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RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry
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MarinersBlues wrote: »
Very little bookmaker turnover is from greyhounds. Soccer, Tennis, American sports are all ahead of horse racing, greyhound racing is well down the pecking order.
There are plenty of tracks in Ireland that race without bookmakers being present.
Bookies in England and the pushing of poor standard races are the root cause of the decline in England.
£100 million. That's what the online UK market turns over from Greyhound Bets. If you ever want to see a disproportionate system, I suggest you go onto Betfair and see the amount of money bet on one particular greyhound race versus the money for the winning owner.
On Betfair Exchange for a basement grade (A10) at Crayford, the prize money was 105stg for the winner. Yet just shy of 14k was bet on the race through the exchange with that one bookie alone. There will be 24 meetings on today with anything up to 14 races at a meeting. I'm sure you can do the maths.
Irish tracks are now providing graded races for SIS and the UK industry in the mornings from 8am and at night time.
The root of the problems in the UK industry is from the take out merchants who owned the tracks and controlled it in every way, not sticking a whole lot back in. Only online gambling is keeping the "industry" alive. The industry of making money.
The dogs that end up at UK tracks are mainly sourced from Ireland. They are sold for small money to fill gambling needs in the UK.MarinersBlues wrote: »
You have made some incorrect assumptions that lead to incorrect conclusions.
Without properly understanding the problem you won't find an appropriate solution.
No I have not. I fully understand it.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Leaving out the betting companies, there are roughly 10,000 people employed in all parts of the greyhound industry. From IGB, stadium staff, public trainers and their employees, greyhound stud keepers and their employees, private trainers, breeders, schooling tracks, suppliers of feed, vets, stadium suppliers ie food and drink....I’m sure that I’ve forgotten some
Got some actual data sources for this? Directly associated with greyhound racing - so, Vets that are in general practice don't count necessarily.
There are 1500 greyhound races per year more or less per the IGB report. That's 5 per day. Not very much, somehow 1500 races a year don't seem like they'd support 10,000 jobs.0 -
None are decay-inducing like gambling.All thats a bit kitchen sinkish no? Lots of sectors recieve subsidies eg roads, employment, transport, all types of sports, age related services etc and not all by any means "contribute to the nations coffer" directly or even indirectly.
We *need* roads. We *need* age related services, guards, police, hospitals. If all gambling ended tomorrow in Ireland the society would, after the shock wore off, move along just fine. We don't need to subsidize it as a nationAs for gambling- this is already effectively state sanctioned eg the lottery. Does this feed an addiction? Possibly - however the government doesnt seem to be overtly concerned there tbh. If you believe it is a "vice" then that's fine - it does not mean that others should concur as to that sentiment tbh. To mix a few metaphors - perhaps rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and tarring everyone with the same brush - we need to find what the truth is. It remains that at the moment the report that the RTE programme highlighted is under dispute.
There's way too much dithering in Ireland to get anything done. Extremism is warranted in this case, it really is wrong to let this go on unopposed. How many thousands of more dogs will be destroyed to benefit bookies in Ireland, Macao and the UK before we, as a nation, are convinced this awful industry needs to be shut down?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »There is no plausible evidence for the unaccounted pups. Which is why IGB commissioned the report. No one can act on something without facts. They now have those facts and are acting on them.
Exactly. If the figures are correct then we should be knee deep on Greyhounds. We aren't because they are dead. The IGB ICC could suddenly say Look we've found thousands of missing dogs & they are all living good lives :rolleyes:0 -
Got some actual data sources for this? Directly associated with greyhound racing - so, Vets that are in general practice don't count necessarily.
There are 1500 greyhound races per year more or less per the IGB report. That's 5 per day. Not very much, somehow 1500 races a year don't seem like they'd support 10,000 jobs.
