Greystones school - gender neutral uniforms to be introduced.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

"let the boys do whatever they want when they're adults, but until then they conform to 'normal' society standards".

I feel this is fair.

I wouldn't want to push my own ideologies on children either.

I'm not saying the current setup is perfect.

Contradiction right there: you're forcing a conformist ideology on them right there.

Now, if people were forcing boys to wear skirts, you'd have a point.

OMM 0000

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Contradiction right there: you're forcing a conformist ideology on them right there.

Now, if people were forcing boys to wear skirts, you'd have a point.

OK, if you want to call "conforming to 'normal' society" an ideology I can accept that.

I see many problems, and I don't want to repeat myself, but it's clear this is an ideology (gender neutral) being pushed onto tax payer funded schools. As I said earlier, if you want to go and create The Gender Neutral School, and make it fully private, I can accept that. But don't use my tax payer money to teach kids your ideology. And really, keep your ideology to yourself. Be a professional teacher.

Can you agree that's fair?

Obviously I think the current system isn't perfect, e.g. trying to indoctrinate kids with religion.

MrFresh

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't think that's quite it.

It's more like

"men and women are different and we shouldn't be trying to pretend they're the same"

and

"boys dressing as women in schools is going to lead to more bullying"

and

"leave sexuality out of schools"

and

"leave your ideology out of schools"

and

"let the boys do whatever they want when they're adults, but until then they conform to 'normal' society standards".

I feel this is fair.

I wouldn't want to push my own ideologies on children either.

I'm not saying the current setup is perfect.

Men and women are biologically different. This has nothing to do with the current issue. Bullying is no more a reason to restrict this than it was to restrict gay adoption. Fix the bully, not the victim. This has nothing to do with sexuality. This is freedom from ideology, not pushing an ideology. Children develop to fast during these years to be overly restricting them for no reason. If you wait until they are adults to express themselves or be different then you're just trying to make them the same as everyone else.

OMM 0000

MrFresh wrote: »

Men and women are biologically different. This has nothing to do with the current issue. Bullying is no more a reason to restrict this than it was to restrict gay adoption. Fix the bully, not the victim. This has nothing to do with sexuality. This is freedom from ideology, not pushing an ideology. Children develop to fast during these years to be overly restricting them for no reason. If you wait until they are adults to express themselves or be different then you're just trying to make them the same as everyone else.

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

Brian?

briangriffin wrote: »

And this is the crux of the whole thing this is an ideology that is being professed as progressive thinking using children at a vulnerable age to further and legitimise an agenda which has no place in our schools. If you want to wear a skirt a bat man costume or a jackass costume then I have no problem in the world with that as an adult go nuts you can make that decision and deal with the consequences as an adult. Children should not be used as pawns, they have enough to deal with growing up without this nonsense.

Re: ideology. Surely the side who want to dictate what people can or can’t wear are the ones imposing their ideology on others.

Leaving it up to the parents and children to agree is a lack of intrusion. I can’t see how this is imposing an ideology.

Any kid whose parents don’t want them to wear a skirt won’t be wearing one.

Brian?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

Blanco100

off topic but it really had to be greystones didnt it.

If ever there was a place to top the charts for having ridiculous notions about itself

OMM 0000

Brian? wrote: »

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

We don't disagree that much.

Kids can know about these ideologies, that's fine and I think probably healthy, but to implement them in school? I have an issue with that.

There are lots of ideologies. Where do we draw the line? For example, many extremists think there is no biological difference between men and women. Should a tax payer funded school be allowed implement that? If not, why not?

So I think keep the ideologies out of school (except for in debating-type of classes) and let kids be kids until they're adults.

I'm not saying don't be aware of ideologies, I'm saying don't make them a part of school. For example, Islam is an ideology. Don't force my kids to read the Quran every day. But by all means teach the different religions and debate the pros and cons of each.

MrFresh

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

Right, protect them from the bullies by actually addressing the bully, don't simply force the kid to conform.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

That's my point.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

Wearing a skirt is no more complex or dangerous an idea than wearing an ear ring.

OMM 0000

MrFresh wrote: »

Right, protect them from the bullies by actually addressing the bully, don't simply force the kid to conform.

Wearing a skirt is no more complex or dangerous an idea than wearing an ear ring.

"Addressing the bully" doesn't work though. We all know this. It's like the war on drugs - it doesn't work.

By all means have classes which debate things, discuss things, help us all be more accepting and patient with each other.

Perhaps after a few decades of that we can let boys show up in class wearing a skirt and lipstick.

