Appealing Bank Decision on Fraud

Daveone

Hi Everyone

Hoping someone can help me with a big of advice/guidance. I was recently victim of a robbery where a **** managed to get my debit card and pin code without me being aware and withdrew well over €1200 from my account. Once I noticed, the next morning that my card was gone, I checked online banking and saw the money gone out of my account.

I cancelled the card, reported to the gards, and made a claim with Bank of Ireland. I soon found out that they had attempted 23 transactions worth a total of 5K. The bank would not tell me why they were unsuccessful in the majority of their transactions.

Bank of Ireland ruled that the person used chip and pin transaction so essentially this is not their problem and they will not refund me any losses.

I am trying to deal with BOI customer service (a special kind of painful) and appeal this decision based on
This kind of behaviour is totally not reflected in my bank of Ireland user behaviour. I have probably never taken out 1000 euro in cash in a month, let alone in the middle of the night.
If the person failed on the majority of the transactions why did BOI not try to contact me to confirm my identity. I have 2 factor identification set up
From any CCTV or ATM machine cameras, it would be clear that it is not me using the card

Has anyone here had any experience along these lines, or even appealing a Banks decision on fraud?

Many thanks for any responses

D

harr

Daveone wrote: »

Hi Everyone

Hoping someone can help me with a big of advice/guidance. I was recently victim of a robbery where a **** managed to get my debit card and pin code without me being aware and withdrew well over €1200 from my account. Once I noticed, the next morning that my card was gone, I checked online banking and saw the money gone out of my account.

I cancelled the card, reported to the gards, and made a claim with Bank of Ireland. I soon found out that they had attempted 23 transactions worth a total of 5K. The bank would not tell me why they were unsuccessful in the majority of their transactions.

Bank of Ireland ruled that the person used chip and pin transaction so essentially this is not their problem and they will not refund me any losses.

I am trying to deal with BOI customer service (a special kind of painful) and appeal this decision based on
This kind of behaviour is totally not reflected in my bank of Ireland user behaviour. I have probably never taken out 1000 euro in cash in a month, let alone in the middle of the night.
If the person failed on the majority of the transactions why did BOI not try to contact me to confirm my identity. I have 2 factor identification set up
From any CCTV or ATM machine cameras, it would be clear that it is not me using the card

Has anyone here had any experience along these lines, or even appealing a Banks decision on fraud?

Many thanks for any responses

D

Not saying this is the case but how do the bank know you didn’t give your card and pin to someone else to withdraw the money and then you make the claim.
I was always under the impression that once someone has access to your pin the bank won’t refund. Yes it’s a criminal offence and the guards will have to deal with it and then you can Chase the person responsible for your money.

Daveone

That's a fair question, I guess my answer is that I have no history of anything like that, and they could have flagged it by trying to contact me.

My understanding is that the bank monitors all transaction via some automated platform which should flag if something is way outside of a customers usual behavior. If i was the kind who regularly took out large sums of cash, then I would understand but I am not. To be honest, I doubt I have used my card to make transactions 23 times a month, let alone between 2.30 and 9.30am on a sunday morning

Miaireland

How did they get your pin number? I can understand if someone stole your card but not sure how they could get the pin unless you had it written on your card or told someone the PIN.

Jim2007

Sorry to hear about your situation, but...

You are responsible for ensuring that your card and pin are kept separately and that they do not fall into other people's hands..... since the money was obtained using the physical card and pin, it is your problem.

I'm not even sure to whom you could appeal. Ombudsman or a court case... I'd expect that both would throw it out on the bases that you failed to meet the terms on your contract and can't blame the other party for your negligence.

Daveone

Mr.S wrote: »

How did they get your pin code during a robbery, without you being aware?

Make an appointment with your branch manager and discuss it in person, the fact they blocked 23 other transactions on the same night should make it obvious that the other transactions(s) where fraudulent.

Quite honestly I dont know. I was out with friends, and was quite drunk. My best guess is someone saw me type it in to a card machine and targeted me from there

RossieMan

As above, something doesn't add up. How did they get your pin from having the card? If you've the pin written anywhere you're **** out of luck.

Sounds to be like you might have it wrote on your wallet or on the card. They didn't just guess your pin number.

Your transaction history is not important if you're at fault for losing your card and pin.

