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jayo26

All time English league draft

gimli2112 wrote: »

I'd like to think prejudices can be put aside when the voting begins but I don't think I'll be able to.

Same here but we see how it runs.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Was surprised Clichy last this long, better than a few of the other LBs picked recently kmo

IncognitoMan

Current Premier League Draft

gimli2112 wrote: »

I'd like to think prejudices can be put aside when the voting begins but I don't think I'll be able to.

Prejudice against players or posters?

Morzadec

All time English league draft

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

Was surprised Clichy last this long, better than a few of the other LBs picked recently kmo

I was going to take him last round because I really want that pacey full back style. But felt Cech was really good value, so glad he made it back round.

He was pure class for a couple of years at Arsenal and decent for City too

Liam O

All time English league draft

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Prejudice against players or posters?

Votes should only count when there's a reason given in a post in the voting thread for why they are picking one team over the other. Might not stop everything but it's the best way of doing it.

gimli2112

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Prejudice against players or posters?

players more so. a lot of it is opinions and y'er more inclined to look favourably on players from your team.I guess it could be posters but now all the Utd lads changed their name I don't know who anyone is anymore
Ah no it should be fun and I'll be happy someone wins the €50K prize

Thats a super pick my Slic this late in the game

martyos121

All time European cup competitions draft

Was waiting for Joe Cole to be picked, even though he had only a few years at his peak due to injuries, he was superb in that time.

Not sure about the Alonso pick, bit of a defensive liability in a back four but his attacking output is great tbf.

Trigger

All time English league draft

Pearce is a great pick IMO, I had toyed with the idea myself but thought against it. I was thinking of him as a LB choice though.. didnt he play the majority of his games out there?

SlickRic

Trigger wrote: »

Pearce is a great pick IMO, I had toyed with the idea myself but thought against it. I was thinking of him as a LB choice though.. didnt he play the majority of his games out there?

That's where I have him playing.

Trigger

All time English league draft

SlickRic wrote: »

That's where I have him playing.

Ah right, for some reason thought you had already selected a left full.. great pick so. Especially in Round 10

Lucas Hood

Current Premier League Draft

I debated Pearce myself but his best form was before the premier league.

5 times on pfa team of year all before the pl started.

SlickRic

Lucas Hood wrote: »

I debated Pearce myself but his best form was before the premier league.

5 times on pfa team of year all before the pl started.

He was at his peak just before the PL, but peak Pearce goes in round 4 or 5.

This Pearce was still starting for England in Euro 96, and helped get Forest into 3rd place the season after being promoted a season or 2 previously.

Just because he wasn't at his absolute best, doesn't mean he wasn't still very good.

jayo26

All time English league draft

The closest Oliver Dacourt got to Roy keanes mould is having the same number of limbs :P :P

Morzadec

All time English league draft

jayo26 wrote: »

The closest Oliver Dacourt got to Roy keanes mould is having the same number of limbs :P :P

Similar style i mean! Tough tackler (maybe too tough at times) but not a "sitter" or purely a destroyer. Just in case someone thinks I've chosen two sitting defensive mids!

IncognitoMan

Current Premier League Draft

I completely missed Dacourt when looking at players. Nice pick.

SlickRic

i was wondering if someone would go for TAA.

sensational talent (and I'm biased), but I personally couldn't justify putting him in. i understand getting him now that things might be getting thin on the ground in some departments.

IncognitoMan

Current Premier League Draft

I definitely thought about getting him but feared it would be a bit too much to carry with the questions going to be asked of Ozil already no doubt.

In 4 or 5 years time Trent will be a round 2 pick at worst I'd imagine.

Donnielighto

I still want to know bucketys player, I have an idea but if I'm right hes wrong on a small detail.

Iused2likebusts

Like the Nigel Martyn pick he was a very good keeper for a number of years. Alonso on the other hand I think is a dreadful defender would have to be playing a back 3 with him at wing back as he is a liability in a back 4.

Morzadec

All time English league draft

I can understand the comments about Fabinho not being proven enough yet perhaps, but I do think it's a bit unfair if people are going to be voting down the likes of Robbo or TAA on a similar basis. The rules of the draft said "peak". It was a big reason I went for Suarez on first pick.