Earrings aren't socially unacceptable. That's the issue. A boy wearing a skirt is incredibly socially unacceptable and he will be bullied like crazy.

The child's safety needs to come before your ideology.

It's clear you have your mind made up. Good luck to you.

HappyAsLarE

Brian? wrote: »

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

I don’t like criticising someone’s parenting but your kids will have zero ability to cope with adversity. They will have a very thin skin.

MrFresh

OMM 0000 wrote: »

"Addressing the bully" doesn't work though. We all know this. It's like the war on drugs - it doesn't work.

It does work.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

By all means have classes which debate things, discuss things, help us all be more accepting and patient with each other.

Perhaps after a few decades of that we can let boys show up in class wearing a skirt and lipstick.

Earrings aren't socially unacceptable. That's the issue. A boy wearing a skirt is incredibly socially unacceptable and he will be bullied like crazy.

Wearing an ear ring was not acceptable though. It was "gay", especially if it was in the right ear for some reason. We don't bat an eyelid at it now. That didn't change by talking about it, it changed by exposure to it.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

The child's safety needs to come before your ideology.

It's clear you have your mind made up. Good luck to you.

What ideology is that exactly?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

OK, if you want to call "conforming to 'normal' society" an ideology I can accept that.

I see many problems, and I don't want to repeat myself, but it's clear this is an ideology (gender neutral) being pushed onto tax payer funded schools. As I said earlier, if you want to go and create The Gender Neutral School, and make it fully private, I can accept that. But don't use my tax payer money to teach kids your ideology. And really, keep your ideology to yourself. Be a professional teacher.

Can you agree that's fair?

Obviously I think the current system isn't perfect, e.g. trying to indoctrinate kids with religion.

I was about to say: what about religion? Why are you happy for you taxes to pay for religion? Or Irish, for that matter? Lots of people don;t care for Iris hand see their kids learning it as a waste of time?

Regaurdless of whether it is or is not an ideology, no one is actually forcing it on anyone!! - all they're doing is giving kids options. Within controlled and accepted boundaries.

OMM 0000

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I was about to say: what about religion? Why are you happy for you taxes to pay for religion? Or Irish, for that matter? Lots of people don;t care for Iris hand see their kids learning it as a waste of time?

Regaurdless of whether it is or is not an ideology, no one is actually forcing it on anyone!! - all they're doing is giving kids options. Within controlled and accepted boundaries.

I'm not happy to pay taxes for forced religion (I think I said that in a previous post).

I also don't think we should pay for Irish, but we could pay for an "Irish culture" class - dancing, singing, history, language, folklore.

I believe you and the other people disagreeing with me are reasonable people. But I disagree with your statement no one is actually forcing it on anyone!!. The principal is going to force girls to use the same bathroom as boys. And we can be absolutely certain she's going to tell boys gender is a construct, so they can wear dresses if they want.

What the principal is doing isn't innocent.

We should all be trying to keep ideologies out of schools.

briangriffin

Brian? wrote: »

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

You can teach your child about the ways of the world and still keep their innocence.
When you say sometimes boys feel like girls and dress like girls and girls dress like boys and feel like boys and some girls and boys are born into the wrong body where does that conversation end?
That's a little confusing for school children and can lead to problems for not just "trans" kids but other kids too.
Have a look at what's happening in America and Britain at the moment these ideologies have been implemented at school level.
There were 2 transgender clinics in America in the early 00s there are over 50 now this is not as innocent as you might think and I would like my children to grow up in a society that nurtures and protects them.

Calhoun

briangriffin wrote: »

You can teach your child about the ways of the world and still keep their innocence.
When you say sometimes boys feel like girls and dress like girls and girls dress like boys and feel like boys and some girls and boys are born into the wrong body where does that conversation end?
That's a little confusing for school children and can lead to problems for not just "trans" kids but other kids too.
Have a look at what's happening in America and Britain at the moment these ideologies have been implemented at school level.
There were 2 transgender clinics in America in the early 00s there are over 50 now this is not as innocent as you might think and I would like my children to grow up in a society that nurtures and protects them.

Fair chunk of change to be made in this area and in America you see it at its worst where it's like the reverse and parental figures are pushing their views onto children.

It's why we need to keep the fairly strict doctor led guidelines we have in Ireland. Also make sure we keep any conversion therapy until once they hit 18.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not happy to pay taxes for forced religion (I think I said that in a previous post).

I also don't think we should pay for Irish, but we could pay for an "Irish culture" class - dancing, singing, history, language, folklore.

