What constitutes "reasonable" overtime?

mistermaster

As the title says…what constitutes “reasonable” overtime?

My wife was promoted in her work about six months ago, from what was basically a junior management position to a middle management one. Ever since, she’s been doing what I consider an extraordinary number of extra hours.

Her basic working day is 9 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. and before promotion that was basically what she did, apart from the odd day where she might stay back for 20 minutes or half an hour to get something finished, like many people do.

But now she’s often in the office by 8 a.m. “to try get ahead for the day”, stays back at least half an hour or maybe an hour most evenings, and then brings the laptop home and spends maybe another half hour or hour each night doing e-mails and the like.

Altogether, I reckon she’s doing an average extra seven to eight hours in the office each week, and maybe three to four hours on the computer at home at night. Basically the same as an extra day or day and a half each week – all unpaid overtime and no opportunity for time in lieu either.

When I ask her about it, she says her new contract says she has to do “reasonable” overtime, and also that she’s on a year probation in the position and doesn’t want to make an issue of things. I can understand her up to a point but I don’t think what she’s doing is “reasonable” and I’d also wonder if doing all that now means she’ll be doing it forever, even after her probation.

I also ask her to think about how she's basically doing an extra day a week (or more) for no extra pay. If they said to her that she had to stick to regular office hours Monday to Friday but then go in every Saturday too, for no extra pay, she'd say "no way". But she does it this way instead.

FWIW, she did get a decent pay rise when she was promoted, but if you factor in the extra hours she's doing now, she's probably coming out with less money per hour than she was then.

Curious what other people think or what other people’s experiences of “reasonable” unpaid overtime might be?

B_ecke_r

if she's doing that much hours it's either 2 things

she's not able for the job

or it's a 2 person job..

decent pay rise or not she's basically given up all her spare time.

OMM 0000

She's working too hard.

I bet you no one has asked her to work this hard, or expects her to work this hard.

Mrs OBumble

She's still learning the job. The extra hours aren't unreasonable, especially this early into it. If she's still doing those hours in 12 months time, that's an issue though.

And overall, if she wants to climb the management ladder, you'll need to leave the clock-watchef mentality behind. It's career-limiting.

OMM 0000

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And overall, if she wants to climb the management ladder, you'll need to leave the clock-watchef mentality behind. It's career-limiting.

This is spot on.

The managers I know - the more senior they get, the more they work.

I know a woman who is one of the senior people in a bank, and she never stops working. Even on her holiday she works 12+ hours a day.

dashoonage

Its the accepted norm now at management level, I always get emails from my manager sent late at night or the weekends.

dashoonage

dashoonage wrote: »

Its the accepted norm now at management level, I always get emails from my manager sent late at night or the weekends.

I frequently get emails after midnight from my manager. I responded one night and she replied right away so I know it wasn't scheduled. Mad stuff.

OP, I would consider that to be unacceptable but then I've no interest in ever being in a job like that. Is it putting a toll on her and the relationship? Have to decide of it's worth the extra money, and what others deem acceptable isn't relevant to yourselves.

charlietheminxx

I disagree with some of the above - a middle management position is not worth compromising your work-life balance to such a significant extent. If you're running your own business and you're passionate about it, then working all the hours under the sun is different, but really constantly doing heaps of OT is not healthy for anyone. Does your wife have any hobbies? Is she maintaining her social life ok?

dashoonage

Deleted User wrote: »

I frequently get emails after midnight from my manager. I responded one night and she replied right away so I know it wasn't scheduled. Mad stuff.

OP, I would consider that to be unacceptable but then I've no interest in ever being in a job like that. Is it putting a toll on her and the relationship? Have to decide of it's worth the extra money, and what others deem acceptable isn't relevant to yourselves.

I used to reply. Then I stopped.....and guess what.....the world kept spinning.

OMM 0000

I think there's nothing wrong with working strange hours if you like your work and don't really consider it work.

