Why I am not a feminist and don't believe in 'equality'.

ILoveYourVibes

victor8600 wrote: »

I did not know that the goal of feminism is to save women from being feminine.

In any case, feminist and being feminine can co-exist. Especially because we are not going to argue with feminists, right? I am trying to compromise and to find a mutually agreeable solution here.

I think it is. But not consciously.

Thank you for your compromise. Am all ears to an agreeable solution.

I can just be nice to you and respect your views

Enough?

jam_mac_jam

Hedgelayer wrote: »

Femminists don't really like masculine men until they dump the simple quite imasculated guy they thought was a walkover, until he took the red pill and walked off into the sunset...

Then she goes looking for an alpha and he's like no effing way am I dating a femminist

Alpha? We are not wolves and this doesn't really apply to humans. one person can be an “Apha” in sport but terrible intellectually, if I am a reader I am more likely to look for the Apha intellectually. If I like sport I like the sporty “alpha”.
This is all pseudo science bull**** made up to try and simplify human physiology.



course there are feminists who masculine men, there are feminists who like all kinds of things. How would you know? Have you done a survey.


I am not even sure what a very masculine man is anyway, hairy, intelligent, aggressive, tall, supportive, strong?

RIGOLO

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

That's very interesting. I didn't know that about the anti flak operators. Any good books to recommend?

To be honest , I have over fifty books on those subjects, and I can safely say Ive never read a bad book written by a woman about a womans expereince on the Home Front or frontline service in WW1 or WW2. Theres so many angles to their story and so many levels to embrace the books , whether its social, historical, human, hope, despair, tragedy, comedy , the military operations or technical details or just as a good novel.

Kathleen Beauman The Story of WVS is a technical account of the WVS organisation, its evolution and its efforts
Im currently reading Pip Beck A WAAF in Bomber Command, Im only half way thru, shes just turned 21 and has already lost 3 boyfriends (one being a fiancee) who never came home from a bombing raid over mainland Europe, yet life goes on and she goes on.

Dip your toe in should be easy to find books on this online , let me know how you get on .

B0jangles

Ace Immense Starter wrote: »

Ah hun. Half of the odder parts of reddit and YouTube agree with you.

It's like a car crash between a random youtube comments section and a blog about the mystical healing powers of crystal angel unicorns. Very bizarre.

hatrickpatrick

I was thinking about the feminist critiques of the women in Game of Thrones, and the more I think about it, the more it seems that feminists are, ironically, affording men a lot more freedom to be themselves than they are affording to women these days. Certainly when it comes to characters in fiction, you can write any kind of man you want and feminists won't care, but there's no way you can characterise women which won't get attacked by feminists. Some examples in the context of GoT:

--Complaining about the amount of sexual assault, despite the fact that the show also depicts its victims overcoming that and in many cases ultimately getting revenge on their tormenters

--Complaining about the lack of strong female characters (Arya, Brienne, Ygritte, Yara, Margery being just a few off the top of my head who are exceptionally strong characters)

--Complaining that there are no female characters who do anything out of pure nobility for the greater good (Brienne of Tarth is so noble she could basically be a Stark,

--Complaining that some female characters such as Cersei or Lysa are protrayed as "crazy" (the show has just as many insane male characters - Joffrey, Ramsay, Euron, Qyburn to name a few)

--Complaining that Sansa talks of how she matured as a character partly in response to trying to overcome her enslavement and rape by Ramsay (because God forbid anyone try to take something positive from an utterly sh!t situation)

I could go on and on. My reason for mentioning all of this is that the feminist critiques are so utterly contradictory. What kind of female characters are acceptable to these people? The male characters in Game of Thrones display the whole wide range of humanity, from good people, bad people, emotional people, stony-hearted people, strong people, weak people, noble people, selfish people, etc. And nobody condemns the writing for that. But in this and many other cases, it seems to me that some feminists want to put female characters in a box, with a very stringent list of criteria necessary for them to pass the "this is not problematic" test - which, if writers and authors actually bowed to feminist critique, would leave us with multi-dimensional, interesting, varied ranges of male characters, and extremely predictable, boring, one dimensional female characters just for the sake of not triggering some feminist critic.

I think this extends to real life as well though. Women get attacked by feminists for all sorts of choices - feminists seem to believe that there's no such thing as an individual, and that when women make choices either for the moment or for life, they are somehow "representing womankind" or "setting an example", or somehow carrying the burdens of all other women on their shoulders. So while I, as a man, can make any decisions I feel like in a vacuum, because I'm not somehow representing a collective, there are a lot of feminists who do not afford this same freedom to women. I think the stay at home mother thing is a prime example - if a man decides to stay at home, he's praised by feminists for smashing gender roles. If a woman decides to do it, a lot of feminists accuse her of "letting the side down". So in that particular case, and in many other cases, feminist ideology says to men "do whatever you like", while saying to women, "you're representing a bigger thing than just yourself, behave accordingly".

