What constitutes "reasonable" overtime?

OMM 0000

The OP has said the 12 hours are consistent. That's why he's complaining about it.

I'm of the opinion that family life is more important than working for someone else, so when you're taking the work laptop out each night, to work for free, that's a bad thing.

I'm happy you enjoy your job.

pwurple

There's give and take here.

I'd often have the laptop out in the evenings while the telly is on, and zip off a few emails, or chat to people in other time zones, to keep projects moving. Or when I get up in the morning, before I head to the office I take a quick check of the emails to see if there are any fires to put out. Likewise, I often leave work for a school play the kids are doing, or come in a bit late if I have some personal stuff to do... I don't clock in and out, so there's an overlap where either family or work is taking priority at various times.

Your wife will probably get to that after a while and learn to float the family life pieces into the day, and drop and pickup work as needed.

mvl

OMM 0000 wrote: »

The OP has said the 12 hours are consistent. That's why he's complaining about it.

And you assume this is 100% true ?
I think pwurple describes very well what can happen with the evening time when laptop is brought home. a spouse can't know with certainty what type of work is done on that laptop in the evening hours, even if they live together; nor can we.
- Now he may be off having disagreements with the wife based on what ppl from here are saying to him.
Look, don't get me wrong, I always appreciate your input on this forum.
but we're here giving personal advice to someone who doesn't really have a work problem himself, so we need to be cautious.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that family life is more important than working for someone else, so when you're taking the work laptop out each night, to work for free, that's a bad thing.

Family life is more important than any work, no matter who the employer is.

OMM 0000

I'm assuming what he's saying is true. But you're right, who knows.

mistermaster

I'm back here again.

Firstly, to both clarify and confirm, it's consistently between about 8 and 12 hours per week. She goes to work early every day, usually an hour early. She then stays roughly an extra half hour in the evening. If it's a day when she's only gone in 30 minutes early instead of 60, she might stay an extra hour in the evening "to make up for it". So between morning and evenings, that's up to 7.5 hours per week.

Then it's roughly 30 to 60 minutes minutes on the laptop each evening as well. So overall, average somewhere 8 to 12 hours per week.

I see somebody a few posts up tried to make this a gender issue. I think that's completely out of line. I'm not expecting her to be the dutiful little wife, having the house tidy and the dinner made when I get home from work myself every day. I wonder if this was the other way round, and a woman was on here looking for thoughts on a situation where her husband was suddenly doing an extra 8 to 12 hours per week, with no end in sight and all sorts of knock-on effects for the household, would that person have been as quick to say "a wife should support her husband in his career"?

Anyway, reason I opened this thread in the first place was to ask if people consider 8 to 12 hours per week to be "reasonable". Seems most people think it's not. And while some people say it's not unusual, that's not the same thing as saying it's "reasonable".

So thanks to all for the replies. Much appreciated.

BnB

pwurple wrote: »

There's give and take here.

I'd often have the laptop out in the evenings while the telly is on, and zip off a few emails, or chat to people in other time zones, to keep projects moving. Or when I get up in the morning, before I head to the office I take a quick check of the emails to see if there are any fires to put out. Likewise, I often leave work for a school play the kids are doing, or come in a bit late if I have some personal stuff to do... I don't clock in and out, so there's an overlap where either family or work is taking priority at various times.

Your wife will probably get to that after a while and learn to float the family life pieces into the day, and drop and pickup work as needed.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Getting into the habit of doing 10+ hours a day as your normal day is just wrong and will not get you anywhere.

Do your normal hours day to day... and on the day when the pressure is on for something.... be prepared to put your shoulder to the wheeland put in the hours. Likewise, if you're doing this, the day you have to leave early of head out for an hour or two, it should not be an issue.

On the OP's case.... One thing that often happens when people are promoted is that they don't quite fully leave their old job. So they end up doing the new job, but still end up as the go to person for a lot of their old responsibilities too.