I believe you and the other people disagreeing with me are reasonable people. But I disagree with your statement no one is actually forcing it on anyone!!. The principal is going to force girls to use the same bathroom as boys. And we can be absolutely certain she's going to tell boys gender is a construct, so they can wear dresses if they want.

What the principal is doing isn't innocent.

We should all be trying to keep ideologies out of schools.

Forcing kids the use the same bathroom is NOT forcing an ideology on someone! Most of them probably share the same bathroom with brothers or fathers at home. Or their friends' homes. Or youth clubs. Or small cafes or restaurants...

_Whimsical_

MrFresh wrote: »

So basically, restrict the victim instead of deal with bullies. Same argument used against gay adoption.

Unfortunately we live in a world that it not fair.
We have to protect our children, we have to anticipate potential dangers for them, to not do so is to them an enormous disservice. Small children have no concept of the risks they might face or the that their actions might have consquences for the teenage self they cannot fathom will later exist.
Sure it would be nice if every small child could sing and dance and suck their thumb or whatever they might do at home, in school, and if bullies could always be silenced by the teacher. "It's not fair" is no consolation to a child whose self esteem may be left in taters over something enormously sensitive though.

I wouldn't in anyway compare it to gay adoption. Adoption provides a child with something essential. A plaid pinafore does not. Gender can be explored in a safe space for small kids at home before making public visual statements is required.
They can be told that a skirt does not define a woman, that you can be just as femine in a pair of pants as in a dress as evidenced by all the girls wearing pants. You can still play with dolls, your best friend can be a girl, you can have longer hair etc. I don't believe children now have the same narrow prescriptive notions of gender that we had growing up, I think sending boys to school in dresses is imposing a notion of gender that just doesn't exist anymore, that a boy in someone in pants and a girl is someone in a skirt. It feels like a strangely depressing throwback to another time. As adults we should not let 1 small child bear the price of making a statement they don't understand though, not when safer alternatives that don't curtail their expression of self exist.

jackboy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

New question: would you be ok if he wanted to dress up as a princess in full drag for Halloween?

Yes I would be ok with a boy dressing up as a princess for Halloween. The drag part though, only yes if done in a non sexualised way.

Brian?

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I don’t like criticising someone’s parenting but your kids will have zero ability to cope with adversity. They will have a very thin skin.

Really? ?Why is that? Because I educate them on the real world and don't try to hide the truth from them?

Since you're such an expert, how do you raise kids with a "thick skin"???

Brian?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

We don't disagree that much.

Kids can know about these ideologies, that's fine and I think probably healthy, but to implement them in school? I have an issue with that.

There are lots of ideologies. Where do we draw the line? For example, many extremists think there is no biological difference between men and women. Should a tax payer funded school be allowed implement that? If not, why not?

So I think keep the ideologies out of school (except for in debating-type of classes) and let kids be kids until they're adults.

I'm not saying don't be aware of ideologies, I'm saying don't make them a part of school. For example, Islam is an ideology. Don't force my kids to read the Quran every day. But by all means teach the different religions and debate the pros and cons of each.

Sorry, but what do you actually mean by "these ideologies"?

One can be an adherent of many ideologies and believe it's none of my business how other peoples kids dress.

SirGerryAdams

The modern world is all about telling kids whatever they think is ok. You're not allowed tell them they're wrong anymore.

A boy could come out and say he wants to be a tree and the modern reaction is "that's fine! You can be a tree!". In reality it should be "A tree is an inanimate object and you are not a tree."

Kids are impressionable as ****. If a mother told her son as a child that he's a girl, he'd eventually believe it.

MrFresh

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

The modern world is all about telling kids whatever they think is ok. You're not allowed tell them they're wrong anymore.

A boy could come out and say he wants to be a tree and the modern reaction is "that's fine! You can be a tree!". In reality it should be "A tree is an inanimate object and you are not a tree."

Kids are impressionable as ****. If a mother told her son as a child that he's a girl, he'd eventually believe it.

My four year old dresses up as Spiderman all the time. How do you suggest I break it to him that Spiderman isn't real and he can never be a superhero?

HappyAsLarE

Brian? wrote: »

Really? ?Why is that? Because I educate them on the real world and don't try to hide the truth from them?

Since you're such an expert, how do you raise kids with a "thick skin"???

The real world? The majority of the real world think gender neutral policy is bull, as is young boys wearing skirts.. If you don’t hear this criticism it is because people keep quiet around you.