To my mind, that's all sorts of f*cked up.

bodice ripper

I reject your concept of femininity OP and substitute my own.

jam_mac_jam

RIGOLO wrote: »

To be honest , I have over fifty books on those subjects, and I can safely say Ive never read a bad book written by a woman about a womans expereince on the Home Front or frontline service in WW1 or WW2. Theres so many angles to their story and so many levels to embrace the books , whether its social, historical, human, hope, despair, tragedy, comedy , the military operations or technical details or just as a good novel.

Kathleen Beauman The Story of WVS is a technical account of the WVS organisation, its evolution and its efforts
Im currently reading Pip Beck A WAAF in Bomber Command, Im only half way thru, shes just turned 21 and has already lost 3 boyfriends (one being a fiancee) who never came home from a bombing raid over mainland Europe, yet life goes on and she goes on.

Dip your toe in should be easy to find books on this online , let me know how you get on .

Sounds fascinating, I will have a look. Thank you.

ILoveYourVibes

bodice ripper wrote: »

I reject your concept of femininity OP and substitute my own.

Fair nuff.


Just don't let it become a masculine society.

ILoveYourVibes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I was thinking about the feminist critiques of the women in Game of Thrones, and the more I think about it, the more it seems that feminists are, ironically, affording men a lot more freedom to be themselves than they are affording to women these days. Certainly when it comes to characters in fiction, you can write any kind of man you want and feminists won't care, but there's no way you can characterise women which won't get attacked by feminists. Some examples in the context of GoT:

--Complaining about the amount of sexual assault, despite the fact that the show also depicts its victims overcoming that and in many cases ultimately getting revenge on their tormenters

--Complaining about the lack of strong female characters (Arya, Brienne, Ygritte, Yara, Margery being just a few off the top of my head who are exceptionally strong characters)

--Complaining that there are no female characters who do anything out of pure nobility for the greater good (Brienne of Tarth is so noble she could basically be a Stark,

--Complaining that some female characters such as Cersei or Lysa are protrayed as "crazy" (the show has just as many insane male characters - Joffrey, Ramsay, Euron, Qyburn to name a few)

--Complaining that Sansa talks of how she matured as a character partly in response to trying to overcome her enslavement and rape by Ramsay (because God forbid anyone try to take something positive from an utterly sh!t situation)

I could go on and on. My reason for mentioning all of this is that the feminist critiques are so utterly contradictory. What kind of female characters are acceptable to these people? The male characters in Game of Thrones display the whole wide range of humanity, from good people, bad people, emotional people, stony-hearted people, strong people, weak people, noble people, selfish people, etc. And nobody condemns the writing for that. But in this and many other cases, it seems to me that some feminists want to put female characters in a box, with a very stringent list of criteria necessary for them to pass the "this is not problematic" test - which, if writers and authors actually bowed to feminist critique, would leave us with multi-dimensional, interesting, varied ranges of male characters, and extremely predictable, boring, one dimensional female characters just for the sake of not triggering some feminist critic.

I think this extends to real life as well though. Women get attacked by feminists for all sorts of choices - feminists seem to believe that there's no such thing as an individual, and that when women make choices either for the moment or for life, they are somehow "representing womankind" or "setting an example", or somehow carrying the burdens of all other women on their shoulders. So while I, as a man, can make any decisions I feel like in a vacuum, because I'm not somehow representing a collective, there are a lot of feminists who do not afford this same freedom to women. I think the stay at home mother thing is a prime example - if a man decides to stay at home, he's praised by feminists for smashing gender roles. If a woman decides to do it, a lot of feminists accuse her of "letting the side down". So in that particular case, and in many other cases, feminist ideology says to men "do whatever you like", while saying to women, "you're representing a bigger thing than just yourself, behave accordingly".

To my mind, that's all sorts of f*cked up.

I have not followed closely. I just post the odd meme etc.

ILoveYourVibes

Ace Immense Starter wrote: »

Ah hun. Half of the odder parts of reddit and YouTube agree with you.

For the wrong reasons.

Hedgelayer

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Alpha? We are not wolves and this doesn't really apply to humans. one person can be an “Apha” in sport but terrible intellectually, if I am a reader I am more likely to look for the Apha intellectually. If I like sport I like the sporty “alpha”.
This is all pseudo science bull**** made up to try and simplify human physiology.



course there are feminists who masculine men, there are feminists who like all kinds of things. How would you know? Have you done a survey.


