RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

xckjoo

jackboy wrote: »

50% would be 8 million euro. If new staff were hired and paid say 30,000 Euro per year each that would result in less than 300 staff. Roughly 10 staff per county, not nearly enough to make a significant impact. Remember they would need to cover 7 days a week, 365 days a year from dawn till dusk (and maybe after for lamping). A lot is being made of the 16 million but in truth it is a small amount of money.

Why would there need to be that level of coverage?

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn’t that money come from the off course betting levy?

So?

Discodog

jackboy wrote: »

Fair enough. I wasn't referring to you, rather some other posters who have used extreme language.

There is no doubt greyhound racing needs to be cleaned up a lot. However, a quick banning of the sport will not really improve animal welfare. Yes, after an initial large scale cull the amount of greyhounds killed every year would come way down. But the parts of the countryside protected by coursing clubs would then be open to the hunters who will come in and shoot everything on site (like in many areas of the country with no coursing clubs). Yes the goverment could hire people to protect these areas but that would involve setting up an organisation thousands of people strong which would cost a lot.

Then we ensure that the law stops them. The idea that Coursing clubs protect wildlife is ridiculous.

Bannasidhe

jackboy wrote: »

50% would be 8 million euro. If new staff were hired and paid say 30,000 Euro per year each that would result in less than 300 staff. Roughly 10 staff per county, not nearly enough to make a significant impact. Remember they would need to cover 7 days a week, 365 days a year from dawn till dusk (and maybe after for lamping). A lot is being made of the 16 million but in truth it is a small amount of money.

10 staff per county combined with custodial sentences and large fines would soon put a dent in it. Let's say minimum 2 years and €10,000 for first offence. Then double it for each subsequent offence. Seeing as you think it's a 24/7 problem a few convictions would pay for even more staff to be hired.

But I also didn't specify it was just the money ring-fenced for the IGB.

Pauliedragon

batgoat wrote: »

It's clearly not a minority if sponsors are withdrawing backing. They've concluded negative backlash is too large.

Spoke to a couple of lads today saying they won't be drinking Barry's tea anymore out of protest yet off to the golf they go which is sponsored by a government which treats humans a million times worse than the greyhounds. A lot of this is bandwagon keyboard nonsense.

Igotadose

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Spoke to a couple of lads today saying they won't be drinking Barry's tea anymore out of protest yet off to the golf they go which is sponsored by a government which treats humans a million times worse than the greyhounds. A lot of this is bandwagon keyboard nonsense.

There's no death penalty in Ireland.

jackboy

Discodog wrote: »

Then we ensure that the law stops them. The idea that Coursing clubs protect wildlife is ridiculous.

The coursing clubs keep the hunters off the land preserved for the coursing club. A lot of these hunters are indiscriminate and shoot all wildlife that they come across. So coursing clubs do protect wildlife.

It’s easy to say that we should ensure that the law stops the illegal hunters. But, there are no resources, no plan and almost no interest from the general public to do this.

Coursing could be banned. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Igotadose

jackboy wrote: »

This should be done but it would take massive new resources to catch the culprits.

A quick ban on live export of Greyhounds would go a long way. They can still be run in Ireland at the levels MarinersBlues mentioned. And by quick, maybe phased in over a few years.

Otherwise it's more delay, more unaccounted for dogs, more unscrupulous breed-for-export, more tragedies.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So?

Just saying. A fund funded by an activity is being used for said activity.

jackboy

Igotadose wrote: »

A quick ban on live export of Greyhounds would go a long way. They can still be run in Ireland at the levels MarinersBlues mentioned. And by quick, maybe phased in over a few years.

I would have no issue with this. It would not affect the small time guys who are in it for a hobby. It would target the industrial scale guys who are causing the bulk of the issues.

Also, actually punishing those with failed drugs tests would improve things quickly.

Muahahaha

whisky_galore wrote: »

I
The bad press I think will kill off racing, 'ordinary' people who would book groups for a bitta craic and a night at the dogs simply opting having their parties somewhere else. Big expensive plush venues empty or near empty. Interest was waning, now it's about to drop off a cliff.

