Greystones school - gender neutral uniforms to be introduced.

jackboy

Brian? wrote: »

Because they want to?

Some children might want to wear a Batman costume to school. Doesn’t mean it should be alllowed.

OMM 0000

Wicklow school to allow boys wear skirts or girls to wear trousers

Máire Costello, the school principal, said the move was prompted by the school’s student council and had been agreed by the school’s board of management and parents.

“We have children who are questioning their sexual identity. It is happening at an earlier age. We want all our children to have a happy experience in school,” she said.

Maybe I'm naive, but if a young lad thinks he's gay, how is letting him show up to school in a dress going to make him happier?

School is a place for learning. It's also a place with a lot of bullying.

The entire idea of a uniform is to minimise bullying by making everyone have the same identity.

I cannot see this turning out well. I also wonder if this Máire Costello person is really thinking about what's best for the children, or is just trying to push her ideology.

HappyAsLarE

briangriffin wrote: »

Why would he wear a skirt though? Why is it necessary to have this included in school policy?

Because it helps make more boys to be effeminate so women can achieve some strange form of equality.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

briangriffin wrote: »

Yeah so because they want to we should let them. That seems like the responsible thing as a parent to do does it?

jackboy wrote: »

Some children might want to wear a Batman costume to school. Doesn’t mean it should be alllowed.

Why should they have to justify it?

Again - within the frame of an agreed-upon dress-code - they don;t have to give a reason.

If he wanted to dress up as Batman for Halloween, does he have to give a valid reason beforehand?

Brian?

briangriffin wrote: »

Yeah so because they want to we should let them. That seems like the responsible thing as a parent to do does it?

That’s the point of this change in dress code. It’s now up to the parents and children what they wear to school, I’m perfectly fine with that. Aren’t you?

jackboy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If he wanted to dress up as Batman for Halloween, does he have to give a valid reason beforehand?

Halloween is the valid reason.

OMM 0000

St Brigid's is also phasing out girls' and boys' toilets and replacing them with gender neutral facilities.

They're also removing boys and girls toilets and making them gender neutral.

I don't think tax payer funded schools should be allowed implement particular ideologies. I know many of you may disagree with this, but the "gender neutral" thing is an ideology. It's supported by a subset of people on the left, and dismissed, strongly, by a subset of people on the right.

I have no issue with a private school, which receives no tax payer funds, implementing whatever ideology they want.

It'll be interesting to see how all this turns out. Maybe it'll work. But I think it'll just mean no girl will ever take a **** at that school.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Brian? wrote: »

That’s the point of this change in dress code. It’s now up to the parents and children what they wear to school, I’m perfectly fine with that. Aren’t you?

that would be no uniform.

This is relatively benign but the whole trans ideology is, particularly with self identification, fairly difficult to swallow.

OMM 0000

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

that would be no uniform.

This is relatively benign but the whole trans ideology is, particularly with self identification, fairly difficult to swallow.

This is the real issue for me.

It's an ideology, being forced upon a tax funded school.

I believe adults should be allowed do whatever they want, but I don't want my kids being taught gender or sex is a construct, because I do not believe in that ideology, and do not wish to fund it.

By all means open The Gender Neutral School, make it privately funded, and let parents choose to send their kids there. I still think that's weird, but at least there's some sort of choice.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They're also removing boys and girls toilets and making them gender neutral.

I don't think tax payer funded schools should be allowed implement particular ideologies. I know many of you may disagree with this, but the "gender neutral" thing is an ideology. It's supported by a subset of people on the left, and dismissed, strongly, by a subset of people on the right.

I have no issue with a private school, which receives no tax payer funds, implementing whatever ideology they want.

It'll be interesting to see how all this turns out. Maybe it'll work. But I think it'll just mean no girl will ever take a **** at that school.

I think it’s dismissed by most people.

On the other hand it affects women mostly as these gender neutral spaces aren’t that great for them. And it seems that women are either ok with it or they are not speaking up about it. I don’t see the patriarchy being involved here. As a man I’m inclined to get angry at the pseudo science here but I’m also inclined to not care that much. I have a son, no daughter.

Pass the popcorn.

why is other people finding it strange and unnecessary and utterly forced for a school to announce a policy on boys wearing skirts a problem for so many of ye

why is it your business what people post on boards

what are you so afraid of

OMM 0000

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I think it’s dismissed by most people.

On the other hand it affects women mostly as these gender neutral spaces aren’t that great for them. And it seems that women are either ok with it or they are not speaking up about it. I don’t see the patriarchy being involved here. As a man I’m inclined to get angry at the pseudo science here but I’m also inclined to not care that much. I have a son, no daughter.

Pass the popcorn.

Yes, when I was visualising a gender neutral toilet, I wasn't seeing any boys having an issue with it, but I was seeing lots of girls having an issue with it.