But if you're having to work long hours due to politics or in an effort to protect yourself, well that's toxic.

dashoonage

dashoonage wrote: »

I used to reply. Then I stopped.....and guess what.....the world kept spinning.

I was actually drunk. I'd never usually reply. I only put effort like that into my business.

Wabbit Ears

ironically a lot of managers can be very good at managing other peoples time but absolutely suck at managing their own. There is a grace period of learning the ropes but if she doesn't manage her own time then her peers will start expecting her to always be available during these times.

dennyk

To me, "reasonable" overtime would mean occasional; if from time to time there's an unusually busy day/week or someone's off unexpectedly or there's some big event or short-term project going on that requires more work than usual, then it might be reasonable to ask for some extra time to be put in during those situations. If they're asking for a significant amount of extra time from her every day or every week for weeks or months at a time, that's no longer reasonable; it either means she's not managing her time properly or her job duties are too much workload for a single employee. I'm not a manager myself and have zero interest in ever being one, though, so take that for what it is.

One thing I will say is that if she doesn't start pushing back, she's going to find herself working these extra hours forever; the employer will never let up by their own choice (why would they, when they're getting extra work for nothing?), and the longer she works those extra hours, the worse it will look if she does push back in the future ("You've been doing all these tasks each week for months but now you say you don't have time to finish them? How can that possibly be? And why didn't you reply to that email I sent you at 9PM, when you always have before? This sort of reduction in performance is simply unacceptable...").

If she does want to push back, just be polite about it. If her boss assigns her too much work to complete within her normal contracted hours, she needs to speak up and say "Hey, boss, you said you need X, Y, and Z done this week, but I won't have time to complete all of them; which would you like me to prioritise?" If he says they all need to be done, she should be firm and reiterate that it simply won't be possible to do them all within her working hours. (This is assuming that it really is too much work, of course; if it's a matter of her taking longer than usual to complete these tasks because she's still new at the job and learning as she goes, that's another matter entirely...)

Wanderer2010

dashoonage wrote: »

I used to reply. Then I stopped.....and guess what.....the world kept spinning.

+1.

Every company in the world managed just fine before you and it will manage just fine without you. A big lesson to learn in the working world.

lapua20grain

I'm in a senior management position and do not work at home or outside work. Usually start at 7ish due to traffic and finish at 5 every day. I used to do a lot of hours like your partner but copped on that the company didn't expect it so I stopped and as another poster has said the world kept spinning. Your life is more important than that also remember that the company has to abide by the working time directive and new legislation and record all hours worked by their workforce or face stiff fines. There was a case last year with Kepak and one of their directors she brought them to court as they had an expectation that she work extended hours and she won her case. Tell your partner to delegate some of their work this should relieve some of the pressure.

ballyargus

The WRC would have have a view on this

Jupiter Mulligan

lapua20grain wrote: »

There was a case last year with Kepak and one of their directors she brought them to court as they had an expectation that she work extended hours and she won her case. Tell your partner to delegate some of their work this should relieve some of the pressure.

She wasn't a director and she sued after she had left the job, having worked there for less than 10 months.

The award of €7.5k was pretty small by Labour Courts standards.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/executive-awarded-7-500-for-having-to-deal-with-late-night-emails-1.3584537

Firefox11

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

+1.

Every company in the world managed just fine before you and it will manage just fine without you. A big lesson to learn in the working world.

It's only after you leave a job you realize how pointless or a waste of time half the projects or stuff you did in a job really was.

DeanAustin

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

+1.

Every company in the world managed just fine before you and it will manage just fine without you. A big lesson to learn in the working world.

Exactly. Most of what we do is completely trivial. Had a fellow manager today try and get me to keep two of my team back after they finish to correct something this evening (which wasn’t their mistake in the first place). She approached me at 4:30 and started pulling faces when I said it wasn’t getting done till the morning.

Guess what? Tomorrow will be grand and this time next week there will be another “crisis” to worry about.

