Issues with the property before closing

Jack_92

I went sale agreed a few months ago on a second hand apartment (first time buyer). I have got a survey done that indicated that there were moisture stains underneath the tank but dry at the inspection and there was no visible stains on the ceilings. Before I signed the contracts I asked my solicitor when I should do my final walk through and they advised that it would be up to me. The contracts were signed a week ago and I was to close today. I did my final walk through and found out that there are extensive stains underneath and around the place where tank is located. I have contacted the EA and they informed me that the vendor is not going to rectify anything and the property will be sold as it is now. I have checked with the surveyor and he confirmed that there was no stains on the ceiling when he visited the property.



Our solicitor informed me that the contract states that I take the property ‘as you find it on the date of sale (i.e. the date of the contract)’ which means that the vendor is not responsible for any defects which were in existence on or prior to the date of the contract (i.e a week ago)



I believe that I wasn’t informed properly and there was a risk by not advising to visit the property before signing given that there was a few months period from survey to closing and its condition could have changed. I asked to see the property earlier but were told by the EA that I couldn't see the property until closer to the closing date. Our understanding was that the purpose of the final walk through was to make sure that the condition of the property hasn't changed since the survey.

I completely understand the consequences and I have no intention of pulling out but if it was made clear to me perhaps I would insist more to view the property before signing. Either way I’m going to proceed with closing but I was wondering what are peoples thoughts on this.

Thanks

4ensic15

The only thing you can do is stall and dely in the hope the owner gets fed up and makes a gesture. Your surveyor may also be lying and didn't see the stains the first time.

Dav010

4ensic15 wrote: »

The only thing you can do is stall and dely in the hope the owner gets fed up and makes a gesture. Your surveyor may also be lying and didn't see the stains the first time.

The contract has been signed.

Op, unlike consumer law, you have the benefit of a legal advisor before you sign, you now have to talk to your solicitor and surveyor to see what went wrong with their performance but you are now committed to buying the property in the agreed timeframe unless you want to walk away and take a massive financial hit.

Sleeper12

Jack I understand your stress but I wonder if you are reading too much into this.

I'm a plumber by trade and watermarks on a ceiling isn't anything to get too worried about in most cases. Water stain is under what tank? Attic tank or hot water cylinder? Is it just a water stain or is water dripping from the ceiling. Worst scenario as I see it is a new hot water cylinder around 500 supplied & fitted or a new cold water attic tank 500 supplied & fitted. Leaking fittings 100 to 300 euros. It would have to be a long standing leak to cause major damage. A long standing major leak would most likely have mushrooms growing out of it. Surveyor wouldn't have missed this

Unless more damage than I'm thinking then not a deal breaker on a new home. Most likely stains were always there & surveyor missed them. Most likely you were planning on painting & decorating your new home

4ensic15

Dav010 wrote: »

The contract has been signed.

Op, unlike consumer law, you have the benefit of a legal advisor before you sign, you now have to talk to your solicitor and surveyor to see what went wrong with their performance but you are now committed to buying the property in the agreed timeframe unless you want to walk away and take a massive financial hit.

If he is late closing the vendor has to serve a notice requiring him to close, unless time is of the essence in the contract. (It hardly ever is). There is no massive financial hit is stalling things a bit.

TSQ

I had a bad leak, painted the ceiling afterwards with a water based stain block. All looked fine. 6 months later i got an awful shock.. was away for a few weeks and on return ceiling was stained as if leak had recurred. However ceiling was not damp to the touch...turns out i should have used an oil based stain block, anything less and the stains seep through again in time. I suspect this is your problem, especially since you say below the tank is dry.

Dav010

4ensic15 wrote: »

If he is late closing the vendor has to serve a notice requiring him to close, unless time is of the essence in the contract. (It hardly ever is). There is no massive financial hit is stalling things a bit.

The op still has to complete once contract has been signed. You know the implications of not doing so.

joeguevara

Dav010 wrote: »

The op still has to complete once contract has been signed. You know the implications of not doing so.

Instead of alluding to the implications outline them. Never have I seen any property sale complete on the date in the contract and delays are par for the course.

The letter of the law states that they can be sued and may lose deposit but never have I seen it.

So a couple of choices:

See how extensive damage is and agree a solution.
Keep delaying saying this and that and seller will get frustrated and give back deposit and pull out.

To go to court would probably cost more than the remediation.