Im hearing anecdotally that none of the big banks or MNCs in Dublin will be doing corporate outings to the dogs anymore, their employees just wont tolerate it.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The entire greyhound racing industry is immoral and utterly rotten to the core. I won’t be lamenting its inevitable demise.

Thing is it has already demised. Most trainers and breeders are getting on in age and there is little to no interest from younger generations. The only thing keeping it going right now is that €16m taxpayer funding, without it they would have already gone to the wall. The govt. needs to suspend their funding until they can prove their house is in order, just like what has happened to the FAI at the moment.

Bannasidhe

jackboy wrote: »

The coursing clubs keep the hunters off the land preserved for the coursing club. A lot of these hunters are indiscriminate and shoot all wildlife that they come across. So coursing clubs do protect wildlife.

It’s easy to say that we should ensure that the law stops the illegal hunters. But, there are no resources, no plan and almost no interest from the general public to do this.

Coursing could be banned. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

How do they do that?
The Coursing Clubs have no legal authority to arrest anyone.
They don't actually have any legal way of preventing anything.

Do they sue for trespass?
Any landowner can do that.

Let's stop funding gambling industries and then we can fund resources.

Any for lack of 'public will' - sure aren't the public being told how hunting/coursing etc is all part of rural life and how are they supposed to know if it's legally being done or not?

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Just saying. A fund funded by an activity is being used for said activity.

Like how motor tax funds the upkeep of our roads?... oh, wait... it doesn't. It goes to pay for other things like water.

Ok - so like how LPT is used to fund things in the local community like roads and libraries and... oh, hang on... doesn't it all go into a big pot and Government divies it out to what ever it wants to...

Maybe the Universal Social Charge is used to fund things with a social theme. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Nah, it's just an other tax.

It's a tax on gambling. A tax on gambling that goes straight back to the gambling industry. Nice perk if you can get it.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How do they do that?
The Coursing Clubs have no legal authority to arrest anyone.
They don't actually have any legal way of preventing anything.

Do they sue for trespass?
Any landowner can do that.

Let's stop funding gambling industries and then we can fund resources.

Any for lack of 'public will' - sure aren't the public being told how hunting/coursing etc is all part of rural life and how are they supposed to know if it's legally being done or not?

I’m assuming that by “gambling industries” you mean horse and greyhound industries. As pointed out already, they are funded by a levy on off course gambling. ie they’re paying for themselves.

As for illegal coursing, any country dweller knows the difference between a legal meet and chancers hunting illegally.

The following is copied from a pamphlet published by the Irish Coursing Club

FARMERS, KNOW THE FACTS
It is important for farmers to know that the Irish Hare is protected by National legislation and can only be hunted or pursued under two circumstances
1 At regulated coursing meetings run by clubs affiliated to the Irish Coursing Club from September 26 to February 28 annually.
2 By packs of Beagles and Harriers from September 26 to February 28 annually.
Any activity other than the above is illegal and should be reported to the Garda Station in your area.

jackboy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How do they do that?
The Coursing Clubs have no legal authority to arrest anyone.
They don't actually have any legal way of preventing anything.

Do they sue for trespass?
Any landowner can do that.

They don’t arrest and they don’t sue. They move the illegal hunters on from the preserved lands. This does happen and it does work a lot of the time.

Pauliedragon

Igotadose wrote: »

There's no death penalty in Ireland.

But there is in the UAE who sponsers the golf. Check out their human rights record.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m assuming that by “gambling industries” you mean horse and greyhound industries. As pointed out already, they are funded by a levy on off course gambling. ie they’re paying for themselves.

As for illegal coursing, any country dweller knows the difference between a legal meet and chancers hunting illegally.

The following is copied from a pamphlet published by the Irish Coursing Club

FARMERS, KNOW THE FACTS
It is important for farmers to know that the Irish Hare is protected by National legislation and can only be hunted or pursued under two circumstances
1 At regulated coursing meetings run by clubs affiliated to the Irish Coursing Club from September 26 to February 28 annually.
2 By packs of Beagles and Harriers from September 26 to February 28 annually.
Any activity other than the above is illegal and should be reported to the Garda Station in your area.