If that is the case (and it is a bit of a random guess) then the only answer is for your OP to put her foot down and start saying No. People will keep asking until she does - and when she does, they'll eventually figure it out themselves.

skallywag

mvl wrote: »

- Have to say in general I get annoyed stumbling upon partners that aren't supportive enough with their wife's career choices. She wants a career out of the home, then support her with it.

Have been away for the week and had not my eye on this thread.

Where are you seeing in any of the OP's messages that he is not being supportive of his wife?

My reading of it is that he is frustrated at the extra effort she needs to make which is not being compensated in any immediate way, and I interpret it as more of a concern for her own well being and appreciation rather than a slur on her.

I'm genuinely quite amazed that you could put that slant on it.

mvl

skallywag wrote: »

Where are you seeing in any of the OP's messages that he is not being supportive of his wife?

So you are not reading same posts as I am ?
1. OP told us from the beginning <I can understand her up to a point but I don’t think what she’s doing is “reasonable” and I’d also wonder if doing all that now means she’ll be doing it forever, even after her probation.>


2. OP does not seem to trust spouse's judgement about their partner's work ethic <I also ask her to think about how she's basically doing an extra day a week (or more) for no extra pay. If they said to her that she had to stick to regular office hours Monday to Friday but then go in every Saturday too, for no extra pay, she'd say "no way". But she does it this way instead.>


3. Another observation is that OP seems to be constantly monitoring how much time their partner spends on work matters. What info we are missing until now is how long does their partner spend on lunch breaks, tea breaks ... to have the full picture.


I will stop here: OP doesn't have a work problem, while their partner might have some sort of a different challenge. But I am sure someone who's been promoted to middle management can be trusted with their own decisions on work/finances matters.

As this is my last post on this thread, note that more information about what is reasonable in matters of overtime (as it is accepted by Irish law) and/or overtime pay arrangements can be found on citizensinformation.ie. My summary is: it is OK to have up to 48h work weeks averaged in 4 months, and the employer is not mandated to pay the overtime.

Enter name here

Your wife is on a salary and paid as such to perform a middle management role.

Managers normally work anywhere up to 60+ hours in the real world outside of Ireland.

If she or you don't want the extra hours then go back to an hourly pay rate and obviously a lot less in wages.

Both my wife and I are in senior global roles and regularly work 60 to 80 hrs per week as well as being away from home 20 to 25 weeks per year on business.

For those saying its absurd are normally the same people in the same role for 20 years and the first to complain about how much senior people get paid and how they are always overlooked when promotions are available.

lawred2

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is spot on.

The managers I know - the more senior they get, the more they work.

I know a woman who is one of the senior people in a bank, and she never stops working. Even on her holiday she works 12+ hours a day.

It is not at all spot on. It's middle management. An extra 15/20 hours a week is completely unreasonable and unhealthy.

lawred2

Enter name here wrote: »

Your wife is on a salary and paid as such to perform a middle management role.

Managers normally work anywhere up to 60+ hours in the real world outside of Ireland.

If she or you don't want the extra hours then go back to an hourly pay rate and obviously a lot less in wages.

Both my wife and I are in senior global roles and regularly work 60 to 80 hrs per week as well as being away from home 20 to 25 weeks per year on business.

For those saying its absurd are normally the same people in the same role for 20 years and the first to complain about how much senior people get paid and how they are always overlooked when promotions are available.

"The real world"

Where's this exactly?

Enter name here

lawred2 wrote: »

"The real world"

Where's this exactly?

As I said anywhere outside Ireland. Would you like a link to a global map?

lawred2

Enter name here wrote: »

As I said anywhere outside Ireland. Would you like a link to a global map?

Sure. Once you finish up your overtime in your global role in the real world, you can drop me a link.

Enter name here

lawred2 wrote: »

Sure. Once you finish up your overtime in your global role in the real world, you can drop me a link.