TAA has played 55 PL games, made two CL finals in that time, and found his way into a PFA Team of the Year. I think that's enough to judge him on and at this stage he's a very good right-back to pick up.

For context, Dacourt who I picked yesterday only had 57 at Leeds (30 before that at Everton, but it was his Leeds peak that I was choosing him for), and no one really mentioned anything.

I'll be voting on teams based on the peak of the player, as instructed in the OP.

martyos121

All time European cup competitions draft

I bloody knew you’d get Ederson before me Trigger, I noticed you hadn’t gone for a keeper and feared the worst.

Happy to get an experienced keeper in Reina at the end of the day, but I really regret not taking Ederson in the last round. If you take longevity out of it, he’s clearly one of the top 5 keepers to ever play in the league.

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

When you look at Rafeal de Silva who played in the premier league for 5 or 6 seasons yet was a bit part player for the majority of that time only making a handful of appearances each season apart from one.

That one season he made 28 premier league appearances and this will be considered his peak form.

It will be interesting to see how he is viewed compared to fabinho and taa.

There is also a quality player who was instrumental in a league title win yet has less than 30 premier league appearances who i think would also be viewed favourably as the perception might be that they did it over longer

SlickRic

Morzadec wrote: »

I can understand the comments about Fabinho not being proven enough yet perhaps, but I do think it's a bit unfair if people are going to be voting down the likes of Robbo or TAA on a similar basis. The rules of the draft said "peak". It was a big reason I went for Suarez on first pick.

TAA has played 55 PL games, made two CL finals in that time, and found his way into a PFA Team of the Year. I think that's enough to judge him on and at this stage he's a very good right-back to pick up.

For context, Dacourt who I picked yesterday only had 57 at Leeds (30 before that at Everton, but it was his Leeds peak that I was choosing him for), and no one really mentioned anything.

I'll be voting on teams based on the peak of the player, as instructed in the OP.

hold on, i'm not going to vote them down.

but longevity does have some role, surely? I'm just not going to say TAA is a close-to-perfect RB because of one season where he was on a team that got 97 points and won a CL.

going purely on 'peak' is too vague. we're saying Fabinho is understandable in terms of not being in the League long, but why? if longevity or the amount of time doing well means absolutely nothing, then someone may as well have picked Michael Ricketts and ferociously defended his half a season scoring 13 goals, and said 'well, that's the Michael Ricketts I have'.

a player's longevity informs their quality somewhat.

Liam O

All time English league draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

When you look at Rafeal de Silva who played in the premier league for 5 or 6 seasons yet was a bit part player for the majority of that time only making a handful of appearances each season apart from one.

That one season he made 28 premier league appearances and this will be considered his peak form.

It will be interesting to see how he is viewed compared to fabinho and taa.

There is also a quality player who was instrumental in a league title win yet has less than 30 premier league appearances who i think would also be viewed favourably as the perception might be that they did it over longer

Difference between bit part and rotation tbh. He will be viewed by what he showed in his time in the league.

I know who you are probably talking about in that less than 30 and yes he'd probably be viewed better than Fabinho. He was good enough for the whole season and there were no questions of his ability. Wouldn't have been left out for big games anyway.

SlickRic

martyos121 wrote: »

Happy to get an experienced keeper in Reina at the end of the day, but I really regret not taking Ederson in the last round. If you take longevity out of it, he’s clearly one of the top 5 keepers to ever play in the league.

goalkeeper is a perfect position to illustrate the longevity argument.

Schmeichel is lauded as the best goalie ever - partly due to the fact he did it for so damn long. Ederson has been superb for 2 seasons - it could be easily argued that 2017/18 in particular he was as good as any single Schmeichel season.

does that mean I consider Ederson as an equal or better than Schmeichel for the purpose of this draft?

this is a genuine question.

martyos121

All time European cup competitions draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

When you look at Rafeal de Silva who played in the premier league for 5 or 6 seasons yet was a bit part player for the majority of that time only making a handful of appearances each season apart from one.