I am not even sure what a very masculine man is anyway, hairy, intelligent, aggressive, tall, supportive, strong?

You're quite welcome to design your own action man if you like it's all about being ourselves, look up masculine in the dictionary....

And the rest is at your discression....

bodice ripper

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Fair nuff.


Just don't let it become a masculine society.

If I reject your idea of what constitutes feminine, I probably take a fairly dim view of what you think is masculine...

ILoveYourVibes

Glass fused light wrote: »

Is that label ment for me?

Because I don't agree that your education gave you an understanding of feminist history?
Because I don't agree that your ability to be regarded as something more than a chattel, has nothing to do with woman who individually and collectively won the rights you enjoy today?

Whoosh!

NO. Because you are mean. And you think being aggressive is clever.

jam_mac_jam

Hedgelayer wrote: »

You're quite welcome to design your own action man if you like it's all about being ourselves, look up masculine in the dictionary....

And the rest is at your discression....

I have one already thanks.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

B0jangles wrote: »

It's like a car crash between a random youtube comments section and a blog about the mystical healing powers of crystal angel unicorns. Very bizarre.

The gay misogynist popping his head up every once in a while is a pretty original twist!

ILoveYourVibes

bodice ripper wrote: »

If I reject your idea of what constitutes feminine, I probably take a fairly dim view of what you think is masculine...

Well if the world were all the same ...it would be boring.

I wonder if I were to write a novel like game of thrones how i could work my view in subversively.

Hedgelayer

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Prince harry ended up with Meghan

He's adorable isn't he prince Harry, a real bloke...

Is she going to imasculate him ?

I hope not

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by B0jangles View Post
It's like a car crash between a random youtube comments section and a blog about the mystical healing powers of crystal angel unicorns. Very bizarre.

Tell me your starsign. :P??

Hedgelayer

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I have one already thanks.

You're welcome, thanks for the response

BalcombeSt4

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Also something my grandfather once said.

That if women worked ...men would use it as an excuse not to.

I think that has turned out to be true. For a certain section of society imo.

Now I don't have anything against women who work. But it does CHANGE women I think. Not always for the better. We are so aggressive.

And yes I do work.

I am just being honest.

No offense but your grandfather sounds a bit backward & stupid, just being honest.

ILoveYourVibes

Hedgelayer wrote: »

He's adorable isn't he prince Harry, a real bloke...

Is she going to imasculate him ?

I hope not

I never liked him TBH. Maybe it's because he is the british thingy.

I can't see what she sees in him.

Hedgelayer

Ace Immense Starter wrote: »

The gay misogynist popping his head up every once in a while is a pretty original twist!

Ironically his name is Oliver or it could be Olivia your call electro bitch

ILoveYourVibes

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

No offense but your grandfather sounds a bit backward & stupid, just being honest.

It would kind of hard for me not to take offense at that now wouldn't it be honest?

Perhaps if you didn't want me to take offense you needn't have said it.

But well you did say it. So i will not take it too personally and give you the benefit of the doubt.


He wasn't. He was very wise. Definitely not backwards.

Silentcorner

Jesus, what is with the attitude toward the OP, all she said is she was a non believer...

Hedgelayer

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I never liked him TBH. Maybe it's because he is the british thingy.

I can't see what she sees in him.

I can lol money,prestige, poor girl, she can't really monkey branch any higher than a potential King....

bodice ripper

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Well if the world were all the same ...it would be boring.

.

Buuuuuut being competitive is an exclusively masculine trait. Everyone should be more girly, or the men win.

RIGOLO

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

No offense but your grandfather sounds a bit backward & stupid, just being honest.

now that sounds a bit harsh and mean ...

one thing to attack the OP for daring to express an opinion but now its attacks on the OPs family members who arent here to defend themselves..

I did try to warn you there are no limits to what posters will say when you break the tribe rules ..

NO OFFENCE - YOUR GRANDFATHERS BACKWARD AND STUPID ...
count yourself lucky , can you imagine what they might say if they did want to offend you ...

Hedgelayer

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus, what is with the attitude toward the OP, all she said is she was a non believer...

She offended the femminists or femmimisn sympathisers...

Which isn't hard,a lot of her respondents are reactions rather than response....

If it's a wind up she sure did ruffle some feather s, although I find it rather entertaining..

I'm getting it too, being called a misogynistic gay man by electronic bitch lol

ArchXStanton

The more I look at it... Feminism was the biggest lie ever sold to women, we can see the fallout of it now

jam_mac_jam

In fairness the OP has been completely polite at all stages when she is being questioned by and disagreed with by many people including myself.
So I think it would be fair to back off a bit. A discussion should be possible, as requested.

