Father and daughter drown at US border

is_that_so

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Sorry I hit post to early. The boy certainly died, and on the beach. But I believe the body had been repositioned for a better shot.

The very famous Iwo Jima flag shot was staged. Some pictures have a much bigger story to tell.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We didn’t but we are now part of a super power that did.

i dont feel part of any super power that did.

do you?

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

i dont feel part of any super power that did.

do you?

it says EU on my passport. Anyway, Africa was butchered and chopped up by Europe, if I was French or Belgian or British I might even feel a little guilty. Maybe European countries should be investing more in Africa to make it a safer and nicer place to live.

Thelonious Monk

Boxing.Fan wrote: »

Why dont we get pictures of European people butchered in terrorist attacks?

Probably because they don't value dead poor people as much as they do dead Europeans, so wouldn't post pictures of their bodies.

Plumbthedepths

According to Wikipedia 7216 have died trying to make the crossing from 1988 to 2017. This photo is just to have a pop at Trump. Where were the photos to have a go at Obama, Bush and Clinton?

ollkiller

We will still be talking about this type of stuff for decades to come. If people live in a country with inherent danger or no opportunities parents will always try to get their children to a better life. Only when third world countries have opportunities will people resist the urge to migrate.

You can bang about about your stupid walls, the they have no right to come here brigade, the left and the right are using blah blah blah for their gain and on and on and on. It will never ever change as long as that level of opportunity is so vastly different between countries. Maybe it's just a by product or the end result of capitalism.

There's enough money in the world (easily) to create a better world for everyone. There's just no will power to do it. We get 70 years on this planet if we're lucky and instead of making the whole planet better we enact protectionist policies and defend imaginary borders. You and I pay tax. If you work there's no way of getting out of it. Until there is a worldwide effort to get corporations to pay their share of tax in the countries where they sell their products will it ever change. Not a hope.

Tasfasdf

is_that_so wrote: »

The very famous Iwo Jima flag shot was staged. Some pictures have a much bigger story to tell.

Yeah these idiots should stay in their own country and not put their children at risk like this idiot did.

Thelonious Monk

Tasfasdf wrote: »

Yeah these idiots should stay in their own country and not put their children at risk like this idiot did.

Poor and starving Irish people left for centuries and were still off to Oz and Canada as soon as the last recession kicked in. Everyone strives for a better life, so as the gap between rich and poor widens and climate and war causes chaos, it's only going to get worse. I wonder how we'll deal with it.

Tasfasdf

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Poor and starving Irish people left for centuries and were still off to Oz and Canada as soon as the last recession kicked in. Everyone strives for a better life, so as the gap between rich and poor widens and climate and war causes chaos, it's only going to get worse. I wonder how we'll deal with it.

Legal vs Illegal

Jupiter Mulligan

is_that_so wrote: »

Journalists record events. You can't really pick and choose which ones should or should not qualify.

Is that a wishy washy way of saying that professional photo-journalists take pictures and try to sell them to newspapers to make money?

The more heart-rending the photo, the bigger the income.


"RTE Investigates" has a report tonight on the cruelty to Irish greyhounds that occurs both at home and after they are exported. I'm sure there will be some pretty horrible pictures in the report.

We can do something - immediately - about greyhound exports, but we can do sfa about people drowning in the Rio Grande.

ollkiller

ollkiller wrote: »

We will still be talking about this type of stuff for decades to come. If people live in a country with inherent danger or no opportunities parents will always try to get their children to a better life. Only when third world countries have opportunities will people resist the urge to migrate.

You can bang about about your stupid walls, the they have no right to come here brigade, the left and the right are using blah blah blah for their gain and on and on and on. It will never ever change as long as that level of opportunity is so vastly different between countries. Maybe it's just a by product or the end result of capitalism.

There's enough money in the world (easily) to create a better world for everyone. There's just no will power to do it. We get 70 years on this planet if we're lucky and instead of making the whole planet better we enact protectionist policies and defend imaginary borders. You and I pay tax. If you work there's no way of getting out of it. Until there is a worldwide effort to get corporations to pay their share of tax in the countries where they sell their products will it ever change. Not a hope.

its hard to know where to start, or if one ought to at all, when a large ideology is shoehorned into a recent event like this.

suffice to say that no ideology has ever solved the problem of inequality and the human desire for more than they require in order to survive, and no ideology has ever managed to agree and apply a consensus on what the correct level of opportunity/attainment ought to be

historically the world is neither in better or worse shape than usual, give or take the effects of technology in convincing us that the things outside our sphere of actual interest are somehow worth so much of our attention and effort

AryaStark

Boxing.Fan wrote: »

It's not our problem. The media are manipulating people once again like they did with the Syrian child.