Jim2007

Daveone wrote: »

That's a fair question, I guess my answer is that I have no history of anything like that, and they could have flagged it by trying to contact me.

My understanding is that the bank monitors all transaction via some automated platform which should flag if something is way outside of a customers usual behavior. If i was the kind who regularly took out large sums of cash, then I would understand but I am not. To be honest, I doubt I have used my card to make transactions 23 times a month, let alone between 2.30 and 9.30am on a sunday morning

Total nonsense! There is no obligation on the bank to do so, nor do they have the ability to do so! They might be able to do something on their own ATMs but that is it.

Credit cards are a different thing.

Jim2007

Daveone wrote: »

Quite honestly I dont know. I was out with friends, and was quite drunk. My best guess is someone saw me type it in to a card machine and targeted me from there

You are going to have to come up with a far better story than that if you want to be taken seriously.

holliehobbie

Thought the maximum withdrawal per day was €600? And you said they withdrew well over €1200 over 7 hours in the same day? How is that even possible?

NIMAN

To be fair to BoI, I was victim of online fraud in the middle of the night and they spotted it and emailed me straight away.

They investigated and correctly refunded me the money without too much hassle.

But in my case, there was no PIN involved, so thats probably why mine went so smoothly.

Del2005

holliehobbie wrote: »

Thought the maximum withdrawal per day was €600? And you said they withdrew well over €1200 over 7 hours in the same day? How is that even possible?

It could have been from 23:00 to 06:00, 2 days, the OP noticed the next morning.

gwalk

Del2005 wrote: »

It could have been from 23:00 to 06:00, 2 days, the OP noticed the next morning.

but the op says between 2.30 and 9.30am on a Sunday morning :rolleyes:

listermint

Mr.S wrote: »

So are people saying that if your pin is compromised, the banks don't refund fraudulent payments?

What happens if your card is skimmed at an ATM and the scammers watch you (either in person // camera) enter your pin? Which seems to be fairly common, I thought in these cases the bank always paid out?

They investigate that and if there is a number of similar issues with that machine then yes it's immediately refunded.

Not too hard to investigate those.

Not to hard to investigate multiple skimming at single retail locations either.

adgib

You can get the amount allowed to withdraw up to €1300 per day

Daveone

holliehobbie wrote: »

Thought the maximum withdrawal per day was €600? And you said they withdrew well over €1200 over 7 hours in the same day? How is that even possible?

Maximum withdrawal of 500 in one go I think. Thats what the first withdrawal was (at an AIB ATM), and then 2 more of 200 at different ATMs and then some smaller charges.

They tried to withdraw a lot more, but it was blocked. Bank wont tell me why it was blocked. I find it very unlikely that they forgot the pin after knowing it (I am genuinely guessing how my pin was skimmed, it was not guessed - or if it was I am the unluckiest SOB going).

So my argument in short is that if the card was blocked from taking out extra cash after the first 500, it should not have been reactivated without my approval.

Toots

Daveone wrote: »

Quite honestly I dont know. I was out with friends, and was quite drunk. My best guess is someone saw me type it in to a card machine and targeted me from there

Unfortunately you have an obligation to protect your pin, and if you were out and drunk and someone saw you type it in, then then bank won't refund you. You should always cover your hand when entering your pin, and basically as far as the bank are concerned, if someone was able to see what numbers you punched in simply by standing beside you, then they consider that you disclosed it. There's actually a name for that sort of theft - it's called shoulder surfing.

It's rotten luck, but when I worked in the bank, I saw a couple of cases of this and none of them were successful in getting a refund. With that being said, I'd absolutely pursue it as far as you can - official complaint first, and then if you're not happy with the response you can complain to the ombudsman. You've got nothing to lose by trying.

duffman13

Daveone wrote: »

Maximum withdrawal of 500 in one go I think. Thats what the first withdrawal was (at an AIB ATM), and then 2 more of 200 at different ATMs and then some smaller charges.

They tried to withdraw a lot more, but it was blocked. Bank wont tell me why it was blocked. I find it very unlikely that they forgot the pin after knowing it (I am genuinely guessing how my pin was skimmed, it was not guessed - or if it was I am the unluckiest SOB going).

So my argument in short is that if the card was blocked from taking out extra cash after the first 500, it should not have been reactivated without my approval.