That one season he made 28 premier league appearances and this will be considered his peak form.

It will be interesting to see how he is viewed compared to fabinho and taa.

There is also a quality player who was instrumental in a league title win yet has less than 30 premier league appearances who i think would also be viewed favourably as the perception might be that they did it over longer

Everyone will probably have their own criteria, but for me, I’ll look more favourably upon one outstanding season rather than 10 decent ones, but only if that one season was truly at world class level. As Morzadec said, the OP states that players will be judged on peak form, so it makes little sense to me to write some quality players off due to a lack of appearances. Inconsistent players are another story, someone who can’t string four or five good performances together would go down in my estimation. Tactics and playing to the strengths of your picks would be paramount to me, and I’d vote accordingly.

I suppose when you take into account all the different scoring criteria from posters, it should all balance out in the end and there’ll be a worthy winner.

Liam O

All time English league draft

SlickRic wrote: »

goalkeeper is a perfect position to illustrate the longevity argument.

Schmeichel is lauded as the best goalie ever - partly due to the fact he did it for so damn long. Ederson has been superb for 2 seasons - it could be easily argued that 2017/18 in particular he was as good as any single Schmeichel season.

does that mean I consider Ederson as an equal or better than Schmeichel for the purpose of this draft?

this is a genuine question.

I think that I would reserve it as a tie breaker. You say as good as any season Schmeichal had (unsure I'd agree but let's say it was), I would use longevity to judge the better player overall I think.

martyos121

All time European cup competitions draft

SlickRic wrote: »

goalkeeper is a perfect position to illustrate the longevity argument.

Schmeichel is lauded as the best goalie ever - partly due to the fact he did it for so damn long. Ederson has been superb for 2 seasons - it could be easily argued that 2017/18 in particular he was as good as any single Schmeichel season.

does that mean I consider Ederson as an equal or better than Schmeichel for the purpose of this draft?

this is a genuine question.

Missed this post before I submitted the last one.

I think it’s simply a matter of opinion Ric. As I said just there, different posters will value different things, I’ve made my priorities clear and others will differ from that. It makes the draft a lot more interesting too when it’s open to interpretation like this as there were no real scoring guidelines set out from the start. If there were specific judging criteria like you’d see in gymnastics or diving, it’d all be very systematic and you’d have a sense of the winner could be before any matchups are drawn up.

The one thing that’s absolutely crucial in the voting process is that posters should have to give reasons for their vote. It mostly eliminates bias and it gives an indication of what people consider the most important factors in what determines the best team.

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

I think the Giggs v Bale is the perfect example of longevity v peak ability

duffman13

Current Premier League Draft

Personally and this is just my thoughts on it, longevity and consistent high standard performances get my vote. Players with 3 or 4 seasons at a high level minimum is my thought process. So many examples of young players starting brightly and looking like one of the best players in a certain position and disappearing into mediocrity after a couple of seasons.

Trigger

All time English league draft

I think a full season is enough to show peak, which is what we had agreed on. Nigel Martyn for example was a very decent keeper for 4/5 years, probably longer. Would I rate Ederson (in 2 years) as a better player in the PL? Without a doubt. Longevity would only come into it in my opinion if the players peak performances were equal.

By the way, Schmeichal was head and shoulders ahead of anyone else performance wise.

Trigger

All time English league draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think the Giggs v Bale is the perfect example of longevity v peak ability

Well not really, Giggs at his peak on the left was as good as anything Bale did on the left during his time at Spurs. I do think that would come down to personal preference rather than peak v longevity

Liam O

All time English league draft

2 is enough but I'd not be overly sure about 1. I think outside factors can come into it too, like form from other leagues carrying over and them showing that ability in the PL and thus confirming their level. Like why I can see the Fabinho pick logic. He'd done well in Ligue 1 but despite his low number of games had shown that ability before. Not enough for me to rate him in the top 32-48 PL midfielders ever, but still decent enough.

Morzadec

All time English league draft

martyos121 wrote: »

I bloody knew you’d get Ederson before me Trigger, I noticed you hadn’t gone for a keeper and feared the worst.