That wasn't manipulation... it was showing whats happening.

This is everybodys problem.

OMM 0000

AryaStark wrote: »

That wasn't manipulation... it was showing whats happening.

This is everybodys problem.

In fairness it was both "showing what's happening" and manipulation.

The media almost always have an agenda.

SexBobomb

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe we do owe them something given how Europe exploited Africa for so long. Anyway it’s impossible to control European borders. Too vast. I just wonder how it will be dealt with as the situation escalates.

I've heard this a few times ,What do you see Europe owing developing countries ? Is it financial aid or the free movement of citizens of African countries into Europe? genuine question.

is_that_so

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Is that a wishy washy way of saying that professional photo-journalists take pictures and try to sell them to newspapers to make money?

The more heart-rending the photo, the bigger the income.


"RTE Investigates" has a report tonight on the cruelty to Irish greyhounds that occurs both at home and after they are exported. I'm sure there will be some pretty horrible pictures in the report.

We can do something - immediately - about greyhound exports, but we can do sfa about people drowning in the Rio Grande.

No, it's really not. Pics of tired and emotional celebs is really where the cash is. We respond accordingly to such things, as the second part of your post suggests.

Thelonious Monk

SexBobomb wrote: »

I've heard this a few times ,What do you see Europe owing developing countries ? Is it financial aid or the free movement of citizens of African countries into Europe? genuine question.

I'm not really sure. But if you look at the Rwandan genocide, it was caused by the divide and conquer policy of the previous Belgian rulers. Borders were just flung up all over the place, the whole place is a mess. Maybe Europe needs to look at where the flow of immigrants is mostly coming from and invest money in education and health and services in these places.
Or just do nothing, which is more likely, but whether you like it or not the tide of immigrants coming from Africa is only going to increase, and you can't really patrol all of Europe's coastline.

batgoat

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Is that a wishy washy way of saying that professional photo-journalists take pictures and try to sell them to newspapers to make money?

The more heart-rending the photo, the bigger the income.


"RTE Investigates" has a report tonight on the cruelty to Irish greyhounds that occurs both at home and after they are exported. I'm sure there will be some pretty horrible pictures in the report.

We can do something - immediately - about greyhound exports, but we can do sfa about people drowning in the Rio Grande.

It's a humanitarian issue and photojournalism should entirely document it. Nothing wishy washy about it. We've also got pretty horrifying imagery from everything to Vietnam, concentration camps and it's frankly important. Documenting through both the written word and via photography makes events far more difficult to deny or forget.

In terms of how I view the father for his actions. It was pure desperation that drove him to the decision. He was seeking asylum and initially tried going the traditional route, which would have gone on indefinitely. People are dying in the border camps at the moment as is, so guess he viewed as choice between that or crossing, neither promising.

B0jangles

Apparently it's cool for we who are lucky enough to have been born into rich countries to live comparatively safe, comfortable lives, but for those who weren't as lucky, those who are trying to escape from poverty,from war, from the exploitation that our own lifestyles depend upon, is criminal.

Like the coming climate crisis - millions upon millions of people are going to be trying to escape from their increasingly uninhabitable countries just to survive, but the same people who, here on boards, claim that climate change is unavoidable and natural and anyway it's all China's fault, will scream to the heavens about these 'illegals' trying to invade our country.

If you really want to avoid mass immigration, you should be screaming for carbon reduction, you should be screaming for green policies. If you aren't in favour of radical environmental policies in order to try to mitigate the effects of climate change, you are effectively in favour of mass immigration.

Boxing.Fan

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm not really sure. But if you look at the Rwandan genocide, it was caused by the divide and conquer policy of the previous Belgian rulers. Borders were just flung up all over the place, the whole place is a mess. Maybe Europe needs to look at where the flow of immigrants is mostly coming from and invest money in education and health and services in these places.
Or just do nothing, which is more likely, but whether you like it or not the tide of immigrants coming from Africa is only going to increase, and you can't really patrol all of Europe's coastline.