You raise kids with a thick skin by telling them in the real world they will be ridiculed for being odd. And if they want to continue to be odd (I am stranger than most), then don’t expect to be accepted in this world, and bare this suffering like a cross.

Zillah

It's absolutely staggering that some people think their own beliefs and preferences are not an ideology but everyone else's is.

If you want to mandate that certain types of clothing should be forbidden for girls or boys, that is an ideology. Demanding that we "keep ideology out of schools", when really you just mean every ideology that isn't yours, is pretty much saying you want your ideology to be so supreme that it shall reign unquestioned.

And your obsessive need to define other people's gender expression is a damaging ideology that has reigned unchallenged for centuries, and now that we're finally giving kids a chance to express themselves without your paternal domineering you act like the sky is falling.

The future is now, old man.

Zillah

Brian? wrote: »

Sorry, but what do you actually mean by "these ideologies"?

Literally anything he finds alarming. That is as much thought as he has put into this.

Brian?

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

The modern world is all about telling kids whatever they think is ok. You're not allowed tell them they're wrong anymore.

That's nonsense. I tell my kids they're wrong all the time. I teach them it's important to have good manners and treat others how you want to be treated. Among other things, like tidying up after yourself, the importance of hard work and being grateful for what you have.

That includes respecting someone else's right to be different.

A boy could come out and say he wants to be a tree and the modern reaction is "that's fine! You can be a tree!". In reality it should be "A tree is an inanimate object and you are not a tree."

Kids are impressionable as ****. If a mother told her son as a child that he's a girl, he'd eventually believe it.

You have a point. It worries me what some parents push on to their kids.

SirGerryAdams

Zillah wrote: »

It's absolutely staggering that some people think their own beliefs and preferences are not an ideology but everyone else's is.

If you want to mandate that certain types of clothing should be forbidden for girls or boys, that is an ideology. Demanding that we "keep ideology out of schools", when really you just mean every ideology that isn't yours, is pretty much saying you want your ideology to be so supreme that it shall reign unquestioned.

And your obsessive need to define other people's gender expression is a damaging ideology that has reigned unchallenged for centuries, and now that we're finally giving kids a chance to express themselves without your paternal domineering you act like the sky is falling.

The future is now, old man.

Do you not believe in convention?

I wonder how many parents in the country would allow their kid to get a dick ring. Sure....going by this thread if the kid wants a dick ring there's nothing wrong with it!!

Brian?

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

The real world? The majority of the real world think gender neutral policy is bull, as is young boys wearing skirts.. If you don’t hear this criticism it is because people keep quiet around you.

You raise kids with a thick skin by telling them in the real world they will be ridiculed for being odd. And if they want to continue to be odd (I am stranger than most), then don’t expect to be accepted in this world, and bare this suffering like a cross.

That's not teaching them to have a thick skin. That's teaching them self loathing.

SirGerryAdams

MrFresh wrote: »

My four year old dresses up as Spiderman all the time. How do you suggest I break it to him that Spiderman isn't real and he can never be a superhero?

:rolleyes:

A kid pretending to be spiderman is clearly a fantasy, not an actual belief that he is spiderman. :rolleyes:

If a kid said "don't call me Billy anymore, my name is Spiderman."...I wonder how many parents would call him spiderman???

MrFresh

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

:rolleyes:

A kid pretending to be spiderman is clearly a fantasy, not an actual belief that he is spiderman. :rolleyes:

If a kid said "don't call me Billy anymore, my name is Spiderman."...I wonder how many parents would call him spiderman???

You don't have kids do you?

OMM 0000

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Forcing kids the use the same bathroom is NOT forcing an ideology on someone! Most of them probably share the same bathroom with brothers or fathers at home. Or their friends' homes. Or youth clubs. Or small cafes or restaurants...

You really believe the idea that bathrooms should be gender neutral (as part of a boys can wear skirts to school policy) is not an ideology?

I don't think you can compare using your bathroom at home to using a gender neutral bathroom at school. If you're a woman you probably know lots of women are weird about pooping in a women's toilet.

Zillah

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Do you not believe in convention?

Convention for convention's sake? Absolutely not. Status quo bias is a fallacy. Everything needs to be justified on its own terms. Convention used to be that men solved disagreements with a duel, women were property transferred from father to husband, children were beaten as a punishment, and people of a certain colour were slaves. Convention used to be that aristocracy ruled due to birth right and the rest of us were worthless peasants.

Do you like democracy? What about feudal convention?