Happy to get an experienced keeper in Reina at the end of the day, but I really regret not taking Ederson in the last round. If you take longevity out of it, he’s clearly one of the top 5 keepers to ever play in the league.

I'm not sure I'd rate Ederson over Reina - Reina won numerous golden gloves.

Reina's a good keeper to get. He was very very good with his a feet at a time where no one else was. Ederson is a different class with his feet and a superb sweeper keeper, but Reina was a really superb keeper.

SlickRic

it's all a bit of fun, so it's not that important.

i'm happy with my rag-tag bunch, and that's all that fúcking matters :cool:

Morzadec

All time English league draft

SlickRic wrote: »

goalkeeper is a perfect position to illustrate the longevity argument.

Schmeichel is lauded as the best goalie ever - partly due to the fact he did it for so damn long. Ederson has been superb for 2 seasons - it could be easily argued that 2017/18 in particular he was as good as any single Schmeichel season.

does that mean I consider Ederson as an equal or better than Schmeichel for the purpose of this draft?

this is a genuine question.

I would disagree that Ederson has done anything as good as Schmeichel - the latter was seen as the deciding force to win at least one league title, quite rare for a keeper to have that kind of impact.

Ederson different class with his feet though, so could suit a certain style very well.

I'd agree to draw a line under this debate, because it can go round in circles and I think it's a good point that each voter will decide themselves what matters - I do think longevity matters, just to prove that a player is not a flash in the pan, and consistency does matter. But someone like Sanchez I'll be judging on his Arsenal form, not his United form. I think this is fair to the poster that picked him, his peak was at Arsenal, and he was unreal for one season and very very good for about 3 others for example. Cech too (a player I have). I hope people won't be bringing him his decent enough but not world class performances at Arsenal when they judge him - I very much had the early Chelsea Cech in mind.

Robertson, had it been last summer, I would have been skeptical of judging him as a top class left-back. After another season of 50 odd games of unreal performances for me I'll be rating him as one of the top left-backs in the draw and I think he was a good pick at where he was taken for example. Especially in this type of position, it's not as likely that your form falls off a cliff like a centre-forward

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

Trigger wrote: »

Well not really, Giggs at his peak on the left was as good as anything Bale did on the left during his time at Spurs. I do think that would come down to personal preference rather than peak v longevity

I disagree, I don't think Giggs ever had a season like Bale had around 2013

martyos121

All time European cup competitions draft

Morzadec wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd rate Ederson over Reina - Reina won numerous golden gloves.

Reina's a good keeper to get. He was very very good with his a feet at a time where no one else was. Ederson is a different class with his feet and a superb sweeper keeper, but Reina was a really superb keeper.

Reina for me will always be the better man for keeping the ball out of the net, but Ederson would’ve been a slightly better fit for my team, and he does everything other than shot-stopping better than Reina in my opinion.

I really wanted to take a punt on a less established keeper who I rate higher than both of them, but I’ve already sacrificed far too much in the way of longevity.

Morzadec

All time English league draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think Giggs ever had a season like Bale had around 2013

I'd argue it might not be fair to compare them. It's not far off comparing Beckham to Salah.

But broadly I'd agree. Giggs never had a season in numbers anywhere near like Bale's best (again maybe not a fair comparison based on positions / systems). I believe Giggs won his only pfa award when probably past his peak (though still playing at a very high standard) at centre mid.

Giggs will always deservedly be far higher than Bale in any list of top premier league players, but if you were to make a list of best individual seasons, bale's likely going to have a top 10 entry

Liam O

All time English league draft

Morzadec wrote: »

I'd argue it might not be fair to compare them. It's not far off comparing Beckham to Salah.

But broadly I'd agree. Giggs never had a season in numbers anywhere near like Bale's best (again maybe not a fair comparison based on positions / systems). I believe Giggs won his only pfa award when probably past his peak (though still playing at a very high standard) at centre mid.