Too funny, actually sitting back with a nice glass of red and the laptop laughing my ass off reading the comments here. But i'll be in bed shortly then up at 5 into the office by 630 and leave around 630 also, then ill spend an hr or two going over emails. Read boards for an hr or so and then repeat.

D9Male

Enter name here wrote: »

Your wife is on a salary and paid as such to perform a middle management role.

Managers normally work anywhere up to 60+ hours in the real world outside of Ireland.

If she or you don't want the extra hours then go back to an hourly pay rate and obviously a lot less in wages.

Both my wife and I are in senior global roles and regularly work 60 to 80 hrs per week as well as being away from home 20 to 25 weeks per year on business.

For those saying its absurd are normally the same people in the same role for 20 years and the first to complain about how much senior people get paid and how they are always overlooked when promotions are available.

This is one of the most depressing posts I have read. Senior global roles? Wow.

seannash

mistermaster wrote: »

Anyway, reason I opened this thread in the first place was to ask if people consider 8 to 12 hours per week to be "reasonable". Seems most people think it's not. And while some people say it's not unusual, that's not the same thing as saying it's "reasonable".

So thanks to all for the replies. Much appreciated.

Gotta say that's not my take on the responses. You have a good few people who have been in your wife's position who say it's reasonable.
When you move into management you do so with the understanding that you will be doing longer hours than your former colleagues. Yes it might settle down but what if your wife continues to get promotions and has to manage projects, travel, meet clients etc.
I am terribly disorganized and to make up for it I do overtime. I accept this is part of my personality but I have accepted a plan to combat it. It allows me to be relaxed in work and do spurts of work Instead of being flat out for 7 hours every day.
Is your wife like this?
Also, does she see a problem. If she doesn't and doesn't feel like she's taking advantage of then leave her to it.
Sometimes in a busy office the quietest time and best time to work is when nobody is around so where as you see her going in early as extra work maybe it's just her way of getting work that requires concentration done.

c.p.w.g.w

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is spot on.

The managers I know - the more senior they get, the more they work.

I know a woman who is one of the senior people in a bank, and she never stops working. Even on her holiday she works 12+ hours a day.

That is genuinely depressing

Masala

Can she work from home on dialling in?????? I do it every so often and get a **** load of work done in one 8 hours. Let's me catch up without being disturbed etc.....

Sets me up nicely for a few weeks til I get behind again and then I take off for another Work From Home day and catch up again!!

Mrs OBumble

Enter name here wrote: »

As I said anywhere outside Ireland. Would you like a link to a global map?

A good few places in Ireland too.

The issue here is a world view disconnect between clock-watchers, who are pretty much going to stay as low to middling paid wage workers, and people with higher ambitions.

Neither side is id right or wrong, they're just different value systems.

dashoonage

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A good few places in Ireland too.

The issue here is a world view disconnect between clock-watchers, who are pretty much going to stay as low to middling paid wage workers, and people with higher ambitions.

Neither side is id right or wrong, they're just different value systems.

Nail. head. hammer

nothing wrong with either approach, its your own life live it as you please.

meeeeh

I don't like this thread at all. It seems to me like it was started by someone who wants to pressurize their partner into different work pattern. Short answer no I don't think it's unreasonable if you are paid well and your position is senior enough. It also depends if she is still learning or has other ambitions. But what is more important there was absolutely no indication weather the wife is happy to work those hours or stressed out because of the work. We know op is not happy but it's not him working those hours. And if it affects their relationship then it should be in personal issues not work issues.

skallywag

meeeeh wrote: »

...But what is more important there was absolutely no indication weather the wife is happy to work those hours or stressed out because of the work...

Agree strongly with this, and I brought it up in a previous post albeit with no response from the OP.

If she is happy to work the OT then I see no issue at all here, and as mentioned I have seen plenty of people who have been more than happy to work OT as they progress in their career.

mistermaster

Sorry. Didn't actually realise this thread was still going or that somebody was expecting a response from me.