If your card was skimmed, you'd have gotten a refund, it's a simple process to investigate and they would have multiple reports.

Your card was taken and the person has access to the pin. That's your fault entirely whether someone was over your shoulder or you had a post it with it on the card, the bank don't know.

There isn't someone watching every card transaction, there is a simple electronic process to detect fraud on chip and pin, one of them is a high number of cash withdrawals in a short period but generally speaking it would be between 3 to 5 transactions unless carried out in an another country you don't normally frequent. The bank took action as they deemed the activity suspicious, you lost a large sum as a result of the person having your card and pin. It could have been worse if the bank hadn't acted but they aren't at fault for your loss

beauf

Daveone wrote: »

Maximum withdrawal of 500 in one go I think. Thats what the first withdrawal was (at an AIB ATM), and then 2 more of 200 at different ATMs and then some smaller charges.

They tried to withdraw a lot more, but it was blocked. Bank wont tell me why it was blocked. I find it very unlikely that they forgot the pin after knowing it (I am genuinely guessing how my pin was skimmed, it was not guessed - or if it was I am the unluckiest SOB going).

So my argument in short is that if the card was blocked from taking out extra cash after the first 500, it should not have been reactivated without my approval.

I don't follow. They took some out. Then it was blocked, then unblocked and more was taken out then it was blocked again?

Jim2007

Mr.S wrote: »

So are people saying that if your pin is compromised, the banks don't refund fraudulent payments?

That is not what we have here. The OP seems to have had is physical card and PIN magiced away from him. The correct card and PIN was used to take money out of ATMs. The banks will not pay out in such a case, as it is a blatant breach of your contract with them.

Mr.S wrote: »

What happens if your card is skimmed at an ATM and the scammers watch you (either in person // camera) enter your pin? Which seems to be fairly common, I thought in these cases the bank always paid out?

This is a different situation, here you still are in possession of the physical card and the bank paid out on a dummy card. They will not admit for legal reasons, but basically they broke the contract by paying out to someone who did not have your physical card.

The J Stands for Jay

Toots wrote: »

Unfortunately you have an obligation to protect your pin, and if you were out and drunk and someone saw you type it in, then then bank won't refund you. You should always cover your hand when entering your pin, and basically as far as the bank are concerned, if someone was able to see what numbers you punched in simply by standing beside you, then they consider that you disclosed it. There's actually a name for that sort of theft - it's called shoulder surfing.

It's rotten luck, but when I worked in the bank, I saw a couple of cases of this and none of them were successful in getting a refund. With that being said, I'd absolutely pursue it as far as you can - official complaint first, and then if you're not happy with the response you can complain to the ombudsman. You've got nothing to lose by trying.

I had this happen to me ages ago. Ulster Bank had no issue refunding me. Possibly because it looked like it was the bar staff that did it...

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are going to have to come up with a far better story than that if you want to be taken seriously.

Why would you not believe the story? This exact situation happened me years ago. Had my wallet stolen on a night out while drunk and account cleaned out from atms in close proximity to the pub I’d been drinking in. I had been buying drinks with card all evening so obviously someone got my pin over my shoulder (or the bar staff) and then stole the wallet.

All money was refunded without issue.

Doop

Daveone wrote: »

That's a fair question, I guess my answer is that I have no history of anything like that, and they could have flagged it by trying to contact me.

My understanding is that the bank monitors all transaction via some automated platform which should flag if something is way outside of a customers usual behavior. If i was the kind who regularly took out large sums of cash, then I would understand but I am not. To be honest, I doubt I have used my card to make transactions 23 times a month, let alone between 2.30 and 9.30am on a sunday morning

The bank do monitor transactions which automatically flag up on a system for review by a person.... however... the rules that cause a transaction to flag are not person specific...ie a transaction does not flag up because it is out of the norm for you.... it flags up if it is inline with parameters set for fraudulent activity. ie western union ... or a transaction in dublin and one in the us 30 mins later... etc

Jim2007

Morgan Incalculable Balm wrote: »

Why would you not believe the story?

Because I have been told far to many of these stores... over the years.

Morgan Incalculable Balm wrote: »

This exact situation happened me years ago. Had my wallet stolen on a night out while drunk

Except the OP did not have his wallet stolen...