America kills its 1,500th citizen

Sonny noggs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

will this do as a source? i'm sure more can be found.

https://qz.com/1163140/us-nuclear-tests-killed-american-civilians-on-a-scale-comparable-to-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/

I’m aware that it happened, I don’t need a source.

seamus

TeaBagMania wrote: »

not thru the eyes of seamus, because im sure someone tampered with the video evidence and cloned his cell phone to be in that exact location

You're the one claiming you can prove guilt beyond all doubt.

And then you've introduced the doubt yourself to demonstrate that you cannot prove guilt beyond all doubt. I don't even have to respond, you keep trippng yourself up.

A threshold at which point you declare a conviction "proven absolutely", would be so far beyond provability as to make it utterly pointless - nobody would ever be proven guilty beyond all doubt.

Time

seamus wrote: »

You're the one claiming you can prove guilt beyond all doubt.

And then you've introduced the doubt yourself to demonstrate that you cannot prove guilt beyond all doubt. I don't even have to respond, you keep trippng yourself up.

A threshold at which point you declare a conviction "proven absolutely", would be so far beyond provability as to make it utterly pointless - nobody would ever be proven guilty beyond all doubt.

Feel free to dissect the flaws in my scenario then

Atoms for Peace

What do you get for being the 15000th, death by snu snu?

seamus

Time wrote: »

Feel free to dissect the flaws in my scenario then

It's already there, the guy above gave it to you. Fake CCTV, fake car, fake phone, planted/falsified DNA evidence.

You have evidence that the individual was at the scene.

But in order to prove abolutely conclusively that they were there beyond all doubt, you have to demonstrate that none of your evidence could have been faked. The onus is not on me to prove that it is fake, it's on you to prove it isn't.

And you can't do that, because you can't prove a negative.

That's the difference between reasonable doubt and all doubt.

Thrashssacre

My only problem with the death penalty is the method, apparently the injections are fierce expensive and it doesn’t exactly prevent there suffering. I don’t see why they can’t just execute by firing squad. I’d be all for Ireland bringing it in although I’m aware I’m in a minority on that one.

Manic Moran

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

American courts are a disgrace though. You can't just overturn a conviction by proving innocence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrera_v._Collins

You might want to read the fine print on that one.

It wasn't that he had no recourse, the court stated that the recourse he was looking for was not the correct one to pursue. He was filing in a federal court under a constitutional law issue when he was actually arguing a matter of fact from a state trial. Also, he had not proven anything.

From the opinion:

(c) Herrera is not left without a forum to raise his actual innocence claim. He may file a request for clemency under Texas law, which contains specific guidelines for pardons on the ground of innocence. History shows that executive clemency is the traditional "fail-safe" [506 U.S. 390, 392] remedy for claims of innocence based on new evidence, discovered too late in the day to file a new trial motion.

TeaBagMania

Time wrote: »

Feel free to dissect the flaws in my scenario then

he's trolling us, if you said the earth was round he'd say the earth was flat

Irish Guitarist

On the one hand I don't agree with the death penalty. On the other hand the justice system in Ireland where someone can have convictions in triple digits and barely be punished is even more ridiculous. I, unfortunately, know someone who has sexually assaulted numerous women and the worst punishment he's received is nine months in prison. If he were given a lethal injection I wouldn't cry any tears over him.

Time

seamus wrote: »

It's already there, the guy above gave it to you. Fake CCTV, fake car, fake phone, planted/falsified DNA evidence.

You have evidence that the individual was at the scene.

But in order to prove abolutely conclusively that they were there beyond all doubt, you have to demonstrate that none of your evidence could have been faked. The onus is not on me to prove that it is fake, it's on you to prove it isn't.

And you can't do that, because you can't prove a negative.

That's the difference between reasonable doubt and all doubt.

That argument holds no water in the real world and has no value outside of philosophical debate. Should the national lottery pay out on a claim with no ticket, because they can't prove the person didn't ever have the ticket?

In real life convictions are made on the basis of cumulative evidence and the suggestion that for your everyday murder that anyone would have the technical skill, monetary resources, and organisational ability to pull it off faking that level of evidence is just preposterous.