One thing I find strange is Claude of you taking risk of everything after contract signed. Did you have property insured (doubtful). I never have had a solicitor allow me to take possession or risk on anything without insurance in place . They appear negligent here. What if house burned down. Would you have been liable?

What if house collapsed due to a flood. Would you have been liable? I haven’t heard of this and should complain to solicitor and say that it appears that they failed in duty of care to you.

voluntary

Sellers can request you to pay 8% APR on late payments. If they figure that you're delaying for purpose then they'll likely will ask for interest to speed you up.

At the other hand, is there really no protection for buyer between a date he signs a contract and receives keys? The seller could wreck the place in the meantime, it could explode, flood, burn or who knows what.

Dav010

joeguevara wrote: »

The letter of the law states that they can be sued and may lose deposit but never have I seen it.

Delays are to be expected, I’ve never been involved in a property transaction which closed precisely on the date agreed in the contract, they either completed before or after. But, the op has signed the contract so the purchase either eventually goes through or the op walks away albeit forfeiting a considerable sum.

Google is your friend for court cases where purchasers were required to complete sales after contracts were signed.

joeguevara

Dav010 wrote: »

Delays are to be expected, I’ve never been involved in a property transaction which closed precisely on the date agreed in the contract, they either completed before or after. But, the op has signed the contract so the purchase either eventually goes through or the op walks away albeit forfeiting a considerable sum.

Google is your friend for court cases where purchasers were required to complete sales after contracts were signed.

You are completely right theoretically but every case is different. In the op’s situation it could be argued and required to be proven that the defect was not in place when the contract was signed. Now it may be difficult seeing as the survey didn’t pick it up. Now, to counteract that argument the op could argue that it was known by the seller hence the strange contract clause of ‘the purchaser is liable for any defect. Also the purchaser could argue that the seller did not take reasonable steps to protect property from defects. The buyer could also argue that the solicitor was negligent in not advising of their liabilities.

All of the above will draw out process of which the buyer is entitled to do. Now it is not guaranteed the outcome is what the op is looking for but depending on damage it may secure a decrease in asking price. No way should they roll over.

Found this article which may be of help. https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/property/i-ve-discovered-that-the-seller-didn-t-disclose-a-defect-with-my-house-is-there-anything-i-can-do-1-4859244

Lumen

Just buy the apartment, call a plumber, paint the ceiling and get on with your life.

joeguevara

Lumen wrote: »

Just buy the apartment, call a plumber, paint the ceiling and get on with your life.

While normally I would completely agree, water damage can be huge and the fact of the clause makes me wonder what that damage is. It may be much more than simply painting ceilings and not something to be rushed into. Especially as the solicitor should have warned the op. Too many red flags here to just simply take that risk.

Dav010

joeguevara wrote: »

While normally I would completely agree, water damage can be huge and the fact of the clause makes me wonder what that damage is. It may be much more than simply painting ceilings and not something to be rushed into. Especially as the solicitor should have warned the op. Too many red flags here to just simply take that risk.

The op said his own survey noted the water stains, that was the time to discuss with the seller.

A leak isn’t a red flag, you just find the source and fix it. If that is the only issue with a property, I’d be happy enough.

You link, based on UK property sale, relates to misrepresentation of the condition of the property such as claiming when asked, that it was free of subsidence when if fact it wasn’t,. Property sales here place the responsibility on the buyer to protect themselves by engaging a surveyor and solicitor. As said in the op, stains were there on date of survey, op was told this by his own surveyor.

Jack_92

Dav010 wrote: »

The op said his own survey noted the water stains, that was the time to discuss with the seller.

You're correct, our survey did indicate water stains underneath the tank that were dry during inspection there is even a photo of these stains in the report. However there is also a photo of the moisture meter indicating that the area all around tank is completely dry. Although I don't have a professional eye, I did noticed during my final walk through that the bottom of one of the floor joist underneath the tank was wet. I took photo of it.

Our solicitor advised me that after the contacts are signed the property is held at the vendor's risk unless the damage is, inter alia, as she described "inconequential damage or insubstantial deterioration from reasonable wear and tear in the course of normal occupation and use, and not materially affecting value"

She also advised that if i was to have a remedy:
1 the damage would have to be significant
2 I have to be able to prove that the defect only came into existence after the contracts were signed.