OMM 0000

Brian? wrote: »

Sorry, but what do you actually mean by "these ideologies"?

One can be an adherent of many ideologies and believe it's none of my business how other peoples kids dress.

Gender pronouns, gender neutral, transgender, etc., are part of a wider gender related ideology.

HappyAsLarE

Brian? wrote: »

That's not teaching them to have a thick skin. That's teaching them self loathing.

Well they won’t suffer fools. Self loathing is inherent in humans anyway.

OMM 0000

To the people saying this isn't an ideology or there's nothing wrong with it:

Let's say a Muslim principal in a tax payer funded school in Greystones said she's introducing a policy where the female students can start wearing a burka and hijab if they want, and the kids will now have to use their right hand or left hand only when using the toilet.

Would you think this is "getting with the times" and not a principal implementing an ideology, or would you very much see it as the principal implementing their ideology in the school?

Because that's what's happening here. You just don't see it as an ideology because it's already your own ideology.

Zillah

OMM 0000 wrote: »

To the people saying this isn't an ideology or there's nothing wrong with it:

Let's say a Muslim principal in a tax payer funded school in Greystones said she's introducing a policy where the female students can start wearing a burka and hijab if they want, and the kids will now have to use their right hand or left hand only when using the toilet.

Would you think this is "getting with the times" and not a principal implementing an ideology, or would you very much see it as the principal implementing their ideology in the school?

Because that's what's happening here. You just don't see it as an ideology because it's already your own ideology.

All beliefs are ideology. You have strong and arbitrary beliefs around gender; you have defined the traits that you feel represent a boy or a girl, including strict rules on what kinds of clothes they must or must not wear. This and versions of it has been the reigning ideology for a long time and it has done untold damage to gay and transgender people in society, as well as everyone else by forcing men and women to conform to very limiting definitions of acceptable behaviour causing all kinds of harm.

You're just so short-sighted that you can't even recognise your own ideology as such.

OMM 0000

Zillah wrote: »

All beliefs are ideology. You have strong and arbitrary beliefs around gender; you have defined the traits that you feel represent a boy or a girl, including strict rules on kinds of clothes they must or must not wear. This and versions of it has been the reigning ideology for a long time and it has done untold damage to gay and transgender people in society.

You're just so short-sighted that you can't even recognise your own ideology as such.

I know it's possible to break down many things into ideologies, but this is considered a dangerous ideology by many people (trying to remove or dilute the the concept of gender).

What bothers me the most is how so many people here want to put their ideology above the welfare of kids. You can be absolutely sure the boys showing up in skirts will be bullied beyond belief.

Please stop reverting to insults ("short-sighted"). I'm not going to respond to you anymore as you're unable to be civil.

SirGerryAdams

Quite funny people here say kids can choose to wear a skirt if they want while they can't even change their name (with parent consent) until 14...

Little Billy can make his communion in a white dress and think he's a girl but the law says he's not mature enough to even change his name without parent consent.

briangriffin

Zillah wrote: »

All beliefs are ideology. You have strong and arbitrary beliefs around gender; you have defined the traits that you feel represent a boy or a girl, including strict rules on what kinds of clothes they must or must not wear. This and versions of it has been the reigning ideology for a long time and it has done untold damage to gay and transgender people in society, as well as everyone else by forcing men and women to conform to very limiting definitions of acceptable behaviour causing all kinds of harm.

You're just so short-sighted that you can't even recognise your own ideology as such.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder, you think confusing children at a young age furthers your ideology because you think what you think should be the norm. You think because this isn't the norm it must be oppressing boys and girls? Not every societal norm is oppressive. do some research on how this is affecting children in America and Britain where this nonsense has been introduced unchecked. You can pedal insults at everyone who disagrees with you all you like it's not going to change what the vast majority of sensible people who are actually concerned about young children think.

Zillah

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I know it's possible to break down many things into ideologies, but this is considered a dangerous ideology by many people (trying to remove or dilute the the concept of gender).

What bothers me the most is how so many people here want to put their ideology above the welfare of kids. You can be absolutely sure the boys showing up in skirts will be bullied beyond belief.

Please stop reverting to insults ("short-sighted"). I'm not going to respond to you anymore as you're unable to be civil.

You seem to feel you have a monopoly on wanting the best for children. If bullies are a problem in a school then the school needs to deal with the bullies. Putting the responsibility to not be bullied on the victim is an outrageously irresponsible thing to advocate. Do you tell rape victims to stop wearing such short skirts, too?

