RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

ILoveYourVibes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Another linky in case FB is deemed not 'proper'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-greyhounds-being-sold-puppy-14438715?fbclid=IwAR0gtb5UkSCI_fNksQvutb-I-RPtWBtvEq0Xqv6MbSmXToz3bope1mndISc

This is Droopy Dale's IGB entry: https://www.igb.ie/results/greyhound-search/greyhound-details/?gid=DROOPYS%20DALE

And surely rehoming droopy to the US or the UK rather than continental europe would be better no?

What is the logic in rehoming abused greyounds to spain, greece or Italy?

Bannasidhe

gozunda wrote: »

Btw I had searched the candy cane site and found nothing relevant in the first instance btw.

The two dogs you listed appear to have been breed here but bought and brought to the UK to be raced. And it appears that it was from the UK these dogs were exported to China even though one of the dog owners claims he sold the dog to an American buyer

And further detail that the Irish breeders stoped selling to China and elsewhere when they became aware of some of the awful conditions.

So no this particular pair of dogs do not relate to feckless Irish breeders as some here would have us believe.

You are correct in one thing only ..

Morto for you now...

Jayzuz those goal posts are moving at a fierce rate aren't they. Watch out you don't get whiplash.

You asked for a link that proved an Irish greyhound was rescued from China because you couldn't find one. I gave you proof.

I don't make claims unless I can back them up. As I have done each and every time in this thread.

I am no longer engaging with your quibbling nitpicking. You got what you asked for.

Droopy Dale is an Irish greyhound who was sold to China. Droopy Dale was rescued and returned to Europe./

ILoveYourVibes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Droopy Dale is an Irish greyhound who was sold to China. Droopy Dale was rescued and returned to Europe./

Where in Europe? Dogs are no safer in some parts of Europe. South of Italy Greece Spain etc.


And I am not disagreeing with your evaluation of the IGB etc.

gozunda

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jayzuz those goal posts are moving at a fierce rate aren't they. Watch out you don't get whiplash.

Whats with the continuing failure of attacking the post and not the poster?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You asked for a link that proved an Irish greyhound was rescued from China because you couldn't find one. I gave you proof.

Did you?
You must have missed this ...

gozunda wrote:

Btw I had searched the candy cane site (which oddly you told me to go and talk to the person there) and found nothing relevant to your claim in the first instance btw.

The two dogs you listed in the subsequent link you just provided appear to have been breed here but bought and brought to the UK to be raced. And it appears that it was from the UK these dogs were exported to China even though one of the dog owners there claims he sold the dog to an American buyer

And further detail that the Irish breeders stopped selling to foreign buyers and elsewhere when they became aware of some of the awful conditions.

So no this particular pair of dogs do not relate to feckless Irish breeders and similar exaggeration as some here would have us believe.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't make claims unless I can back them up. As I have done each and every time in this thread.

Droopy Dale is an Irish greyhound who was sold to China. Droopy Dale was rescued and returned to Europe./

You haven't backed the claims up at all. Droopy dale was an greyhound bred in Ireland and then sold to the UK where he raced and from where he was exported. The original breeders here stopped even selling their dogs abroad after. So not even close to the picture painted in your original reply or the detail about the candy cane rescue

I would love to know where I Europe this dog is supposed to have gone...

But no worries. I've learned enough in this exchange to cast a cold eye over a lot which is presented here tbh.

ILoveYourVibes

gozunda wrote: »

Whats with the continuing failure of attacking the post and not the poster?



Did you?
You must have missed this ...





You haven't backed the claims up at all. Droopy dale was an greyhound bred in Ireland and then sold to the UK where he raced and from where he was exported. The original breeders here stopped even selling their dogs abroad after. So not even close to the picture painted in your original reply or the detail about the candy cane rescue

I would love to know where I Europe this dog is supposed to have gone...

But no worries. I've learned enough in this exchange to cast a cold eye over a lot which is presented here tbh.

In my humble opinion no animal should be sold abroad or rehomed rescued etc.

Its too hard to keep track of.

They don't have greyounds in Europe to rehome themselves?

gozunda

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Where in Europe? Dogs are no safer in some parts of Europe. South of Italy Greece Spain etc.

And I am not disagreeing with your evaluation of the IGB etc.

Reading what little there is on this issue - it would appear that currently that Irish dogs are being legally sold to the UK and from there had been exported to China

In a statement I found online - the IGB state they are "opposed to exports to countries that do not meet Ireland’s welfare standards and we would welcome legislation in this area, but this may be needed on a European level.”A spokesperson for the IGB added ‘These exports are not representative of the national greyhound sector" and suggest that those selling outside their remit.

