RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

So, what are the breeding numbers today? Does the IGB have them and are they available publically? Their own numbers I commented on from their report show 2750 litters per year. How many is that? (as I recall you didn't comment on the numbers I gave you then.)


And, illegal coursing still happens, does it not?

I don’t have the figures to hand but the ICC would let you have them. As already pointed out, the report worked from figures from the mid 00’s, that figure has halved since. (ICC are the keepers of the greyhound stud book for the island of Ireland)

Illegal coursing never happens. Coursing is legal, regulated and licensed. Anything else is illegal hunting.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t have the figures to hand but the ICC would let you have them. As already pointed out, the report worked from figures from the mid 00’s, that figure has halved since. (ICC are the keepers of the greyhound stud book for the island of Ireland)

Illegal coursing never happens. Coursing is legal, regulated and licensed. Anything else is illegal hunting.

The report published by the IGB shows projected 2750 litters per year. That's easily 10000 puppies per year. Does the industry need that many? And, what percentage of them, make it to the track? By report, I don't mean the documentary. I mean this: https://www.igb.ie/About-IGB/news/the-economic-and-financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry/

As it states on page 18, there were 3200 matings (2016 data) resulting in 14000 pups in support of (what appears to be) 1600 race meetings per year. That surely seems like a vast oversupply of pups, as the dogs in the race are what, 2 or 3 years old? So, if it's 3 years worth of matings to support 1600 races, thats (14,000 times 3) something like 52000 pups being born in order to support the annual races.

Doesn't that seem excessive? And where are all the excess pups? I daresay they're with the rehoming people. They're at the knackery, or sent overseas.

Coursing should be banned imo. It's just a bloodsport for old wealthy tossers from what I've learned. If you want to hunt, go hunt. Don't torture a poor hare. I mean, really, is it actually entertainment? Or is your coursing participant just too old and fat to get out in the field.

And, as important as it is to discuss, it's a distraction from the bigger issue of overbreeding.

What do you think about ending live export of greyhounds?

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

The report published by the IGB shows projected 2750 litters per year. That's easily 10000 puppies per year. Does the industry need that many? And, what percentage of them, make it to the track? By report, I don't mean the documentary. I mean this: https://www.igb.ie/About-IGB/news/the-economic-and-financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry/

As it states on page 18, there were 3200 matings (2016 data) resulting in 14000 pups in support of (what appears to be) 1600 race meetings per year. That surely seems like a vast oversupply of pups, as the dogs in the race are what, 2 or 3 years old? So, if it's 3 years worth of matings to support 1600 races, thats (14,000 times 3) something like 52000 pups being born in order to support the annual races.

Doesn't that seem excessive? And where are all the excess pups? I daresay they're with the rehoming people. They're at the knackery, or sent overseas.

Coursing should be banned imo. It's just a bloodsport for old wealthy tossers from what I've learned. If you want to hunt, go hunt. Don't torture a poor hare. I mean, really, is it actually entertainment? Or is your coursing participant just too old and fat to get out in the field.

And, as important as it is to discuss, it's a distraction from the bigger issue of overbreeding.

What do you think about ending live export of greyhounds?

Once again the figures that report and you are working from are wrong. As already explained, those figures were from the height of the Celtic Tiger and were double what the actual figures are now. There is no overbreeding at the moment.
I suggest that if you didn’t watch last nights Oireachtas committee meeting where both IGB and ICC appeared, then you can watch back here. It’s about 3 hours long but will explain the situation much better than I can. DJ Histon of ICC gives figures in his presentation towards the end of the meeting.

It’s not online yet, but should be available later today here. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/video-archive/committees/

The export of live greyhounds has always been a factor of the greyhound industry. I see nothing wrong with it once the dogs are transported in suitable vehicles with proper breaks. English greyhounds travel to Ireland to compete same as Irish dogs compete in England. This years English Derby saw Irish trained dogs fill the first three places. There was good natured Anglo Irish rivalry!

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There was NO illegal coursing shown in that program. The coursing on Whiddy Island was a legal Open coursing meet.

Illegal hunting with any dogs isn’t the fault of greyhound owners.

The breeding figures used in the report, which RTÉ based their research on were faulty. They were based on breeding numbers from the height of the Celtic Tiger, which I’m sure you’re glad to hear, have halved since, leading to the erroneous claim that 6,000 greyhounds are culled every year.

For a legal meet, no one involved wanted to chat to RTE about their presence there.
Fancy that.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

For a legal meet, no one involved wanted to chat to RTE about their presence there.
Fancy that.