And sorry if I have been rude, I feel it’s a bit unfair now.

RIGOLO

bodice ripper wrote: »

Buuuuuut being competitive is an exclusively masculine trait. Everyone should be more girly, or the men win.

Are you not watching the Womens World Cup then ....

ILoveYourVibes

Hedgelayer wrote: »

I can lol money,prestige, poor girl, she can't really monkey branch any higher than a potential King....

Oh well yeah ...sorry i forgot that. That stuff never mattered to me much.

bodice ripper

RIGOLO wrote: »

Are you not watching the Womens World Cup then ....

Football is dull as dishwater regardless of who is playing it.

ILoveYourVibes

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

In fairness the OP has been completely polite at all stages when she is being questioned by and disagreed with by many people including myself.
So I think it would be fair to back off a bit. A discussion should be possible, as requested.

And sorry if I have been rude, I feel it’s a bit unfair now.

No worries. That's ok

I can be ever so annoying etc. And not always polite myself.

Its hard online etc. You forget what things can look like in print.

eviltwin

It's a very privileged woman who can say she's not a feminist.

ILoveYourVibes

bodice ripper wrote: »

Football is dull as dishwater regardless of who is playing it.

It SO is.

One eyed Jack

Stheno wrote: »

That's one wave of feminism tbh not all

Absolutely, and given the way the thread has gone, it’s somewhat representative of what feminism as an ideology has become - literally different things to different people depending upon who you ask. The OP is being told they don’t understand what feminism is, by people who have a different idea of what feminism is for them.

Now I don’t think that’s a bad thing for the individual, but it’s a terrible thing for feminism, which I would regard as a collective set of shared ideals among women, for the welfare and benefit of women and girls. If everyone has their own ideas about the best way forward, then how are they ever supposed to achieve anything as a collective when nobody appears to be able to agree on anything?

I think individualism as an ideology has rendered feminism redundant and powerless tbh.

Vincent van Gogh

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a very privileged woman who can say she's not a feminist.

So the majority of women are privileged?

Hedgelayer

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Oh well yeah ...sorry i forgot that. That stuff never mattered to me much.

Just go to any shopping mall on a wet Sunday you'll see all the imasculated guy's being dragged along looking miserable and wishing they're out golfing, fishing or surfing....

Hes usually weighted down with shopping bags with women's clothing shops labeled on the bags....and pushing the buggy with the other hand, standing outside Zara's, wondering how's they're going to pay for the winter's heating bill if this keeps up

eviltwin

Vincent van Gogh wrote: »

So the majority of women are privileged?

In this thread absolutely

Silentcorner

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a very privileged woman who can say she's not a feminist.

Actually, it's mostly privileged women who believe themselves to be feminists...its not exactly a working class movement.

Women who are privileged by an education system, a health system and a justice system...who believe themselves to be oppressed!!!

Airyfairy12

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not true.


Women studied long before that.

Wealthy women studied long before that.


You sound incredibly privileged and naive, youre looking at the past - to a time you likely didnt experience - with rose tinted glasses.

I remember hearing an old lady talking about how her husband used to rape her - 'Sure he was only taking his rights' she said, that is how women where treated up until very recently, husbands could legally rape and beat their wives up until the 80's, the last Magdalene laundry was shut in 96 and I believe that was around the same year contraception and divorce were legalised here although im open to correction.

During these times women were expected to be meek, docile and selfless housewives, putting men and childrens needs before their own - essentially women were required to be doormats. What happens to doormats? They get walked on and abused.
These expectations on women left them in very vulnerable and dangerous circumstances, particularly under privileged women who where more likely to become trapped in an abusive marriage, leaving their husband would result in stigma, shame and possibly homelessness with no way of supporting themselves due to lack of financial independence, no way of protecting themselves and no where to turn. This left children vulnerable too, particularly under privileged children.

It sounds like you watch far too many 1950's American sitcoms.

Wibbs

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Alpha? We are not wolves and this doesn't really apply to humans.

It doesn't even apply to wolves. The idea that it did came from early studies into captive unrelated animals all around the same age all thrown together. Basically ended up as a lord of the flies scenario with teenagers and lots of jostling for position without any adults around. The wolf researcher chap who crystallised the theory has since disowned it as nonsense. In the wild a pack is simply a family of animals, with mammy and daddy running most of the show until the kids grow up, leave and start their own families. Like us basically and likely why we were such a great fit for each other, hence the doggies(other great apes don't work like this).

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Just don't let it become a masculine society.