BeerWolf

Got no issues of capital punishment for heinous crimes.

rossie1977

Deleted User wrote: »

theres a bit to unpack here.

firstly, im not sure what 'per capita' means in one and not the other

Its per capita for both. Over 2 in every 100 black males in the US in 2010 were in prison. I think statistic is that one in every 10 us black males will spend some time in prison during their lives.

secondly, you seem to be equating men held in one system for crimes they stand accused of or convicted of under an american system vs a historical system of apartheid widely condemned as requiring little-to-no requirements for justice.

are you equating the two or just throwing out random statements

I am highlighting a point of comparison. Even during a period of widespread racial discrimination that there were less people of a certain race on average incarcerated than in current US.

What does that tell us about the US justice system as a whole..

The US has the biggest prison population on the planet and the highest incarceration rate per 100,000. People are being locked up for pretty minor crimes.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Time wrote: »

Hypothetically, let’s say the suspect is caught on HD CCTV committing a murder, their mobile phone places them at the scene as does their DNA, a car registered to them is seen leaving the scene, and finally, the suspects phone is tapped (legally) and a recording of them admitting to the murder and revealing non published details that would only be known by the killer.

Here we have CCTV for indemnification, DNA, phone and car at the crime scene and a confession. I’d say that combines to absolute proof of guilt.

CCTV can be falsified, even if it is not, the person could be misidentified. DNA can be, and has been planted, a phone can be cloned, so can registration plates of a vehicle and a confession can be coerced from a person. You have people admitting to crimes they know nothing about because they are told that everything will be ok and they can go home to mommy and daddy. It's all very elaborate but quite probable.

It's incredibly naive to think that these things cannot happen. They do.

TeaBagMania wrote: »

he's trolling us, if you said the earth was round he'd say the earth was flat

Disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. I don't agree with a lot of his posts but Seamus is certainly not a troll. Please try again.

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

Its per capita for both. Over 2 in every 100 black males in the US in 2010 were in prison. I think statistic is that one in every 10 us black males will spend some time in prison during their lives.



I am highlighting a point of comparison. Even during a period of widespread racial discrimination that there were less people of a certain race on average incarcerated than in current US.

What does that tell us about the US justice system as a whole..

The US has the biggest prison population on the planet and the highest incarceration rate per 100,000. People are being locked up for pretty minor crimes.

thanks for clarifying

its a bit of an aside from a debate on the death penalty. is anyone being put to death for petty minor crimes?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

TeaBagMania wrote: »

wow, you're really reaching

ten people ID the guy and its not good enough? im thinking even if it was a hundred eye witnesses it wouldn't be good enough for you

Of all the evidence you could put forward, an eye witness is the possibly the most unreliable. The number of eye witnesses is irrelevant. 100 eyewitnesses could ID somebody incorrectly. It's absolutely useless on it's own. Same with CCTV. Useless without other, very strong, evidence to back it up. You are incredibly naive to think an eyewitness is good evidence.

TeaBagMania wrote: »

impossible, no
improbable, yes

referencing a case from almost a hundred year ago, please :rolleyes:

The year of the case is not important when it comes to the law. I don't think time is important when it comes to case law, unless the case being referred to is outdated or unconstitutional. I'm open to correction on that though as I am not on the bar.

Time

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

CCTV can be falsified, even if it is not, the person could be misidentified. DNA can be, and has been planted, a phone can be cloned, so can registration plates of a vehicle and a confession can be coerced from a person. You have people admitting to crimes they know nothing about because they are told that everything will be ok and they can go home to mommy and daddy. It's all very elaborate but quite probable.

It's incredibly naive to think that these things cannot happen. They do.

Yes, individually but to say that all would be is just ridiculous, at that point to burden of proof would shift to the accused. Also a recorded confession from what they thought was a private conversation on a tapped line is very compelling evidence.

TeaBagMania

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

Of all the evidence you could put forward, an eye witness is the possibly the most unreliable.

"An" as in one eye witness might be unreliable, but ten? nope

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

Same with CCTV. Useless without other, very strong, evidence to back it up.

Well thats total BS, have someone on camera committing a crime and its useless? ok, how's life in fantasy land?