I think its 10,000 people involved rather than directly employed. I would say the majority are small time owners who are in it as a hobby. Then there are small time owners/breeders who are in it part time. There are only a small number people in it full time and again a small amount of these are in it in an industrial scale. A lot of the issues are driven by the industrial scale owners/breeders.0 -
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Do you think it would be possible to reinvent the greyhound racing industry as one that primarily cares about the welfare of the dogs? I feel it's theoretically possible, but the reality of the historic treatment of all dogs (and particularly sighthounds) in this country makes me wonder if abuse is too endemic for it to work.
Do we have tough laws? Genuine question as I always thought the issue was that we didn't. Is it lack of enforcement that's the issue?
That can never happen. You can't guarantee that a pup will be a winner, only a small percentage are. So you will always be left with "waste" that cost a lot to feed & care for - probably a lot more than you are ever likely to win.
So no. The only answer is a total, outright ban.0 -
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That can never happen. You can't guarantee that a pup will be a winner, only a small percentage are. So you will always be left with "waste" that cost a lot to feed & care for - probably a lot more than you are ever likely to win.
So no. The only answer is a total, outright ban.
Problem is that greyhound racing doesn't exist in a bubble. There's a lot of underground related "industries" like coursing. They aren't just going to disappear and completely removing the racing industry will result in a lot of the worst kind of people just moving underground. Animal abuse isn't confined to the racecourse unfortunately.0 -
Problem is that greyhound racing doesn't exist in a bubble. There's a lot of underground related "industries" like coursing. They aren't just going to disappear and completely removing the racing industry will result in a lot of the worst kind of people just moving underground. Animal abuse isn't confined to the racecourse unfortunately.
Coursing isn’t an underground industry. It’s licensed and legal.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Er, roughly 10,000.
Pfffff. Me hole. 10,000 people have no source of income that isn't related to the greyhound industry? Laughable. Even the people working in the stadiums are usually using it as a secondary source of income. The tracks are only open a few days a week so unless you're a full-time IGB employee (a minor percentage of the people that work there), you're not earning a liveable wage from those hours.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Er, roughly 10,000.
No, reliant full time jobs.
Not the OAP "trainer" who keeps two greyhounds in his back garden.
Not the student who opens the track three times a week.
Not the vet with their general practice.
You might find that reliant jobs are IGB own people and industrial breeders and not much else...0 -
Problem is that greyhound racing doesn't exist in a bubble. There's a lot of underground related "industries" like coursing. They aren't just going to disappear and completely removing the racing industry will result in a lot of the worst kind of people just moving underground. Animal abuse isn't confined to the racecourse unfortunately.
Phase in a ban on racing & an immediate ban on Coursing. Make the existing owners register & neuter. Rescue dogs can be exempted as can private individuals that keep Greyhounds as pets.
The worst kind are already underground. The key is to make the penalties severe enough.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Er, roughly 10,000.
Are you for real? So every vet you mentioned is “actually “ reliant on the greyhound business? And every dog food supplier only sells greyhound food ? And stadium suppliers who supply food and drink are solely and “actually” reliant on the greyhound business.....meaning they are exclusive?
They don’t supply to rugby matches, GAA, festivals, concerts, marathons? They put all their eggs in one basket and solely supply the greyhound business? You’re having a laugh. :rolleyes:
You pulled the figure of 10K people being reliant on the greyhound industry out of the sky ! Either that or back it up........with a link.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Coursing isn’t an underground industry. It’s licensed and legal.
Most of it is illegal. Talk to the many farmers who have been intimidated by groups of men trespassing on their land. Yes the ICC can say that they disapprove, that these gangs use Lurchers but I guarantee that a lot of them will turn up at Clonmel.0 -
You can legally course but not all coursing is legal. Or are you trying to say that no illegal coursing occurs in this country?Deleted User wrote: »Coursing isn’t an underground industry. It’s licensed and legal.0 -
You can legally course but not all coursing is legal. Or are you trying to say that no illegal coursing occurs in this country?
It was pointed out in the documentary that a retired guard and ICB functionary who might've been responsible for coursing enforcement (I don't recall exactly, it's in the documentary though) was filmed participating in illegal coursing on an island loaded with wild hares. When confronted he claimed he 'thought' everything was legal. Well, that's settled then, as long as he feels it was legal, it was legal.