I could work 24 hours a day and not get everything done. I’ll 100% do my best when I’m there and respond after hours if it’s needed to help a customer or to genuinely keep the actual business moving. All the other **** can wait.

ILoveYourVibes

Oh my gosh those are CRAZY hrs.

mistermaster

Thought I’d let this one run for a day or so to see people’s replies before coming back to it myself.

General view seems to be that what she’s doing is not “reasonable”.

Personally I think there are two factors involved, that are more down to herself than any expectation of her from her own managers.

One is that she’s probably not always the best at managing her own time and tasks. Even with things around home or getting ready for holidays, etc, many things are often left to the last minute and she often under-estimates the amount of time they’ll take too.

The other is that the people she’s supposed to be managing now are the people she was on the same level as before promotion. She’s been friendly with them for the past 4 or 5 years and I think she’s afraid they’ll start to dislike her ifshe becomes more like a “boss” by picking them up on things or assigning them extra work. A sort of “she’s gone too big for her boots” type of thing. So I think she might well be trying to do too much herself instead of delegating properly.

Anyway, whole thing is having an affect on thigns like dropping off and picking up the kids, and various household tasks, as well as how we used to have an hour or two together after kids went to bed but now she’s either checking emails or else going to bed earlier because she “has” to get up earlier. Wouldn't mind it for a short time but long term is a different story.

In fairness, she's only 6 months in:
a) she's probably still learning the finer parts of her job, including time management; and,
b) she's probably keen to start off on a high note and establish trust.

These things take extra time. It depends what kind of work she does, but personally it sounds like exactly the kind of thing I'd be doing 6 months into a new role. Putting extra time in, trying to make sure things get done right. It helps set the tone so that people know what to expect from her (something that's much more difficult to do a year down the road when everyone's already had their doubts about you).

Very few companies I know of actually train people properly for new roles. A lot of stuff is left to be figured out - best case scenario, a helpful colleague is around to answer questions. She's probably putting extra time in now because it'll get her to where she wants to be. Or maybe I'm projecting! But I'd leave her to it for the first 12 months anyway. If it's not worth it, she'll figure that out herself.

skallywag

I know quite a few people who do the same (and even to a greater extreme) so it is certainly not an unusual case.

That said, what I am missing from your posts is what she really thinks about all of this herself?

Quite a few people who I know who have been in a similar situation actually enjoyed the whole scene. I have been in the same situation myself before, and while I would not say that I myself enjoyed it, I took it as what was expected in order to get on and make progress in the direction that I wanted to go. I did harbour a certain amount or resentment from time to time that my employer may have been taking advantage of me, and the fact remains that I ended up putting in a lot of hours for which I was never compensated for.

That said, when I look back now on things, I realize that I would not be where I am today if I had not made these sacrifices at that time. These days I might work for 30 mins or so on emails each day from home, and I do not mind that as this is a reasonable expectation for the position in my opinion. I would not want to go back to working a lot of extensive regular overtime though. It can also be hard to get out of this cycle once it becomes established.

mvl

- Have to say in general I get annoyed stumbling upon partners that aren't supportive enough with their wife's career choices. She wants a career out of the home, then support her with it.

It takes effort to remain competitive in a job that matters, or to progress a career further.
And legally speaking I think in this country there is a maximum of hours - possibly 48 per week, but the average is calculated over few months, so fluctuations are allowed.

PS: When I do overtime, could add up 10-15 hours a week - I get paid for extra hours, while I am not recording every minute spent answering work queries, or the time spent for my own research in the evenings.
But in the company I work for, this is in a way the company culture: every individual with purpose, drive would be doing it when required. Dossers won't.

OMM 0000

mvl wrote: »

Have to say in general I get annoyed stumbling upon partners that aren't supportive enough with their wife's career choices. She wants a career out of the home, then support her with it.