I already know some women feel weird going to the toilet in a women's toilet (e.g. they wait for the hand dryer to turn on before they starting peeing), so it's just going to be significantly worse if there are a group of boys standing outside the cubicle.

I can only see this increasing the amount of bullying.

This is why I think the principal is trying to implement her ideology rather than do what's best for the children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jackboy wrote: »

Halloween is the valid reason.

But why does he have to explain the reason for his specific choice?

jackboy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But why does he have to explain the reason for his specific choice?

He doesn’t have to explain.

School ideally should be a safe non stressful space for learning. Uniforms help with this by removing one massive distraction (clothes). Poor and rich, different races and cultures all dressing the same is a leveler which at least helps provide a calmer atmosphere for education. I believe that all primary school children (boys and girls) should wear pants. There is no need for any child to wear a skirt.

MrFresh

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

The boy could already wear a skirt if he wanted. All he had to do was say he identifies as a girl and no one would say a thing.

But he might not identify as a girl. He might just like a skirt. Is that really so baffling to you? Is it so different to a man carrying a handbag or wearing ear rings?

Bobblehats

MrFresh wrote: »

But he might not identify as a girl. He might just like a skirt. Is that really so baffling to you? Is it so different to a man carrying a handbag or wearing ear rings?

I’ll wear the skirts around here sister

briangriffin

MrFresh wrote: »

But he might not identify as a girl. He might just like a skirt. Is that really so baffling to you? Is it so different to a man carrying a handbag or wearing ear rings?

And this is the crux of the whole thing this is an ideology that is being professed as progressive thinking using children at a vulnerable age to further and legitimise an agenda which has no place in our schools. If you want to wear a skirt a bat man costume or a jackass costume then I have no problem in the world with that as an adult go nuts you can make that decision and deal with the consequences as an adult. Children should not be used as pawns, they have enough to deal with growing up without this nonsense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jackboy wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But why does he have to explain the reason for his specific choice?

He doesn’t have to explain.

School ideally should be a safe non stressful space for learning. Uniforms help with this by removing one massive distraction (clothes). Poor and rich, different races and cultures all dressing the same is a leveler which at least helps provide a calmer atmosphere for education. I believe that all primary school children (boys and girls) should wear pants. There is no need for any child to wear a skirt.

No, he doesn't have to explain. My point entirely. And as it's within the dress code and he feels comfortable, that's really all there is to it.

New question: would you be ok if he wanted to dress up as a princess in full drag for Halloween?

MrFresh

briangriffin wrote: »

And this is the crux of the whole thing this is an ideology that is being professed as progressive thinking using children at a vulnerable age to further and legitimise an agenda which has no place in our schools. If you want to wear a skirt a bat man costume or a jackass costume then I have no problem in the world with that as an adult go nuts you can make that decision and deal with the consequences as an adult. Children should not be used as pawns, they have enough to deal with growing up without this nonsense.

Only one side pushing an agenda on children. It's the ones telling them it's wrong to wear something they like because it's not normal for a boy.

OMM 0000

MrFresh wrote: »

Only one side pushing an agenda on children. It's the ones telling them it's wrong to wear something they like because it's not normal for a boy.

I don't think that's quite it.

It's more like

"men and women are different and we shouldn't be trying to pretend they're the same"

and

"boys dressing as women in schools is going to lead to more bullying"

and

"leave sexuality out of schools"

and

"leave your ideology out of schools"

and

"let the boys do whatever they want when they're adults, but until then they conform to 'normal' society standards".

I feel this is fair.

I wouldn't want to push my own ideologies on children either.

I'm not saying the current setup is perfect.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

"let the boys do whatever they want when they're adults, but until then they conform to 'normal' society standards".

I feel this is fair.

I wouldn't want to push my own ideologies on children either.

I'm not saying the current setup is perfect.

Contradiction right there: you're forcing a conformist ideology on them right there.

Now, if people were forcing boys to wear skirts, you'd have a point.

OMM 0000

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Contradiction right there: you're forcing a conformist ideology on them right there.

Now, if people were forcing boys to wear skirts, you'd have a point.

OK, if you want to call "conforming to 'normal' society" an ideology I can accept that.

I see many problems, and I don't want to repeat myself, but it's clear this is an ideology (gender neutral) being pushed onto tax payer funded schools. As I said earlier, if you want to go and create The Gender Neutral School, and make it fully private, I can accept that. But don't use my tax payer money to teach kids your ideology. And really, keep your ideology to yourself. Be a professional teacher.

Can you agree that's fair?

Obviously I think the current system isn't perfect, e.g. trying to indoctrinate kids with religion.

MrFresh

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't think that's quite it.

It's more like

"men and women are different and we shouldn't be trying to pretend they're the same"

and

"boys dressing as women in schools is going to lead to more bullying"

and

"leave sexuality out of schools"

and

"leave your ideology out of schools"

and

"let the boys do whatever they want when they're adults, but until then they conform to 'normal' society standards".