A skirt isn't going to do a boy any harm; the only harm he'll get is from people like you, and you can prevent that happening by just opening your mind a little bit.

And I'm sorry you feel insulted by my 'short-sighted' criticism, but if you can't see your own ideology for what it is then that is an accurate description.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You really believe the idea that bathrooms should be gender neutral (as part of a boys can wear skirts to school policy) is not an ideology?

Yep. I've seen plenty of gender neutral bathrooms (i.e - unisex toilets) that were not part of an ideology

I don't think you can compare using your bathroom at home to using a gender neutral bathroom at school. If you're a woman you probably know lots of women are weird about pooping in a women's toilet.

I can, and just did. Unisex bathrooms and have been around for long since before I was born (and let me tell you, that wasn't recent), for some reason you've chosen to have a problem with them now.

Zillah

briangriffin wrote: »

You have a serious chip on your shoulder, you think confusing children at a young age furthers your ideology because you think what you think should be the norm. You think because this isn't the norm it must be oppressing boys and girls? Not every societal norm is oppressive. do some research on how this is affecting children in America and Britain where this nonsense has been introduced unchecked. You can pedal insults at everyone who disagrees with you all you like it's not going to change what the vast majority of sensible people who are actually concerned about young children think.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that this policy was requested by the student council. No one is forcing anything here. The students feel it is fair to allow them to wear whichever uniform suits them. These conspiracy theories about some global movement to confuse children are just paranoid ramblings.

The students are happy with it, the school is happy with it; the only people with a problem are some keyboard warrior conservatives scared of a future they don't understand.

OMM 0000

Sports are already being destroyed by the ideologues.

Here's a biological male legally knocking out a biological female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U4KGz72SEg

As sports one by one allows males to compete alongside women, soon every champion will be male.

I really don't see what the end goal is here - a minority of men who think they're women want society to think they're women too?

briangriffin

Zillah wrote: »

Everyone seems to be forgetting that this policy was requested by the student council. No one is forcing anything here. The students feel it is fair to allow them to wear whichever uniform suits them. These conspiracy theories about some global movement to confuse children are just paranoid ramblings.

The students are happy with it, the school is happy with it; the only people with a problem are some keyboard warrior conservatives scared of a future they don't understand.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7767662/students-school-17-pupils-changing-gender-autistic/
Adults have to make decisions in the best interest of their children, that's called being a grown up.

Brian?

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Well they won’t suffer fools. Self loathing is inherent in humans anyway.

You’re ok with self loathing?

I’m not. I can teach my children to love themselves and not tolerate stupidity at the same time. I can teach them to be functioning, well adjusted adults and not care if other men wear skirts. My parents did it for me.

Zillah

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Sports are already being destroyed by the ideologues.

Here's a biological male legally knocking out a biological female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U4KGz72SEg

As sports one by one allows males to compete alongside women, soon every champion will be male.

I really don't see what the end goal is here - a minority of men who think they're women want society to think they're women too?

Kind of just going off on a bit of an anti-transgender rant now, aren't we? Good to see you drop the pretence.

OMM 0000

Zillah wrote: »

Kind of just going off on a bit of an anti-transgender rant now, aren't we? Good to see you drop the pretence.

I knew it was a matter of time before someone accused me of being anti-transgender. Not surprised it's the guy who can't have a civil conversation.

It's truly pathetic how people with your sort of ideologies always have to resort to name calling because you have no real arguments.

Adding you to my ignore list, so rant away.

blade1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I imagine almost none of the boys will ever wear a skirt. So what's the problem?

Maybe some crazy parent will make their son wear a skirt.
Then his friends in school, will feel like they should be wearing skirts.
Before you know it you'll have a school full of boys wearing skirts and most of them not wanting to. :eek:

Mrsmum

I think it's wrong to put little children out in the front line of the gender wars going on at the moment. We need to be a lot further down the road of sorting out all the ramifications of gender fluidity & people self identifying for adults & young adults first before involving such young children in it all. And besides school is the wrong place to carry out social experiments on children, when it is the children that carry the cost of said experimenting. We like to think of school as safe spaces but if they truly were, there wouldn't be the level of bullying going on there that there is. Much better to let a little boy wear a dress outside of school on occasions where his parents are standing by to support him.

That these children came up with this request themselves suggests to me that at their tender years they know too much about a subject that they shouldn't know about at all considering it affects a tiny, tiny minority of people. Course it only takes one, one whose parents are determined they must grow up to be progressive above all else, ironically so their child will fit in with their kind. Able to think for themselves, my eye.