This isn't about sexism. It's about people being worried their partner is bringing home their work every day. I think most people would agree it's OK if their partner has their own business and there will be a real pay off at the end, but doing it to make someone else rich? It makes no sense.

mvl

I didn't bring sexism into it, but I am a woman with a career that brings to this thread her experience.
IMO, if a mother is interested in a career path, then I think the husband should rather support her, or find out what arrangements he can make to support her better, instead of asking on boards if her overtime is normal.

She could have declined the promotion if this is not what she wanted for herself.



From this subject point of view, we don't know what's in her contract, if they talked about this before the promotion, or even how she communicates her needs ...

But the law allows workers to have up to a number of hours per week, and what she seems to be doing is within the accepted boundaries.

OMM 0000

OK, I can accept you weren't trying to bring sexism into it, but you are trying to bring gender into it. I don't think this is a gender issue at all.

I think we all agree partners need to support each other, but if you're consistently working an extra 12 hours a week, unpaid, for someone else, there's something wrong.

ongarboy

lapua20grain wrote: »

I'm in a senior management position and do not work at home or outside work. Usually start at 7ish due to traffic and finish at 5 every day. I used to do a lot of hours like your partner but copped on that the company didn't expect it so I stopped and as another poster has said the world kept spinning. Your life is more important than that also remember that the company has to abide by the working time directive and new legislation and record all hours worked by their workforce or face stiff fines. There was a case last year with Kepak and one of their directors she brought them to court as they had an expectation that she work extended hours and she won her case. Tell your partner to delegate some of their work this should relieve some of the pressure.

What's interesting is where you say you used to work like OP's partner but stopped. As someone else said, when climbing the management ladder, people will often put in those extra hours and go beyond the call of duty. Then when they've reached a senior level that they are satisfied with, they can pull back a little and focus more on work/life balance. A good senior manager will also (in most but not all cases) be great at proper delegation and will not micro manage - both attributes help maintaining that work/life balance.

I see it all the time in my workplace. The Senior Vice Presidents are always out the door at a reasonable time and you may get the odd out of hours email from them to check the status of a critical issue. Middle managers and even those below management are burning the candles at both end to get their tasks and duties over the line.

OP - you mention your wife can be quite poor at organizational skills even with things at home (holiday planning/household chores etc). Perhaps this manifests itself into her working style too which means she is taking on extra hours a better organised worker would not need to do. She needs to learn to be a good manager rather than a good peer with her former peers and delegate fairly and not be focused on popularity. They will respect her more if she is a good manager rather than a buddy they can take advantage of. Delegation, especially with former equals can be tricky at the start. Are there management courses (organization/delegation/people management/conflict resolution etc) she can take at work? Any decent large company is always promoting self improvement training courses for their staff so they should be able to facilitate her.

mvl

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think we all agree partners need to support each other, but if you're consistently working an extra 12 hours a week, unpaid, for someone else, there's something wrong.

But its not necessary wrong on the employer side, as we can't say that yet - so I think before making this type of statement, we need to know the contract details, company directives, role description, and so on.
- maybe some of it was covered in some of the earlier posts, but fearing we seem to want to rather go in a "Relationship advice" territory than talking about real work problems.

OMM 0000

I don't think there's anything wrong with a little bit of overtime every now and then. The issue I have is this is consistently 12 hours extra per week, including taking out the work laptop at home each evening. That's not right, regardless of what the contract, company directives and role description say. The OP has already told us this is all unpaid, and she's not on call or anything like that.

Again, I would have a completely different opinion on this if she owned the company.

mvl

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't think there's anything wrong with a little bit of overtime every now and then. The issue I have is this is consistently 12 hours extra per week, including taking out the work laptop at home each evening. That's not right, regardless of what the contract, company directives and role description say. The OP has already told us this is all unpaid, and she's not on call or anything like that.

OP told us she got a raise and updated contract. We don't know if the 12 hours work are consistent, as we're having second hand information. We can't even be sure if she has consented to this inquiry - this may not really be a work problem. But still, in here our focus should be on employment/legal rights.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Again, I would have a completely different opinion on this if she owned the company.

For me it won't matter who owns the company, while I've chosen a career with purpose for me.