They dont need to patrol ALL of the coastline there are 3 specific routes that I know of from where the majority of these people are coming. From Morocco, Libya and Turkey. If the will is there by the governments of Europe to stop these illegal migrants then it can be done. We've been throwing money at the problem for years it isn't going to stop the flow of migrants coming.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

weldoninhio wrote: »

Lily Allen immediately springs to mind.

Geldof.

If there is a refugee crisis and Europe needs to take in tens of millions then the only way to do this is to spread the cost amongst the fairly well to do. I have a friend who is ultra liberal on migration and appalled at homelessness and yet has a holiday home. And two free bedrooms.

In the WWII internal refugee crisis in the U.K. where 3M children were transferred from cities to the countryside it was precisely that - to other people’s houses.

There’s no bedroom crisis although there is a homeless crisis.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm not really sure. But if you look at the Rwandan genocide, it was caused by the divide and conquer policy of the previous Belgian rulers. Borders were just flung up all over the place, the whole place is a mess. Maybe Europe needs to look at where the flow of immigrants is mostly coming from and invest money in education and health and services in these places.
Or just do nothing, which is more likely, but whether you like it or not the tide of immigrants coming from Africa is only going to increase, and you can't really patrol all of Europe's coastline.

That removes all agency from the perpetrators. The genocide happened years after colonialism.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

B0jangles wrote: »

Apparently it's cool for we who are lucky enough to have been born into rich countries to live comparatively safe, comfortable lives, but for those who weren't as lucky, those who are trying to escape from poverty,from war, from the exploitation that our own lifestyles depend upon, is criminal.

Like the coming climate crisis - millions upon millions of people are going to be trying to escape from their increasingly uninhabitable countries just to survive, but the same people who, here on boards, claim that climate change is unavoidable and natural and anyway it's all China's fault, will scream to the heavens about these 'illegals' trying to invade our country.

If you really want to avoid mass immigration, you should be screaming for carbon reduction, you should be screaming for green policies. If you aren't in favour of radical environmental policies in order to try to mitigate the effects of climate change, you are effectively in favour of mass immigration.

Climate change is only one reason for migration. The population of Africa will be 4B or so in 2100 to Europe’s 400-700M. Europe can’t really fix that.

Africa has to get rich. And aid doesn’t work. Which is why I think the recent upsurge of Chinese investment is a good thing.

Love_BBC

batgoat wrote: »

It's a humanitarian issue and photojournalism should entirely document it. Nothing wishy washy about it. We've also got pretty horrifying imagery from everything to Vietnam, concentration camps and it's frankly important. Documenting through both the written word and via photography makes events far more difficult to deny or forget.

The reason they use photography is to push their agenda.

It's the same with other stories, like kids getting deported.

Remember a few months back the story of the nigerian kid somewhere in Ireland being deported. Pictures, video cameras there to highlight the story. That's because the public would connect with it more and would let their emotions influence them.

No one would care if the news article just said "a 13 year bold is facing deportation after his mother lied/came here illegally." Everyone in this instance would be saying he needs to go.

But put a picture of a smiling, happy child there and suddenly peoples view changes.

B0jangles

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Climate change is only one reason for migration. The population of Africa will be 4B or so in 2100 to Europe’s 400-700M. Europe can’t really fix that.

So should be ignore climate change since addressing it won't fix everything?


Ignoring the reasons why people migrate is incredibly short-sighted. We can build all the walls we like, people will still find ways over and around them if they are under enough pressure to do so.

No-one brings a baby through a river, or over the sea in a massively overloaded boat, or through miles of barbed wire defences because they really want a big mac and a starbucks latté.



They do it when it's life or death.

OMM 0000

B0jangles wrote: »

No-one brings a baby through a river, or over the sea in a massively overloaded boat, or through miles of barbed wire defences because they really want a big mac and a starbucks latté.

They do it when it's life or death.

That's absolutely not true.

Economic migrants do all the things you listed too.

Why?

The payoff is worth it.

RocketRaccoon

AryaStark wrote: »

That wasn't manipulation... it was showing whats happening.

This is everybodys problem.

Why is this everybodys problem?

Thelonious Monk

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

That removes all agency from the perpetrators. The genocide happened years after colonialism.