As I said - motor tax is a levy paid by road users but it's not used to pay for road maintenance so there is no reason why a tax on the gambling industry should be ring-fenced for the gambling industry.
It doesn't happen with any other tax or any other sector. Why should gambling be given such a special status?

And Greyhound racing isn't paying for 'itself'- even with the massive hand out from government, related fees, sponsorship etc it's in the red. It is not sustainable. It is being bailed out every single year when there are far more deserving areas that money could be used.

The poster I was responding to said there isn't "public interest" in stopping illegal hunting/coursing. With respect, the vast majority of the Irish public are urban dwellers and do not know the difference between legal or illegal or the fine print used to justify when it is ok to terrorise a hare and when it isn't.

Bannasidhe

jackboy wrote: »

They don’t arrest and they don’t sue. They move the illegal hunters on from the preserved lands. This does happen and it does work a lot of the time.

Are they there 24/7 as you said is needed? If not how can they monitor the lands they have licences for?

They don't arrest because they cannot arrest.

'Move the illegal hunters on' - how exactly? Sound a bit...illegal in a strong-arm possibly assault kind of way tbh.
Do they call the guards? Who can legally move people on And arrest them?

We might see some convictions if the proper authorities were informed rather than a 'club' with no legal authority to 'move people on' taking the law into their own hands.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As I said - motor tax is a levy paid by road users but it's not used to pay for road maintenance so there is no reason why a tax on the gambling industry should be ring-fenced for the gambling industry.
It doesn't happen with any other tax or any other sector. Why should gambling be given such a special status?

And Greyhound racing isn't paying for 'itself'- even with the massive hand out from government, related fees, sponsorship etc it's in the red. It is not sustainable. It is being bailed out every single year when there are far more deserving areas that money could be used.

The poster I was responding to said there isn't "public interest" in stopping illegal hunting/coursing. With respect, the vast majority of the Irish public are urban dwellers and do not know the difference between legal or illegal or the fine print used to justify when it is ok to terrorise a hare and when it isn't.

Once again, it’s being funded by a levy on betting which is ringfenced in law for horse and greyhound racing.

So, what about the €300,000,000 value to local economies from the greyhound industry?

So, it’s ok to leave the hare to succumb to the various diseases that treatments provided by the Coursing Clubs protects them from through their vaccination programs?

jackboy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are they there 24/7 as you said is needed? If not how can they monitor the lands they have licences for?

They don't arrest because they cannot arrest.

'Move the illegal hunters on' - how exactly? Sound a bit...illegal in a strong-arm possibly assault kind of way tbh.
Do they call the guards? Who can legally move people on And arrest them?

We might see some convictions if the proper authorities were informed rather than a 'club' with no legal authority to 'move people on' taking the law into their own hands.

They are there 24/7 as they live there.

They call the guards who very often do little if anything (maybe because of lack of resources). They don’t assault the hunters but when they turn up in the middle of the hunt and ask them to leave (as they are entitled to) the hunt is disrupted so they generally move on.

No other resources exist in Ireland to take such action.

puppieperson1

change the status of greyhounds to dogs instead of livestock, then they would have to be chipped and registered and if a carcass was found the owner could be identified and prosecuted, while they are livestock they are not protected at all. thats the first step and then outlaw exports outside of ireland then there is a chance to regulate it .

puppieperson1

puppieperson1 wrote: »

change the status of greyhounds to dogs instead of livestock, then they would have to be chipped and registered and if a carcass was found the owner could be identified and prosecuted, while they are livestock they are not protected at all. thats the first step and then outlaw exports outside of ireland then there is a chance to regulate it .

Greyhounds have 3 methods of identity. When a bitch and stud dog are first used they are DNA tested.
At 12 weeks of age ALL pups have a unique number tattooed into their ears AND they are microchipped.

puppieperson1

yes i am aware of the tatoos thats why their ears are cut off in limerick before they are shot in a bog hole. 18 found in 1 huge grave all de eared.

puppieperson1

puppieperson1 wrote: »

yes i am aware of the tatoos thats why their ears are cut off in limerick before they are shot in a bog hole. 18 found in 1 huge grave all de eared.