That as maybe - It would also appear that on a national level the import and export of dogs including greyhounds remains legal with estimated figures of some 30,000 (pet) dogs also being breed here and exportrd annually.

Who knows what happens to any of them? I agree with you on this issue of selling etc .

ILoveYourVibes

Discodog wrote: »

I think this needs to change.

The ISPCA are the National organisation. The conflict between the ISPCA & SPCA's is a major cause of animal welfare problems here. There is no focus unlike with the RSPCA in the UK.

There is a lot of pet rescue fraud. Also abuse or ignorance IN rescues.

There are some I would have nothing to do with.

ILoveYourVibes

gozunda wrote: »

Reading what little there is on this issue - it would appear that currently that Irish dogs are being legally sold to the UK and from there had been exported to China

In a statement I found online - the IGB state they are "opposed to exports to countries that do not meet Ireland’s welfare standards and we would welcome legislation in this area, but this may be needed on a European level.”A spokesperson for the IGB added ‘These exports are not representative of the national greyhound sector" and suggest that those selling outside their remit.

That as maybe - It would also appear that on a national level the import and export of dogs including greyhounds remains legal with estimated figures of some 30,000 (pet) dogs also being breed here and exportrd annually.

Who knows what happens to any of them? I agree with you on this issue.

Really when you send a dog abroad you have no idea what is going to happen to it.

The IGB should be banned from exporting dogs at all.

gozunda

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Really when you send a dog abroad you have no idea what is going to happen to it.

The IGB should be banned from exporting dogs at all.

I agree that dogs should not be exported. Many appear to be sold to the UK to be raced there atm and sold on etc

I think what they are claiming is that they dont have control over individual sellers exporting dogs to the UK as it is currently not illegal on a national level to do so. UK seems to have even a greater problem with dogs going direct to China and elsewhere. Even if the EU steps in - with Brexit - this issue will continue from there

markodaly

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly wrote: »

Is anyone here boycotting Chinese made goods following the footage of that poor hound being boiled alive? Are any protests planned at the Chinese Embassy?

As always the whataboutery from the 'rural' community when it comes to these issues is astounding.
We see it time and time again, from issues with climate change, the Irish beef industry, and animal welfare and so on.

Anytime legitimate issues are brought up for discussion the knee jerk response is always something to the tune of 'well, what about China, or Brazilan beef, or Suadi Arabia terrorism, or Trump, or Putin or cyclists'

It's an attempt to distract and wave away legitimate issues with the topic at hand.
The topic at hand here at the moment is the wanton destruction and cruelty exhibited by people attached to the Greyhound industry, so perhaps we should focus the scope on the disccsion on that?

ILoveYourVibes

gozunda wrote: »

I agree that dogs should not be exported. Many appear to be sold to the UK to be raced there atm and sold on etc

I think what they are claiming is that they dont have control over individual sellers exporting dogs to the UK as it is currently not illegal on a national level to do so. UK seems to have even a greater problem with dogs going direct to China and elsewhere. Even if the EU steps in - with Brexit - this issue will continue from there

We need to make legislation for that. But at the same time make sure it doesn't lead to a sudden HUGE amount of dogs.

In reality its all about reducing the number of dogs bred.

Put a cap on it maybe.

ILoveYourVibes

markodaly wrote: »

Anytime legitimate issues are brought up for discussion the knee jerk response is always something to the tune of 'well, what about China, or Brazilan beef, or Suadi Arabia terrorism, or Trump, or Putin or cyclists'

It's an attempt to distract and wave away legitimate issues with the topic at hand.
The topic at hand here at the moment is the wanton destruction and cruelty exhibited by people attached to the Greyhound industry, so perhaps we should focus the scope on the disccsion on that?

I agree.

Graces7

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A poster asked a question. I answered it. End of.

You want more detailed information so I gave you the name of the woman who organises it and the rescue concerned.
You are free to go and ask her all the questions you want.
As I said to another poster I am not your personal researcher.

I am sticking to discussing the Irish Greyhound Industry and what happens in Ireland and not interested in your latest deflection tactic.

Thank you...