It can easily be argued that much of western society is female centric on a practical day to day level. Women get more social support and protection, more medical research and therapies aimed at them, live longer and are on average more educated(and earn more on average before kids come into it). Get a couple to stand on the street and have the man pretend to assault the woman, then try another street and reverse that. Observe the difference in attitudes.

In the end however society is increasingly being fractured and moulded to make the most amount of cash for the few. The whole gender politics bollocks plugs into that. Look at advertising and marketing, it's more and more aimed at women over the last few decades. Women appear to buy more stuff and get bigger dopamine hits from that on average and in couples it's usually the woman who tends to make a lot of the buying decisions. No conspiracy notions of lizards from space required either. It's just how it has panned out as much by luck as by design, but with more of the latter as the money came rolling in.

Glass fused light

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

NO. Because you are mean. And you think being aggressive is clever.

Where was I mean?
Is stating my opinion you appear to have a very limited understanding of how you had the right attend college being mean?
Or asking you about historic events which gave woman equal rights

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Women were supported financially by husbands. that is a TYPE of payment.

1990 Yep Less than 30 years ago the state legislated that a married woman had the right to say no.

ILoveYourVibes

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a very privileged woman who can say she's not a feminist.

True.

But at the same time it's a privileged woman who can say she IS a feminist too.

I mean for a woman who is just a refugee ...with no home no food no water ...it's the last thing on her mind.

I remember M.I.A saying as much in her OXFORD address.

Feminism can be a luxury.

Hedgelayer

Silentcorner wrote: »

Actually, it's mostly privileged women who believe themselves to be feminists...its not exactly a working class movement.

Women who are privileged by an education system, a health system and a justice system...who believe themselves to be oppressed!!!

If you're competitive never go flyfishing with one because hand's down women are the elitist stealthiest hunters knowb to man, they can drop a dry fly on the nose of a trout,and strike it like a Pro....

Myself and butch Mary my lesbian femminst friend often go fly fishing together and I always go home with less fish than her...

We slag and insult each other to no end but at the end of the day it's harmless banter between a misogynistic gay man and a lipstick lesbian....
I call her butch Mary because she's quite the opposite

We'd make a lovely couple...

Friends for life but never husband and wife...

ILoveYourVibes

Glass fused light wrote: »

Where was I mean?
Is stating my opinion you appear to have a very limited understanding of how you had the right attend college being mean?
Or asking you about historic events which gave woman equal rights


1990 Yep Less than 30 years ago the state legislated that a married woman had the right to say no.

It could be interpreted as mean. It's also patronizing. But then it's your opinion.

It wouldn't cost you anything to change the tone.

But then that is just the way you express yourself i suppose. Its how you are. I will try to accept it.

You are a difficult person to talk to without getting into an argument if you don't mind my saying. Its difficult to talk casually with you ...well for me right now anyhow.

I suppose i am not the easiest to get on with from your point of view right now etc.

1990
Was it like that in reality though ?? No.

Dial Hard

ILoveYourVibes wrote:

1990 Was it like that in reality though ?? No.

I would put ANY money on a bet that in 1990 you weren't even born.

Airyfairy12

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

1990
Was it like that in reality though ?? No.

Yes it was, for many, many women, particularly poor women that didnt have the means or family support to leave their abusive husbands. This law was brought in because abused women fought hard for it.

ILoveYourVibes

Wibbs wrote: »

It can easily be argued that much of western society is female centric on a practical day to day level. Women get more social support and protection, more medical research and therapies aimed at them, live longer and are on average more educated(and earn more on average before kids come into it). Get a couple to stand on the street and have the man pretend to assault the woman, then try another street and reverse that. Observe the difference in attitudes.

In the end however society is increasingly being fractured and moulded to make the most amount of cash for the few. The whole gender politics bollocks plugs into that. Look at advertising and marketing, it's more and more aimed at women over the last few decades. Women appear to buy more stuff and get bigger dopamine hits from that on average and in couples it's usually the woman who tends to make a lot of the buying decisions. No conspiracy notions of lizards from space required either. It's just how it has panned out as much by luck as by design, but with more of the latter as the money came rolling in.

I think there SHOULD be a difference in attitudes to men and women being assaulted. And yes I agree with you there is definitely.

I definitely think young men ..there is some disconnect between them and society. I agree with you.

All that is aimed at them seems to be toxic ..negative. Not self esteem building etc.

I dont look at a lot of ads etc. They are just annoying. But I know some from the other side of the mirror.

Women making decisions about spending ...yes...i know from my work companies KNOW that too.

They do market studies into it all the time. How women spend etc is big business.

I suppose it would be natural for women to make household spending decisions and men to make bigger ones.