I feel this is fair.

I wouldn't want to push my own ideologies on children either.

I'm not saying the current setup is perfect.

Men and women are biologically different. This has nothing to do with the current issue. Bullying is no more a reason to restrict this than it was to restrict gay adoption. Fix the bully, not the victim. This has nothing to do with sexuality. This is freedom from ideology, not pushing an ideology. Children develop to fast during these years to be overly restricting them for no reason. If you wait until they are adults to express themselves or be different then you're just trying to make them the same as everyone else.

OMM 0000

MrFresh wrote: »

Men and women are biologically different. This has nothing to do with the current issue. Bullying is no more a reason to restrict this than it was to restrict gay adoption. Fix the bully, not the victim. This has nothing to do with sexuality. This is freedom from ideology, not pushing an ideology. Children develop to fast during these years to be overly restricting them for no reason. If you wait until they are adults to express themselves or be different then you're just trying to make them the same as everyone else.

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

Brian?

briangriffin wrote: »

And this is the crux of the whole thing this is an ideology that is being professed as progressive thinking using children at a vulnerable age to further and legitimise an agenda which has no place in our schools. If you want to wear a skirt a bat man costume or a jackass costume then I have no problem in the world with that as an adult go nuts you can make that decision and deal with the consequences as an adult. Children should not be used as pawns, they have enough to deal with growing up without this nonsense.

Re: ideology. Surely the side who want to dictate what people can or can’t wear are the ones imposing their ideology on others.

Leaving it up to the parents and children to agree is a lack of intrusion. I can’t see how this is imposing an ideology.

Any kid whose parents don’t want them to wear a skirt won’t be wearing one.

Brian?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

Blanco100

off topic but it really had to be greystones didnt it.

If ever there was a place to top the charts for having ridiculous notions about itself

OMM 0000

Brian? wrote: »

I completely disagree. Kids should be aware that these complex concepts exist. In broad terms.

I tell my kids that some men love men, and that’s pretty normal and ok. I don’t explain the sexual acts that gay men enjoy. They can learn that later.

I tell my kids where babies come from. I don’t show them a video of 2 adults having sex.

The same goes for gender issues. Sometimes boys feel like girls and want to dress like that. And vice versa. There ends the discussion for now.

It de stigmatises alternative lifestyles. So if either of my children are gay or trans they won’t grow up feeling there’s something wrong with them. They’ll grow up informed that these things happen and it’s nothing to worry about, they will be loved and accepted no matter what.

You seem to have a very broad definition of ideology if you think accepting alternative lifestyles is an ideology. I don’t call it an ideology, I call it being decent to one another.

We don't disagree that much.

Kids can know about these ideologies, that's fine and I think probably healthy, but to implement them in school? I have an issue with that.

There are lots of ideologies. Where do we draw the line? For example, many extremists think there is no biological difference between men and women. Should a tax payer funded school be allowed implement that? If not, why not?

So I think keep the ideologies out of school (except for in debating-type of classes) and let kids be kids until they're adults.

I'm not saying don't be aware of ideologies, I'm saying don't make them a part of school. For example, Islam is an ideology. Don't force my kids to read the Quran every day. But by all means teach the different religions and debate the pros and cons of each.

MrFresh

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I disagree with bits in bold, either because it's impractical or IMO not true.

I think children need to be protected. They're not adults and their safety (e.g. protection from bullying, protection from people pushing gender/sex ideologies) needs to come first.

Right, protect them from the bullies by actually addressing the bully, don't simply force the kid to conform.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No one told me I need to be straight, or gay, or whatever, and now as an adult I'm on my own journey and doing things my own way.

That's my point.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My opinion is keep children children, and let them explore these complex and sometimes dangerous concepts when they're adults. Until then, keep the ideologies out of the class room, or in the classroom but in a balanced "let's debate this" sort of way. For example, I would be absolutely fine with a weekly class which debates ideologies.

Wearing a skirt is no more complex or dangerous an idea than wearing an ear ring.

OMM 0000

MrFresh wrote: »

Right, protect them from the bullies by actually addressing the bully, don't simply force the kid to conform.

Wearing a skirt is no more complex or dangerous an idea than wearing an ear ring.

"Addressing the bully" doesn't work though. We all know this. It's like the war on drugs - it doesn't work.

By all means have classes which debate things, discuss things, help us all be more accepting and patient with each other.

Perhaps after a few decades of that we can let boys show up in class wearing a skirt and lipstick.

Earrings aren't socially unacceptable. That's the issue. A boy wearing a skirt is incredibly socially unacceptable and he will be bullied like crazy.

The child's safety needs to come before your ideology.

It's clear you have your mind made up. Good luck to you.