Igotadose

gozunda wrote: »

I agree that dogs should not be exported. Many appear to be sold to the UK to be raced there atm and sold on etc

Agreed, let's ban it. Phase it out over the next few years to avoid the shock of a large number of greyhounds suddenly needing homes (thousands). Government can provide some amount of facilities using money redirected from funding the IGB.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Another linky in case FB is deemed not 'proper'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-greyhounds-being-sold-puppy-14438715?fbclid=IwAR0gtb5UkSCI_fNksQvutb-I-RPtWBtvEq0Xqv6MbSmXToz3bope1mndISc

This is Droopy Dale's IGB entry: https://www.igb.ie/results/greyhound-search/greyhound-details/?gid=DROOPYS%20DALE

They can't even get the man's name right so the rest of their claims are suspect.

ILoveYourVibes

Igotadose wrote: »

Agreed, let's ban it. Phase it out over the next few years to avoid the shock of a large number of greyhounds suddenly needing homes (thousands). Government can provide some amount of facilities using money redirected from funding the IGB.

I don't think that will really happen. I just think people will forget this in a couple of days bar a few people.

Igotadose

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't think that will really happen. I just think people will forget this in a couple of days bar a few people.

gozunda and I are in favor of it. Are you? The more in favor of it, the more likely it will happen.

Personally just sent letters to all my TD's based on the form letter found on FB:
--
As one of your constituents, I am writing to you following the ‘RTE Investigates’ programme, which aired on 26 June 2019. This programmed highlighted several shockingly abusive and cruel practices currently happening in the state funded greyhound industry.
Key issues raised include; the abuse of dogs through use of performance enhancing drugs, the overbreeding of dogs which leads to excess numbers of animals being ‘culled’ or exported to unregulated and clearly very cruel dog markets in China. The programme reported that up to 6000 dogs are killed each year because they are not deemed fast enough to compete. Several knackeries were shown to charge anything from 10 euro upwards to illegally kill these dogs. The image of a dog writhing on the floor, after being shot with a bolt gun, as its owner waited for its collar to be returned, provided a shocking insight into the reality of how many of these animals experience the last moments of their lives. This is both illegal and inhumane. Equally shocking was the footage of the coursing event on Whiddy Island, which was unlicensed and illegal and clearly causing untold distress to hares in this area.

As my elected representative I am asking you to take action with urgency on the following:

1. Based on this report, consider an urgent Dáil review/question into the current state of animal welfare in greyhound racing and coursing.

2. A removal or freezing of any state funding until animal welfare can be guaranteed for greyhounds, in terms of breeding, kennel conditions, regulation of foreign exports and methods of euthanasia.

3. Using the Greyhound Act 2019 and the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 and related legislation, to enforce criminal sanctions against perpetrators of illegal activity in this industry.

I look forward to hearing to hearing your response.
Yours sincerely,
---

Discodog

markodaly wrote: »

As always the whataboutery from the 'rural' community when it comes to these issues is astounding.
We see it time and time again, from issues with climate change, the Irish beef industry, and animal welfare and so on.

Anytime legitimate issues are brought up for discussion the knee jerk response is always something to the tune of 'well, what about China, or Brazilan beef, or Suadi Arabia terrorism, or Trump, or Putin or cyclists'

It's an attempt to distract and wave away legitimate issues with the topic at hand.
The topic at hand here at the moment is the wanton destruction and cruelty exhibited by people attached to the Greyhound industry, so perhaps we should focus the scope on the disccsion on that?

You are so right. You will find exactly the same tactic, by the same posters on other animal welfare threads. Are you a Vegan is always one of the first.

There is a determined, vocal & influential group that are determined to continue cruel activities & justify them as sport.

ILoveYourVibes

Igotadose wrote: »

gozunda and I are in favor of it. Are you?
---

Yes of course. It's just it takes years and thousands of people march etc.

Plus so much money and interests etc.

I mean you could say sponsorship will be pulled etc. But they don't even need that money.

Igotadose

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes of course. It's just it takes years and thousands of people march etc.

Plus so much money and interests etc.

I mean you could say sponsorship will be pulled etc. But they don't even need that money.

O.K. then cut the taxpayer-funded subsidy, too. If they don't need it (and I pointed out a day or two ago the IGB are running a surplus as it is.)

uck51js9zml2yt

There's one thing in this whole debate on animal cruelty that disturbs me.

I'm not for one minute condoning it but the people crying (literally) over how a dog is being treated have no problem with a human baby being unwanted and aborted. No doubt I'll be told it's not a baby but that's a discussion for another thread.

I think it's the grossest hypocrisy and distortion of reality that ive seen in a long time...so much for societal progress.

dudara

Madisyn Clever Register wrote: »

There's one thing in this whole debate on animal cruelty.