B*stard.0 -
I'm actually getting some meaningful responses from my TDs (not the norm, usually they only acknowledge), looks like they are well aware of the impact of the expose.
Next I'm contacting 2 companies from the list of racing supporters I use regularly to ask about their stance too.
Any other ideas?0 -
Phase in a ban on racing & an immediate ban on Coursing. Make the existing owners register & neuter. Rescue dogs can be exempted as can private individuals that keep Greyhounds as pets.
The worst kind are already underground. The key is to make the penalties severe enough.
There’s some extraordinary comments on this thread
- Fact1
There’ll be no ban on coursing or Greyhound racing in our lifetimes in Ireland; what we should strive for is people working together to weed out the type of carry on by a small group of individuals seen on PTI; unfortunately a lot of anti blood sports gang r too busy trying to drum up the lynch mob and shouting ‘Evil Murderer coursing men ‘ blah blah blah to ever be taken seriously by anyone in power.
-Fact 2
I see constant references to Hare coursing and Clonmel etc in this thread; All of these people posting not only have never been to the National Meeting in Clonmel, they’ve never been to a coursing meeting anywhere or possibly ever been to a dog track; They then seem to talk expertly about all aspects of Greyhound racing and coursing despite actually never been coursing; It’d like me dictating to IRFU how they should run rugby in the country even though I never played Rugby or actually know basically nothing about it but fully expecting the IRFU to take on board my views- not how the world works folks .
Fact 3- The ultimate Irony I’ll call it
If the anti blood sport people could actually for a minute stop shouting childish abusive vitriol at every gathering they attend their minds might clear and see that coursing and anti coursing people are actually on the same side of the fence; there’s nobody doing more for hares in the country than coursing clubs- nobody;
Hares caught for coursing are monitored strictly (including worm dosed etc) by NPWS ; there’s no mystery why on land managed by coursing clubs hare numbers are much higher than areas where they’re not.
There’s seems to be still the ever present notion that the winner of a course is the dog that kills the hare -Eh No; can we clear this up once and for all- it’s the dog that turns the hare first or the dog that’s in front on a straight course where the hare reaches the enclosure at the top of the run; All dogs are muzzled;
If coursing clubs go there’ll be a catastrophic decline in hares; research what happened in UK the first year after the ban; they shot 100’000’s hare across the country- that was a good outcome boys!!!!
The biggest threat to coursing at present is illegal coursing; again please note the dogs used here are NOT Greyhounds; A Greyhound will run very fast over 5/600 yards but after that he’s done more or less ; if I went out into a field with a standard Greyhound( coursing or track) I’d have very little to zero chance of ever catching a hare; firstly that hare would know every gap and run in the surrounding mile an would be gone for the hills with your expensive Greyhound probably impaled on barbed wire etc; the people engaging in this type of coursing are using Lurchers or lurchers crosses with deer hounds etc etc to breed a dog that will run with stamina for many miles until eventually the hare is so tired the dog will kill it; Again I cannot stress enough that the above paragraph has absolutely NOTHING to do with IGB/ICC or anything to do with Greyhound owners in Ireland in way whatsoever;
Again this goes back to my point of people blathering in about the IGB/ICC without ever attempting to talk to Greyhound owners or attend a meeting -please attend a coursing meeting and educate yourselves and maybe even speak in a reasonable manner to the people you’ll meet there- and then by all means yes please continue to shout your murderous slogans and play your footage of the Greyhound boiling in the pot of water!0 -
Straffan1979 wrote: »There’s some extraordinary comments on this thread
unfortunately a lot of anti blood sports gang r too busy trying to drum up the lynch mob and shouting ‘Evil Murderer coursing men ‘ blah blah blah to ever be taken seriously by anyone in power.
.
