforms in all aspects of our lives are the majority on this Island.
They are not; they are a small vocal minority.

There will be a push-back one of these days.

this was prompted by the students themselves.

Woke Hogan

embers_fire wrote: »

Not doing something because you might get bullied is sensible. Standing up to bullies can result in a child getting the crap knocked out of him repeatedly.
What would you propose a bullied child would do? If he was wearing a skirt he'd probably be in the minority, he could be on his own against a gang of bigger kids.

It's cowardly. If you raise your child to kowtow to bullies, you are raising a coward.

As for what the bullied child (and their parents) should do: go to the teachers, go to the other kids' parents, go to the police. There are different avenues.