Snickers Man

TeaBagMania wrote: »

impossible, no
improbable, yes

referencing a case from almost a hundred year ago, please :rolleyes:

You mean from almost EXACTLY 75 years ago (June 1944). That's still in living memory.

Many were quick enough to "remember" D-Day, which happened in the same month.

Snickers Man

blanch152 wrote: »

China kills more than 1,500 every year.

Yet you won't see a thread about that.

Help me out here. What am I looking at right now?

janfebmar

Peatys wrote: »

We're better off without them.
Wonder would Peter Casey run on a capital punishment ticket?

Fair few could do with the rope

The government here At the time ( DeValera's) executed some IRA men in prison here in the 1940s, did they not, and no big outcry then either.

The Rapture

Who was that English guy who could drop them like a champ, Perripot or something.

Made hanging an art, have to respect someone who enjoys their work.

Anyway, USA MAGA

end of the road

blanch152 wrote: »

China kills more than 1,500 every year.

Yet you won't see a thread about that.


Edit: And the Iranians kill more per capita than the Americans, should we invade Iran to stop them?

we might see a thread on these issues if those complaining about there being no thread started one.

edit.
i see there is a thread on the chinese issue now.

Gael23

What happens to the earthly remains of condemned prisoners?

Gatling

Seem to remember China managed to execute prisoner's 12,000 in one year alone and apparently thats a conservative estimate from them .

And they list 46 crimes that lead to the death penalty

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

It's not relevant, the death penalty is abhorrent.

This. And it's also so many shades of abject stupidity. Its existence is a triumph of irrationality over all the research carried out on its effectiveness. It really is the lynch mob legalised. Morally, ethically and rationally the death penalty is utterly abhorrent.

I always find Dostoevsky's reflections on the death penalty to be more insightful than any other writer, given that he was sentenced to death in 1849 and only reprieved by the tzar after he had been blindfolded and the soldiers were standing in front of him about to fire.

The very related incarceration rate in the US is off the charts in not only its world-breaking size but in its complete stupidity it even surpasses the death penalty. Not only are many US prisons privatised but entire states - e.g. New York and West Virginia - have tens of thousands of people depending upon increasing the number of people who are sent to jail. This leads to politicians passing stronger laws with the sole purpose of keeping the 'prison-industrial complex' going. The entire system is now designed to produce repeat offenders who are returned to prison. You couldn't invent the system which the US have created, and you can be certain there are many more American judges getting paid by prison companies to send alleged offenders (usually black, but sin scéal eile) to their prisons. This reality of the US justice system is beyond dystopia, even if it gets almost zero international media coverage.

World Incarceration Rates If Every U.S. State Were A Country (2018)

fryup

just make sure you wet the sponge

Checkmate19

I like the way usa give proper sentences for serious crime. But death penalty i don't agree with. Purely on the fact that innocent people are convicted. In the us if your poor your up against the eight ball right from the start. To many cases of people being rail roaded. I'd say many have been put to death and being innocent.

Checkmate19

When you can get convicted by someone in jail saying you told them you did it usa should never have the death penalty.

mynamejeff

him and his fellow gang member murdered a prison officer and dumped his body on a residential street for reasons unknown in a state where it is well known they risked the death penalty

the only thing abhorrent about it is it took so long to put him to death , that bit is a bit cruel . should be done quickly as possible

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

TeaBagMania wrote: »

"An" as in one eye witness might be unreliable, but ten? nope

It doesn't really matter how many there, eyewitnesses should not be relied upon for many reasons. You can read more about it in these links;

https://www.pnas.org/content/114/30/7758

Look at the first case in this link, the eyewitness was the killer.

https://files.deathpenaltyinfo.org/legacy/files/pdf/StudyCWC2001A.pdf

Well thats total BS, have someone on camera committing a crime and its useless? ok, how's life in fantasy land?

CCTV can be faked, so as evidence on it's own, it's totally useless. Even if there's a ton of evidence the culprit should not be murdered.

Time wrote: »

Yes, individually but to say that all would be is just ridiculous, at that point to burden of proof would shift to the accused. Also a recorded confession from what they thought was a private conversation on a tapped line is very compelling evidence.

Like I said, it's not impossible for it to happen. People have been framed before and a plethora of evidence pointed the finger at an innocent person. That's why the death penalty is an absolute no go.