Fact 3- The ultimate Irony I’ll call it
If the anti blood sport people could actually for a minute stop shouting childish abusive vitriol at every gathering they attend their minds might clear and see that coursing and anti coursing people are actually on the same side of the fence; there’s nobody doing more for hares in the country than coursing clubs- nobody;
Again this goes back to my point of people blathering in about the IGB/ICC without ever attempting to talk to Greyhound owners or attend a meeting -and then by all means yes please continue to shout your murderous slogans and play your footage of the Greyhound boiling in the pot of water!
I think you need to work on your own verbal skills if you want people to listen to you.
Any as for your rugby analogy - as as ex-rugby player I can confirm no player is ever killed for being too slow. Nor it it breed 10,000 potential players and hope to get enough good ones for the 4 provinces.0 -
Straffan1979 wrote: »There’s some extraordinary comments on this thread
- Fact1
There’ll be no ban on coursing or Greyhound racing in our lifetimes in Ireland; what we should strive for is people working together to weed out the type of carry on by a small group of individuals seen on PTI; unfortunately a lot of anti blood sports gang r too busy trying to drum up the lynch mob and shouting ‘Evil Murderer coursing men ‘ blah blah blah to ever be taken seriously by anyone in power.
-Fact 2
I see constant references to Hare coursing and Clonmel etc in this thread; All of these people posting not only have never been to the National Meeting in Clonmel, they’ve never been to a coursing meeting anywhere or possibly ever been to a dog track; They then seem to talk expertly about all aspects of Greyhound racing and coursing despite actually never been coursing; It’d like me dictating to IRFU how they should run rugby in the country even though I never played Rugby or actually know basically nothing about it but fully expecting the IRFU to take on board my views- not how the world works folks .
Fact 3- The ultimate Irony I’ll call it
If the anti blood sport people could actually for a minute stop shouting childish abusive vitriol at every gathering they attend their minds might clear and see that coursing and anti coursing people are actually on the same side of the fence; there’s nobody doing more for hares in the country than coursing clubs- nobody;
Hares caught for coursing are monitored strictly (including worm dosed etc) by NPWS ; there’s no mystery why on land managed by coursing clubs hare numbers are much higher than areas where they’re not.
There’s seems to be still the notion that the winner of a course is the dog that kills the hare -Eh No; can we clear this up once and for all- it’s the dog that turns the hare first or the dog that’s in front on a straight course where the hare reaches the enclosure at the top of the run; All dogs are muzzled;
If coursing clubs go there’ll be a catastrophic decline in hares; research what happened in UK the first year after the ban; they shot 100’000’s hare across the country- that was a good outcome boys!!!!
The biggest threat to coursing at present is illegal coursing; again please note the dogs used here are NOT Greyhounds; A Greyhound will run very fast over 5/600 yards but after that he’s done more or less ; if I went out into a field with a standard Greyhound coursing or track I’d have very little to zero chance of ever catching a hare; firstly that hare would know every gap and run in the surrounding mile an would be gone for the hills with your expensive Greyhound probably impaled on barbed wire etc; the people engaging in this type of coursing are using Lurchers or lurchers crosses with deer hounds etc etc to breed a dog that will run with stamina for many miles until eventually the hare is so tired the dog will kill it; Again I cannot stress enough that the above paragraph has absolutely NOTHING to do with IGB/ICC or anything to do with Greyhound owners in Ireland in way whatsoever;
Again this goes back to my point of people blathering in about the IGB/ICC without ever attempting to talk to Greyhound owners or attend a meeting -and then by all means yes please continue to shout your murderous slogans and play your footage of the Greyhound boiling in the pot of water!
So at least 6000 dogs are being killed by a small group of individuals :rolleyes:
It was only a matter of time before the Antis were mentioned. In other words anyone who opposes animal cruelty is an Anti - so about 90% of the posters here.
I have been to Clonmel but it doesn't take a genius to work out that Coursing is cruel.
We could never be on the same side. You derive pleasure from subjecting a wild animal to cruel & totally unnecessary abuse. Hare numbers will be fine without your mock conservation to justify taking an animal from the wild for your "sport".
Coursing is so good for the Hare that many countries have banned it & Ireland will follow. Ireland is changing & the old horrible traditions are ending.