Giggs will always deservedly be far higher than Bale in any list of top premier league players, but if you were to make a list of best individual seasons, bale's likely going to have a top 10 entry

I don't know about that. Bale was inconsistent in the league until he moved to Madrid imo. His heavier touches got punished a lot more on the left than on the right and while he was very good I think a lot of people remember his CL performances in that time when thinking of him. There were better players the year he won the PFA award.

Edit: just realised that's true for both Welsh left wingers haha

Skylinehead

redzerdrog wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think Giggs ever had a season like Bale had around 2013

He said Bale on the left....not in 2013.

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

Skylinehead wrote: »

He said Bale on the left....not in 2013.

2012 - 2013 his last season with Spurs iirc he did play on the left and scored 20+ goals

I don't recall him playing much on the right until he moved to Madrid

bucketybuck

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think the Giggs v Bale is the perfect example of longevity v peak ability

Two things I don't like about Giggs, the man himself, and this revisionist thing where he is known as the guy played a long time instead of the world class winger that he originally was.

Giggs in the 90's was a superstar to match anybody, he was a huge part of United coming to the fore from the mid 90's on and there isn't a team in the world that wouldn't have immediately signed him if they had the choice.

I know what the stats say and they don't tell the full story, anybody watching PL football during that period knows just how good Giggs was and how much influence he had. Forget the 20 years playing or whatever it was, had Giggs retired in 2003 aged 30 he would still be a first round pick in a PL draft.

Also, I detest the man. What he and John Terry did is the lowest of the low.

Lucas Hood

Current Premier League Draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

2012 - 2013 his last season with Spurs iirc he did play on the left and scored 20+ goals

I don't recall him playing much on the right until he moved to Madrid

Bale played right wing a fair bit for Spurs and behind the striker in his last season.

Bale in that season was one of best in the world. He came 9th in Balon dor. I don't think Giggs ever hit those levels personally.

Skylinehead

redzerdrog wrote: »

2012 - 2013 his last season with Spurs iirc he did play on the left and scored 20+ goals

I don't recall him playing much on the right until he moved to Madrid

Pretty much behind the striker that season, but free-roaming. Certainly not a classic left winger.

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

I do remember the odd game in a free role but still mostly from the left. Genuinely don't think he played on the right until madrid

Edit: according to the internet he played that season:
32 on the left scoring 19 goals
10 behind the striker
1 at left back
1 on the right

Lucas Hood

Current Premier League Draft

Excuse the shïty source but he admits it himself here.

http://www.realmadridnews.com/gareth-bale-prefer-playing-right-wing-7763


"Last season with Tottenham I didn’t play as much on the left, I was playing more down the middle or on the right – like with Wales. I feel comfortable playing on the right wing, I’m happy there.”

redzerdrog

All time English league draft

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Excuse the shïty source but he admits it himself here.

http://www.realmadridnews.com/gareth-bale-prefer-playing-right-wing-7763


"Last season with Tottenham I didn’t play as much on the left, I was playing more down the middle or on the right – like with Wales. I feel comfortable playing on the right wing, I’m happy there.”

I wouldn't take anything a footballer says as gospel to be honest and that can be interpreted as he didn't play only on the left and was playing more and more in different positions.

The stats are above he was mostly on the left but either way he is not my player so I don't really care. For voting wise for this draft I will be considering him better than Giggs but if I end up facing him in it I will be sure to use your arguments against him :-)

Trigger

All time English league draft

redzerdrog wrote: »

I wouldn't take anything a footballer says as gospel to be honest and that can be interpreted as he didn't play only on the left and was playing more and more in different positions.

The stats are above he was mostly on the left but either way he is not my player so I don't really care. For voting wise for this draft I will be considering him better than Giggs but if I end up facing him in it I will be sure to use your arguments against him :-)

I'm not saying you are wrong here, I can definitely remember him playing all left right and centre during that year, the problem with stats like that through transfermarkt and the like is that they use the starting position, basically from the lineup, you would need to get the average position in each match to determine the true position, statistic sites like that probably wouldnt do that unless you are search each game and getting the heat map.

Also the bold, any argument you make now will be deemed as a total contradiction of what you really think so if you do come up against him your argument will be torn apart