I'm not for one minute condoning it but the people crying (literally) over how a dog is being treated have no problem with a human baby being unwanted and aborted. No doubt I'll be told it's not a baby but that's a discussion for another thread.

I think it's the grossest hypocrisy and distortion of reality that ive seen in a long time...so much for societal progress.

You’re right, it is a discussion for another thread. Stay on topic please.

dudara

ILoveYourVibes

Discodog wrote: »

You are so right. You will find exactly the same tactic, by the same posters on other animal welfare threads. Are you a Vegan is always one of the first.

There is a determined, vocal & influential group that are determined to continue cruel activities & justify them as sport.

Yeah there are people who think bloodsports etc are ok. Inc greyhound racing are ok.

I dont think it's an organized conspiracy etc. It's just their way.

Its just their thing they do.

There are people who think greyhound or racing under no circumstances should be allowed. That is their thing. I don't think they are organizing a conspiracy etc.

I don't think there is an agenda on either side.

Straffan1979

Igotadose wrote: »

gozunda and I are in favor of it. Are you? The more in favor of it, the more likely it will happen.

Personally just sent letters to all my TD's based on the form letter found on FB:
--
As one of your constituents, I am writing to you following the ‘RTE Investigates’ programme, which aired on 26 June 2019. This programmed highlighted several shockingly abusive and cruel practices currently happening in the state funded greyhound industry.
Key issues raised include; the abuse of dogs through use of performance enhancing drugs, the overbreeding of dogs which leads to excess numbers of animals being ‘culled’ or exported to unregulated and clearly very cruel dog markets in China. The programme reported that up to 6000 dogs are killed each year because they are not deemed fast enough to compete. Several knackeries were shown to charge anything from 10 euro upwards to illegally kill these dogs. The image of a dog writhing on the floor, after being shot with a bolt gun, as its owner waited for its collar to be returned, provided a shocking insight into the reality of how many of these animals experience the last moments of their lives. This is both illegal and inhumane. Equally shocking was the footage of the coursing event on Whiddy Island, which was unlicensed and illegal and clearly causing untold distress to hares in this area.

As my elected representative I am asking you to take action with urgency on the following:

1. Based on this report, consider an urgent Dáil review/question into the current state of animal welfare in greyhound racing and coursing.

2. A removal or freezing of any state funding until animal welfare can be guaranteed for greyhounds, in terms of breeding, kennel conditions, regulation of foreign exports and methods of euthanasia.

3. Using the Greyhound Act 2019 and the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 and related legislation, to enforce criminal sanctions against perpetrators of illegal activity in this industry.

I look forward to hearing to hearing your response.
Yours sincerely,
---

I would caution people against signing your names to letters that allege named individuals were engaged in illegal behavior when due process has not been followed by PTI;

i’ll reiterate that the emotive reporting tactics of the dogs in China etc etc used by PTI are great at stirring up shock & anger but the danger is people then lose the run of themselves and think they can then operate outside of the law- whether that be defamation law or the broadcasting acts etc

whether you’re anti blood sports or not both sides have to respect the basic civil liberties afforded to all citizens in the state; again I’m really surprised the legal Dept at RTE again was asleep at the wheel- or am I? ... (mission to prey comes to mind)

gozunda

Igotadose wrote: »

Agreed, let's ban it. Phase it out over the next few years to avoid the shock of a large number of greyhounds suddenly needing homes (thousands). Government can provide some amount of facilities using money redirected from funding the IGB.

Ban what? Racing? More of the ban ban ban philosophy Not a realistic solution at all. But hey keep banging the same drum.

xckjoo

Just want to say that MarinersBlues is the person in this thread coming across as balanced and rational and seems to know what they're talking about and has clearly thought it through before this documentary ever existed. Any later comers would do well to focus on what they said.



@MarinersBlues am I right that your take is that greyhound racing industry has become more of a greyhound breeding industry and that's at the core of the problem?

gozunda

markodaly wrote: »

As always the whataboutery from the 'rural' community when it comes to these issues is astounding.
We see it time and time again, from issues with climate change, the Irish beef industry, and animal welfare and so on. Anytime legitimate issues are brought up for discussion the knee jerk response is always something to the tune of 'well, what about China, or Brazilan beef, or Suadi Arabia terrorism, or Trump, or Putin or cyclists'

It's an attempt to distract and wave away legitimate issues with the topic at hand.
The topic at hand here at the moment is the wanton destruction and cruelty exhibited by people attached to the Greyhound industry, so perhaps we should focus the scope on the disccsion on that?