So Norn Iron isnt the Brits fault either

B0jangles

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's absolutely not true.

Economic migrants do all the things you listed too.

Why?

The payoff is worth it.

Would you stay working in a job that paid you 1.50/hour if moving to another city would get you one paying 40/hour? Would you feel that it was your moral duty to stay in the job with horrible pay just because the people in the other city don't like the look of people from your town?

LillySV

THe people and enterprises making money out of transporting these immigrants to western countries need to be targeted and taken out, simple as that.

Plumbthedepths

B0jangles wrote: »

So should be ignore climate change since addressing it won't fix everything?


Ignoring the reasons why people migrate is incredibly short-sighted. We can build all the walls we like, people will still find ways over and around them if they are under enough pressure to do so.

No-one brings a baby through a river, or over the sea in a massively overloaded boat, or through miles of barbed wire defences because they really want a big mac and a starbucks latté.



They do it when it's life or death.

The child lying on a Turkish beach was not fleeing death, his family was already in the safety of Turkey his father decided this wasn't good enough though.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you stay working in a job that paid you 1.50/hour if moving to another city would get you one paying 40/hour? Would you feel that it was your moral duty to stay in the job with horrible pay just because the people in the other city don't like the look of people from your town?

moral duty?

thats an impressive elision

Thelonious Monk

Boxing.Fan wrote: »

They dont need to patrol ALL of the coastline there are 3 specific routes that I know of from where the majority of these people are coming. From Morocco, Libya and Turkey. If the will is there by the governments of Europe to stop these illegal migrants then it can be done. We've been throwing money at the problem for years it isn't going to stop the flow of migrants coming.

Obviously many new routes will open up if others are shut down.

Boxing.Fan

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you stay working in a job that paid you 1.50/hour if moving to another city would get you one paying 40/hour? Would you feel that it was your moral duty to stay in the job with horrible pay just because the people in the other city don't like the look of people from your town?

Not a good comparison here mate, we are talking about illegal migration. Yes, I could move to cork tomorrow for a better paying job. Its legal for me to do so. We have borders and an asylum process no one should be allowed to get around these things.

Thelonious Monk

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The child lying on a Turkish beach was not fleeing death, his family was already in the safety of Turkey his father decided this wasn't good enough though.

I wouldn’t live in turkey either!

Franz Von Peppercorn II

B0jangles wrote: »

So should be ignore climate change since addressing it won't fix everything?

Didn’t say that. I guarantee I am probably doing more on climate change than you.

Ignoring the reasons why people migrate is incredibly short-sighted. We can build all the walls we like, people will still find ways over and around them if they are under enough pressure to do so.

Poverty is the main reason. Don’t expect floods of people from Florida to Europe. And walls do work. Look at Japan. Eastern Europe. I’m not commending zero immigration either but it’s possible.

No-one brings a baby through a river, or over the sea in a massively overloaded boat, or through miles of barbed wire defences because they really want a big mac and a starbucks latté
They do it when it's life or death.

Actually of course the main reason for migration into the US is economic. In fact Mexican immigration has fallen as Mexico has gotten richer.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states

weldoninhio

batgoat wrote: »

It's a humanitarian issue and photojournalism should entirely document it. Nothing wishy washy about it. We've also got pretty horrifying imagery from everything to Vietnam, concentration camps and it's frankly important. Documenting through both the written word and via photography makes events far more difficult to deny or forget.

In terms of how I view the father for his actions. It was pure desperation that drove him to the decision. He was seeking asylum and initially tried going the traditional route, which would have gone on indefinitely. People are dying in the border camps at the moment as is, so guess he viewed as choice between that or crossing, neither promising.

Mexico had offered asylum to the caravan of immigrants. Strangely most of them refused it.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you stay working in a job that paid you 1.50/hour if moving to another city would get you one paying 40/hour? Would you feel that it was your moral duty to stay in the job with horrible pay just because the people in the other city don't like the look of people from your town?

Plenty of people stay where they are. Are you suggesting no worldwide borders? Because the effect of that would be end of the 40/hour wage for everybody.

weldoninhio

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm not really sure. But if you look at the Rwandan genocide, it was caused by the divide and conquer policy of the previous Belgian rulers. Borders were just flung up all over the place, the whole place is a mess. Maybe Europe needs to look at where the flow of immigrants is mostly coming from and invest money in education and health and services in these places.
Or just do nothing, which is more likely, but whether you like it or not the tide of immigrants coming from Africa is only going to increase, and you can't really patrol all of Europe's coastline.