The IGB & ICC have no interest in discussion because they & their members can't see that their practices are cruel.0 -
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So at least 6000 dogs are being killed by a small group of individuals :rolleyes:
It was only a matter of time before the Antis were mentioned. In other words anyone who opposes animal cruelty is an Anti - so about 90% of the posters here.
I have been to Clonmel but it doesn't take a genius to work out that Coursing is cruel.
We could never be on the same side. You derive pleasure from subjecting a wild animal to cruel & totally unnecessary abuse. Hare numbers will be fine without your mock conservation to justify taking an animal from the wild for your "sport".
Coursing is so good for the Hare that many countries have banned it & Ireland will follow. Ireland is changing & the old horrible traditions are ending.
The IGB & ICC have no interest in discussion because they & their members can't see that their practices are cruel.
I think you will find that claim has already been held up to scrutiny and found wanting tbh.
Well you've been going on about antis in this thread for some time now. But yes there are groups / interests who want to shut down all legal greyhound activities no matter how good they were. What would you call them out of interest?
As far as I can see it wouldn't matter if greyhound owners signed up to the the entire rule book under threat of extradition to Siberia - there are some who will never be satisfied.
Tbh the poster has made some very valuable points. But hey go ahead put the hands over the ears like they can't be heard...0 -
I think you will find thats already been held up to scrutiny and found wanting tbh.
Well you've been going on about antis in this thread for some time now. But yes there are groups / interests who want to shut down all legal greyhound activities. What would you call them out of interest?
As far as I can see it wouldn't matter if greyhound owners signed up to the the entire rule book under threat of extradition to Siberia - there are some who will never be satisfied.
Tbh the poster has made some very valuable points. But hey go ahead put the hands over the ears like they can't be heard...
Yes I suspect that the previous research, that put the figure at 10,000, is probably closer.
I would call them normal everyday people who don't need to be pigeon holed & vilified because they oppose animal cruelty.
They did sign up to a rule book. But the rules mean nothing as no one ever gets punished.
I heard the points. I have heard them hundreds of times. I have heard the supposed validation of Greyhound racing & Coursing. But I don't agree with their points because I don't approve of animal cruelty.0 -
The answer to everything is BAN BAN BAN;
In a democracy just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you can dictate to others what they can or can’t engage in.
I would like to see an educated debate though- we’re really done with the ‘Murderer’ type mud slinging that’s the center of this debate for a long time.
I still laugh at the fox hunting ban UK; most fox hunters on horses wouldn’t catch a fox if he sat up on the horse beside them- it’s hilarious;
meanwhile 100,000’s foxes are shot as vermin every month by farmers for killing lambs etc and there’s not a word about it or noone bats an eyelid- extraordinary.
Again it comes down to people engaging in an uneducated debate- and goes back to my original point that a lot of the footage in PTI was just playing to the anti blood sport Lynch mob and will actually set us back years as regards having a meaningful adult debate about the sport and it’s problem areas - Which I acknowledge are very serious for the sport going forward; the decent Greyhound people of the country have been badly failed by the governing of the sport for a long time.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »I think you need to work on your own verbal skills if you want people to listen to you.
Any as for your rugby analogy - as as ex-rugby player I can confirm no player is ever killed for being too slow. Nor it it breed 10,000 potential players and hope to get enough good ones for the 4 provinces.
sure we’ll move this to the English writing forum- the grammar police are out0 -
Straffan1979 wrote: »the decent Greyhound people of the country have been badly failed by the governing of the sport for a long time.
So why don't decent greyhound people go on the telly or radio to say how the governance is failing them and to air the rot?
Any time we have owners speaking it's to whitewash and blame it on some unspecified rogue element, while it's plain to see by the numbers the governance has failed and toxic practice is rife.0 -
Interesting data here: https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/power-report-2018/power-report---the-economic--financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry---november-2017.pdf
Page 4 has some interesting data.