My wife is not particularly happy with all these extra hours either. Like me, she thought "reasonable" overtime might mean an extra few hours once every so often, not an extra hour or two every single day. I’ve been in management myself for almost 10 years now and was never caught for that much overtime myself, even just after I was first promoted. Guess we both thought/hoped expected it would be the same for her too.

Current situation affects all sorts of things. One simple example (because today is Wednesday) is how we used to go together to bring our boys (aged 5 and 7) to GAA training at 6 pm on Wednesday evenings, but now she misses that most weeks because of work. She’s going to miss it this evening.

She doesn’t want to say anything about it in work though because she’s not sure whether or not these sort of hours are “normal” or “reasonable” or whatever word you want to use. She says she can’t really compare herself to anybody else there because she’s the only one at this particular level in her own department. Others are either more senior or more junior.

So, just trying to get some measure of whether this is “reasonable” or “normal” was the reason for opening up this thread in the first place. It’s not an attempt to pressure her or control her or get ammo for some domestic argument or anything else.

seannash

mistermaster wrote: »

Sorry. Didn't actually realise this thread was still going or that somebody was expecting a response from me.

My wife is not particularly happy with all these extra hours either. Like me, she thought "reasonable" overtime might mean an extra few hours once every so often, not an extra hour or two every single day. I’ve been in management myself for almost 10 years now and was never caught for that much overtime myself, even just after I was first promoted. Guess we both thought/hoped expected it would be the same for her too.

Current situation affects all sorts of things. One simple example (because today is Wednesday) is how we used to go together to bring our boys (aged 5 and 7) to GAA training at 6 pm on Wednesday evenings, but now she misses that most weeks because of work. She’s going to miss it this evening.

She doesn’t want to say anything about it in work though because she’s not sure whether or not these sort of hours are “normal” or “reasonable” or whatever word you want to use. She says she can’t really compare herself to anybody else there because she’s the only one at this particular level in her own department. Others are either more senior or more junior.

So, just trying to get some measure of whether this is “reasonable” or “normal” was the reason for opening up this thread in the first place. It’s not an attempt to pressure her or control her or get ammo for some domestic argument or anything else.

I think most are saying it's reasonable and a lot are saying it's totally normal.
Maybe your partner isn't suited to the role. (Which is totally okay)

meeeeh

We have our own company, we were never able to drop kids to activities together. It's just doesn't happen, that being said we know why OH works extra hours and he can cut them if needed. My personal belief is that you really have to be well paid for extra hours to make it worth but also if you need them just to cope with all the standard jobs on the list then the workload is probably too high.

mistermaster

Maybe I should have just started this thread in a completely different way.

Could have just asked "how many hours a week, on average, do people consider reasonable for unpaid overtime in a middle management role?"

Then again, the answers probably would just have been "it depends".

Diziet

Whether reasonable or not, the employee also has choices - if you have other commitments, it is perfectly ok to say 'I am not available'. Work expands to take up the time we have (at any level).

D9Male

seannash wrote: »

I think most are saying it's reasonable and a lot are saying it's totally normal.
Maybe your partner isn't suited to the role. (Which is totally okay)

I don't think it is reasonable. And I think this pressure is becoming normalised more and more in this country. It is depressing how people boast about how busy they are.

FKYouPayMe

Enter name here wrote: »

Too funny, actually sitting back with a nice glass of red and the laptop laughing my ass off reading the comments here. But i'll be in bed shortly then up at 5 into the office by 630 and leave around 630 also, then ill spend an hr or two going over emails. Read boards for an hr or so and then repeat.

Grim.

seannash

D9Male wrote: »

I don't think it is reasonable. And I think this pressure is becoming normalised more and more in this country. It is depressing how people boast about how busy they are.

I'm not trying to sound patronising but have you been in a management role or is this your feeling coming from a different line of work