You see THIS is the problem right here. What is this continuous pushing of a bs urban / rural divide bolloxology that can only foster division and resentment on all sides?

Imo they only ones making a meal out of this type of thing are those looking to point the finger and scream 'blasphemers!' What is even more hilarious is to disagree is to be be labelled a 'troll' lol or that you are "attacking" whoever :rolleyes:

There are a huge variety of opinions on most of these topics which transcend any real or imaginary geographical border and thats a fact.

But yes I do agree - why the hell bring China etc into it? The ones bringing China and elsewhere was the RTE in order to sensationalise the whole issue with - 'oh well 'Irish' dogs are sent to China therefore 'Irish dogs' are been sent there to be eaten' with gratuitous imagery to boot. All to give good ratings...

Then we have some charities etc claiming lots is being done for these 'Irish' dogs' in China etc when in reality fek all is evidently being done by them and the whole thing is little more than an exercise to use this type of sensationalism to try and Ban everything.

I agree we need to get back on topic with this and ignore the evident "knee jerk" sensationalism which is evidently being promoted. .

batgoat

gozunda wrote: »

Ban what? Racing? More of the ban ban ban philosophy Not a realistic solution at all. But hey keep banging the same drum.

Why isn't it realistic? Or even simply shutdown the venues that are engaging in cruel treatment of animals.

gozunda

batgoat wrote: »

Why isn't it realistic? Or even simply shutdown the venues that are engaging in cruel treatment of animals.

There are those that do and viciously advocate for all pet ownership to be ended - they deem it cruelty. What you are calling 'cruel' ' do you actually mean illegal?

In the current discussion - Is it rogue individuals breaking national laws (or not breaking them eg where export is still permitted) or is it the the 'venues ' which are being cruel?

So apply that elsewhere- motorists illegally speeding and killing people? Close down all roads? Politicians taking bribes and corruption - shut down the government?

No banning is not a solution to issues of illegal behaviour. Prosecution and better laws are.

MarinersBlues

xckjoo wrote: »

Just want to say that MarinersBlues is the person in this thread coming across as balanced and rational and seems to know what they're talking about and has clearly thought it through before this documentary ever existed. Any later comers would do well to focus on what they said.

Thanks! :cool:
Your making me blush
I genuinley have been thinking about the overproduction of dogs for nearly 10 years.
I really want to get back into greyhounds but couldn't do it with the way it is set up at the moment.

xckjoo wrote: »

@MarinersBlues am I right that your take is that greyhound racing industry has become more of a greyhound breeding industry and that's at the core of the problem?

Pretty much.
They basically allowed it to become a numbers game.
Keep firing out pups until you win the derby and then cash in on the stud fee.
Like buying scratch cards for winning streak.
If the dog was no good sell it to England, but then that demand dried up when the English tracks started closing. (For me Seaham & online gambling are the root causes of that)

There is also the fact that the guys who attached to their dogs and want to keep them around and give them a chance to make a name for themselves.
If you have a bitch that you get fond of it's easy to breed her and keep the dream alive.

All of this can be remedied by having 100 ~ 150 licences for brood bitches, depending on how the maths works out and what the tracks need to keep the show on the road.
These can be bought and sold like off-licences or taxi licences of old.
Economics will ensure that the better breeding prospects are given a chance to breed, while there will be a predictable and managable greyhound population for the regulatory bodies.

It will make it a bit more expensive to buy a dog - because there will be less of them and they will cost more to produce, but this can be offset if the IGB guarantee to have a grade for every dog.
A lot of guys buy dogs for E400-E500 knowing there is a good chance they won't qualify, if you have a dog for E1500-E2000 that is guaranteed to run every couple of weeks and has a few euro already put aside for retirement. There will be alot more syndicates back in the game.
Thats when the sport will start to grow again.

I would expect this system to result in larger breeding centres where multiple broods will be kept in one yard. This would mean easier regulation as well.
There was talk of a limit of 3 litters for each brood bitch a couple of years ago. If that didn't come in I would introduce that and let the bitch retire then using her pension fund.

The problem here is measuring how many licences is optimum.
Estimate using rough numbers:
63 (the number of meetings a month) * 66 (dogs needed for a meeting) / 3.5 (length of dogs career) / 8 (average size of litter)= 150
Maybe closer to 100 as dogs typically run more than once a month on average.
If there is a demand for more meetings then up the licences & vice versa.
That will leave us with enough dogs for ourselves and no exporting & everyone is guranteed a few nights of fun with their dog.

QED