This is from 2017. At that time, the IGB employed 850 people. The ICC another 180. "Betting sector" was 1170. The IGB (sponsors of the report) claim '5058 Direct & Indirect employment' in the industry. Not even close to the 10,000 someone was on about.
If you add in 'greyhound owners' the number swells to 12,000. But, that assumes greyhound owners, get some benefit from the greyhound racing industry. Seems pretty pathetic to include owners.
It also states for 2016 that 14,000 pups were whelped. Presumably that's average per year
Oh and the IGB is running a surplus in their budget.0 -
Straffan1979 wrote: »sure we’ll move this to the English writing forum- the grammar police are out
Hey -you are the one who was "blathering" on about the need for people to work together. I was simply pointing out that your choice of words are unlikely to get you heard.
You get upset at "anti" shouting insulting things and the proceed to use dismissive language. Not a good way to drive a discussion forward imho.
Also, I never mentioned your grammar. Perhaps you should call the reading comprehension paramedics?0 -
Straffan1979 wrote: »The answer to everything is BAN BAN BAN;
In a democracy just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you can dictate to others what they can or can’t engage in.
I would like to see an educated debate though- we’re really done with the ‘Murderer’ type mud slinging that’s the center of this debate for time.
I still laugh at the fox hunting ban UK; most fox hunters on horses wouldn’t catch a fox if he sat up on the horse beside them- it’s hilarious;
meanwhile 100,000’s foxes are shot as vermin every month by farmers for killing lambs etc and there’s not a word about it or noone bats an eyelid- extraordinary.
Again it comes down to people engaging in an uneducated debate- and goes back to my original point that a lot of the footage in PTI was just playing to the anti blood sport Lynch mob and will actually set us back years as regards having a meaningful adult debate about the sport and it’s problem areas - Which I acknowledge are very serious for the sport going forward; the decent Greyhound people of the country have been badly failed by the governing of the sport for a long time.
Animal cruelty is illegal. The vast majority of people support this. We can dictate that you don't break the law.
We aren't discussing fox hunting - yet more diversion & whataboutery.
It's about time that "the decent Greyhound people" policed their "sport". When will I see these people calling the Guards & reporting cruelty ?
When will I see them totally opposing the killing of unwanted dogs ?
When will I see them controlling the numbers of pup being bred ?0 -
Yes I suspect that the previous research, that put the figure at 10,000, is probably closer.
I would call them normal everyday people who don't need to be pigeon holed & vilified because they oppose animal cruelty.
They did sign up to a rule book. But the rules mean nothing as no one ever gets punished.
I heard the points. I have heard them hundreds of times. I have heard the supposed validation of Greyhound racing & Coursing. But I don't agree with their points because I don't approve of animal cruelty.
Suspect? Indeed I'm sure you do. Your personal suspicions are not good enough I'm afraid.
It's funny how some of those same 'anti' interests delight in pigeon holding & vilifying / taring everyone with the same brush because they have a personal dislike of legal activities such as greyhound racing. And absolutly nothing will change their minds.
Ah the old "animal cruelty" refrain. Its amazing how that phrase is a conveniently moveable goalpost depending on who is wielding
Some people even believe keeping domestic animals is cruel. Strange that.
Again you are claiming all ie 'they' are culpable. -no matter what, but no that doesn't wash tbh.0 -
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Interesting data here: https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/power-report-2018/power-report---the-economic--financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry---november-2017.pdf
Page 4 has some interesting data.
This is from 2017. At that time, the IGB employed 850 people. The ICC another 180. "Betting sector" was 1170. The IGB (sponsors of the report) claim '5058 Direct & Indirect employment' in the industry. Not even close to the 10,000 someone was on about.
If you add in 'greyhound owners' the number swells to 12,000. But, that assumes greyhound owners, get some benefit from the greyhound racing industry. Seems pretty pathetic to include owners.
It also states for 2016 that 14,000 pups were whelped. Presumably that's average per year
Oh and the IGB is running a surplus in their budget.
Given an average lifespan of 12 years there should be 170,000 of them out there. Where are they ?0
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