Surveyors report does include many photos, and although I could be wrong, he would hardly miss these stains on the ceilings, they are quite apparent now , and even if he missed them I would probably notice them myself if they were there in the first place.

I probably don't have much choice but to complete sale and hoping it will turn out to be a minor issue in the future!

Dav010

Jack, if this is going to be your home, you will probably be painting it anyway so a few stains won’t make a difference. At the worst, you may have to replace a water heater/immersion, take the opportunity to upgrade to a more efficient one that saves money. In the scheme of things when buying, his isn’t a big thing.

joeguevara

Jack_92 wrote: »

You're correct, our survey did indicate water stains underneath the tank that were dry during inspection there is even a photo of these stains in the report. However there is also a photo of the moisture meter indicating that the area all around tank is completely dry. Although I don't have a professional eye, I did noticed during my final walk through that the bottom of one of the floor joist underneath the tank was wet. I took photo of it.

Our solicitor advised me that after the contacts are signed the property is held at the vendor's risk unless the damage is, inter alia, as she described "inconequential damage or insubstantial deterioration from reasonable wear and tear in the course of normal occupation and use, and not materially affecting value"

She also advised that if i was to have a remedy:
1 the damage would have to be significant
2 I have to be able to prove that the defect only came into existence after the contracts were signed.

Surveyors report does include many photos, and although I could be wrong, he would hardly miss these stains on the ceilings, they are quite apparent now , and even if he missed them I would probably notice them myself if they were there in the first place.

I probably don't have much choice but to complete sale and hoping it will turn out to be a minor issue in the future!

Get your surveyor back if they missed something. Don’t be pushed into something that other people missed.

Hannibal_Smith

joeguevara wrote: »

Get your surveyor back if they missed something. Don’t be pushed into something that other people missed.

This. Talk to the surveyor. What did they say in their report about the stains?

Jack_92

joeguevara wrote: »

Found this article which may be of help. https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/property/i-ve-discovered-that-the-seller-didn-t-disclose-a-defect-with-my-house-is-there-anything-i-can-do-1-4859244

Interesting article but it describes options if defects were discovered after completion, whereas in my case defects were discovered between contract signed and completion

antoinolachtnai

Jack_92 wrote: »

Interesting article but it describes options if defects were discovered after completion, whereas in my case defects were discovered between contract signed and completion

This has nothing to do with the legal situation in Ireland.

You are very concerned about this. You do not have the knowledge or experience to assess the risk which is understandable. Get the surveyor back. It may cost a few hundred euros but for the assurance it is worth it to you. He will tell you what needs to be done.

If things are as they appear to us, the vendor will not back down on this. The vendor is in a very strong position in practical terms.

Dav010

Jack_92 wrote: »

Interesting article but it describes options if defects were discovered after completion, whereas in my case defects were discovered between contract signed and completion

What??

You posted earlier the stains were noted, and photographed by your surveyor. As survey is done before contracts are signed, you were aware of an issue earlier than you are claiming.

Jack_92

Dav010 wrote: »

What??

You posted earlier the stains were noted, and photographed by your surveyor. As survey is done before contracts are signed, you were aware of an issue earlier than you are claiming.

'I have got a survey done that indicated that there were moisture stains underneath the tank but dry at the inspection and there was no visible stains on the ceilings...I did my final walk through and found out that there are extensive stains underneath and around the place where tank is located. '

Perhaps I wasn't clear: there are apparent stains on the ceiling that weren't there when the survey was done, similarly there were dry stains around the water tank during the survey but now the floor joists are damp ( discovered during the final walk)

Graham

I can't help but think the cheapest/quickest option for you will be to complete the sale and fix whatever needs fixing.

What has your solicitor advised?

P. Breathnach

It's an apartment. Is the suspect tank in the apartment, or is it part of the OMC's area of responsibility?

It might be more appropriate to take the matter up with the Managing Agent than with the vendor.

Jack_92

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's an apartment. Is the suspect tank in the apartment, or is it part of the OMC's area of responsibility?

It might be more appropriate to take the matter up with the Managing Agent than with the vendor.

Funny enough attic area belongs to the OMC whereas the water storage tank belongs to the owner. Our solicitor is checking this. Eventually the vendor agreed to rectify it before closing. Thanks for all your advise and input. For anyone purchasing an apartment (or any type of property) I would advise to insist visiting the place once again before returning signed contracts especially if there is a long period between the survey and contact signing.