Really? When was this? DNA testing has been done for at least 10 years. Microchipping since 2015.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? When was this? DNA testing has been done for at least 10 years. Microchipping since 2015.

If you look at the FB page of Cottage Rescue they have posted photographs of just some of the greyhounds they have taken into their care who suffered various attempts to destroy any marks of identification.
Each time they reported it to the IGB. Each time they heard nothing. But still it was the Rescue who cared for the dogs.

This is just one example https://www.facebook.com/cottagerescue/photos/a.402354467200/10156524648307201/?type=3&theater

That's just one rescue. The other's have similar dogs.

Bannasidhe

jackboy wrote: »

They are there 24/7 as they live there.

They call the guards who very often do little if anything (maybe because of lack of resources). They don’t assault the hunters but when they turn up in the middle of the hunt and ask them to leave (as they are entitled to) the hunt is disrupted so they generally move on.

No other resources exist in Ireland to take such action.

That's some surveillance systems they have that they can monitor every field 24/7.

You make it all sound so nice. Illegal hunters asked to leave so they say ok.
I find that hard to believe tbh.

There are other resources - they are chronically underfunded.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you look at the FB page of Cottage Rescue they have posted photographs of just some of the greyhounds they have taken into their care who suffered various attempts to destroy any marks of identification.
Each time they reported it to the IGB. Each time they heard nothing. But still it was the Rescue who cared for the dogs.

This is just one example https://www.facebook.com/cottagerescue/photos/a.402354467200/10156524648307201/?type=3&theater

That's just one rescue. The other's have similar dogs.

Again, I ask, when did this happen? The fact that the dogs weren’t microchipped would suggest that the photos are more than 4 years old. If the IGB did nothing, what about the Gardai? It’s not unusual for rescues to use the photos that will gain most sympathy and hopefully an increase in donations. Or maybe I’m just cynical about the claims.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Once again, it’s being funded by a levy on betting which is ringfenced in law for horse and greyhound racing.

So, what about the €300,000,000 value to local economies from the greyhound industry?

So, it’s ok to leave the hare to succumb to the various diseases that treatments provided by the Coursing Clubs protects them from through their vaccination programs?

And with a stroke of a pen it can be unringfenced. There is absolutely no justification for why the greyhound industry should enjoy special status.

You keep mentioning this figure of how much greyhound racing contributes - strange then that it's in the red with falling attendances adding to it's woes. People are staying away in droves.

How much does rugby add to the local economies I wonder? Yet, it doesn't have ring fenced funding - I mean, people can even bet on it if they want.

Funny how there are hares surviving on lands not 'managed' by coursing clubs - I was looking at one out my window just an hour ago happily sunning itself in the field across from my house. I see them all the time. Fine, healthy unchased by greyhounds hares. Way coursing clubs talk you'd think there isn't a healthy hare in the county apart from the ones they 'mind'.

mikeym

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Spoke to a couple of lads today saying they won't be drinking Barry's tea anymore out of protest yet off to the golf they go which is sponsored by a government which treats humans a million times worse than the greyhounds. A lot of this is bandwagon keyboard nonsense.

Its ok to drink Barrys tea they pulled the plug on the greyhound sponsorship.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I ask, when did this happen? The fact that the dogs weren’t microchipped would suggest that the photos are more than 4 years old. If the IGB did nothing, what about the Gardai? It’s not unusual for rescues to use the photos that will gain most sympathy and hopefully an increase in donations. Or maybe I’m just cynical about the claims.

Next you will be claiming the rescues 'set-up' the photos,

The fact remains that some greyhound owners goto a great deal of trouble to destroy not just the dogs - but any way the dogs can be identified.

That is 100% down to the owners. Rescue's are left to pick up the pieces on a shoe string budget. And yes- they do highlight what is going on - and then they highlight the same dogs in good homes where they are loved pets.