Europe has flooded Africa with money left, right and centre, for the past 40 years. It's not our fault they haven't used it to improve things there.

Plumbthedepths

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I wouldn’t live in turkey either!

Whether you would or not is irrelevant, it was a safe place but the father of that little boy decided to risk his families life causing the death of his son just for his own selfish reasons.

Jupiter Mulligan

batgoat wrote: »

It's a humanitarian issue and photojournalism should entirely document it.

Of course it should! Now, be a dear and point to where I stated otherwise.

Alternatively, kindly desist from twisting my posts to fit your hand-wringing agenda.

Danzy

A German people smuggler is facing 20 years in Italy.

Severe sentences for those who partake in smuggling or moving illegals.

Severe penalties for those who employ illegals, rent accommodation to illegals, who know someone is illegal but do not report it.

The focus of Western militaries will become border security.

Alternative is to let the activists and corporations win and have an ultra free market society.

If Europe took a hundred million people from its periphery over the next decade it would not change things in those countries in the slightest, the same number would be mobile again in, in half the time.

Europe would have collapsed in to chaos though.

Jupiter Mulligan

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Why is this everybodys problem?

Because some of us feel compelled to bear the full weight of the world's problems upon our broad shoulders.

Mind you, many of the same people would be up in arms if their local council decided to locate a halting site across the road from them!

.

Danzy

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Plenty of people stay where they are. Are you suggesting no worldwide borders? Because the effect of that would be end of the 40/hour wage for everybody.

Why don't they do what any Anarchist would do, and have daddy write a cheque.

OMM 0000

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you stay working in a job that paid you 1.50/hour if moving to another city would get you one paying 40/hour? Would you feel that it was your moral duty to stay in the job with horrible pay just because the people in the other city don't like the look of people from your town?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You said people only take dangerous migration routes when it's a matter of life and death, and I responded saying that's not true, many (most?) illegal immigrants are economic immigrants.

Boxing.Fan

I recommend people watch the documentary borderless to see what's actually happening with migrants in southern Europe. And all the ****ery going on an people profiting from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_fz9EW5Iw

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Because some of us bear the full weight of the world's problems upon our broad shoulders.

Mind you, many of the same people would be up in arms if their local council decided to locate a halting site across the road from them!

Or a new block of apartments. Or refugee centres which are generally pushed to the arse end of nowhere.

Until the rich start taking in refugees into their areas and houses nothing can be done about it.

B0jangles

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Didn’t say that. I guarantee I am probably doing more on climate change than you.



Poverty is the main reason. Don’t expect floods of people from Florida to Europe. And walls do work. Look at Japan. Eastern Europe. I’m not commending zero immigration either but it’s possible.



Actually of course the main reason for migration into the US is economic. In fact Mexican immigration has fallen as Mexico has gotten richer.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states

Yeah, people move to escape poverty, that's half of my point?

Along with making serious efforts to mitigate the impact of climate change, efforts need to be made to address the massive, massive global wealth inequalities. This would mean most people could live reasonably comfortably in their own countries, not trek hundreds or thousands of miles with small children just to live in a single room and work a minimum wage job when they get there.


Fundamentally, the comfort of our lives is built on their poverty.



(btw, why on earth you felt the need to say you 'guarantee I am probably doing more on climate change than you' is baffling. You know nothing whatsoever about what I do or don't do, and I know nothing about you either.)

Danzy

If the crisis is not tightly handled you'll see a working class rebellion across Europe that will put people much stricter on illegals than Orban and Salvini in power.

Thelonious Monk

My brother was showing me around Malta recently and there’s one area full of African migrants in limbo. Skinny af, hardly any teeth, and absolutely destitute. It’s heart breaking to see them. The abject poverty they come from is hard for any of us to imagine. All I know is I’d be doing the best to get the F out of whatever ****hole it is they come from if I was them. I wonder if wealth could ever be better distributed throughout the world or if it’s just going end in chaos.

Boxing.Fan

Danzy wrote: »

If the crisis is not tightly handled you'll see a working class rebellion across Europe that will put people much stricter on illegals than Orban and Salvini in power.

That's what is going to happen. I welcome it.