RTÉ didn’t want to hear the truth! They were out to do a hatchet job.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Once again the figures that report and you are working from are wrong. As already explained, those figures were from the height of the Celtic Tiger and were double what the actual figures are now. There is no overbreeding at the moment.

The math still doesn't support your position that the figures are 'wrong.' The 14000 pups born *in 2016* are 3 years old now in 2019. That 14000 are 'around' since 2016 and presumably raced in 2017 and 2018. Likewise, some unknown number of pups was born in 2017 and 2018. How many? Who knows? Did the number of breedings drop from the 3200 in 2016 drop to zero?

What would you suggest the number of breedings was in 2017? 2000? 1000? Zero? Of course not. Let's say it was 2000. Based on the 4+ pups per breeding in 2016, that's still around 8000 pups in 2017. Maybe 7000 in 2018.

So, where are all the pups? Being sent to the knackery is my guess, or shipped out to whoever will take them, maybe even eventually Pakistan and China.

I suggest that if you didn’t watch last nights Oireachtas committee meeting where both IGB and ICC appeared, then you can watch back here. It’s about 3 hours long but will explain the situation much better than I can. DJ Histon of ICC gives figures in his presentation towards the end of the meeting.

It’s not online yet, but should be available later today here. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/video-archive/committees/

The export of live greyhounds has always been a factor of the greyhound industry. I see nothing wrong with it once the dogs are transported in suitable vehicles with proper breaks. English greyhounds travel to Ireland to compete same as Irish dogs compete in England. This years English Derby saw Irish trained dogs fill the first three places. There was good natured Anglo Irish rivalry!

If stopped, the overbreeding will stop as the local industry is small enough and shrinking. Once its no longer viable (or legal) to export, the industry can begin to be taken seriously as to whether it wants reform or not. By its actions to date, reform is furthest from its plans. Life is too good for the big breeders being subsidized by the taxpayer.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

RTÉ didn’t want to hear the truth! They were out to do a hatchet job.

And thank God they did! Best job they’ve done in a very long time !

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And thank God they did! Best job they’ve done in a very long time !

Yes. A great fairy tale.

two wheels good

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t have the figures to hand but the ICC would let you have them. As already pointed out, the report worked from figures from the mid 00’s, that figure has halved since. (ICC are the keepers of the greyhound stud book for the island of Ireland)

Illegal coursing never happens. Coursing is legal, regulated and licensed. Anything else is illegal hunting.

Talk about splitting hares!
So an "informal" gathering of dog owners where two greyhounds unmuzzled chase a hare is not illegal coursing, it's illegal hunting.
The same dogs and owners at a legal event will be coursing - of course!

donkeykong5

Deleted User wrote: »

whisky_galore wrote: »

For a legal meet, no one involved wanted to chat to RTE about their presence there.
Fancy that.

RTÉ didn’t want to hear the truth! They were out to do a hatchet job.

Thank God for rte investigates programme. Letting the whole country see the horrific life of an innocent greyhound. Thanks to rte the sponsorship has stopped by Barry's piss tea company. Need to get on to rose of tralee organisation next.

Bannasidhe

Another sponsor gone. Applegreen has announced it will no longer sponsor greyhound racing.

https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/talking-dogs/bord-na-gcon-address.pdf

Address to Oireachtas Committee last night.

xckjoo

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/talking-dogs/bord-na-gcon-address.pdf

Address to Oireachtas Committee last night.

A few issues jump out at me, but the most glaring seems to be that they're only talking about end-of-life stages for the greyhounds. No mention of tackling the overbreeding that comes with it and that was identified by another poster as the biggest issue with the industry

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/talking-dogs/bord-na-gcon-address.pdf

Address to Oireachtas Committee last night.

From that speech: "1,021 rehomings were achieved in 2018"

Seems pretty slight when, in 2016, 14,000 pups were born.
Then there was this bit:
" This
does not take into account the overall spend of the IGB on regulation and welfare
matters which will be just short of €2 million in 2019"

(talking about the Retired Greyhounds Trust.)

Unfortunately, 'regulation and welfare matters' can mean anything. I doubt 2million was spent on rehoming dogs. More likely regulation is 'are they track ready' and welfare matters same. But, it's not itemized.



Barely any mention of coursing in the speech. I guess everything's grand there, great sport, good for the economy, yadda yadda. Really that barbarity should be banned. Go hunt if you want, don't live vicariously through your dog.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

From that speech: "1,021 rehomings were achieved in 2018"

Seems pretty slight when, in 2016, 14,000 pups were born.
Then there was this bit:
" This
does not take into account the overall spend of the IGB on regulation and welfare
matters which will be just short of €2 million in 2019"

(talking about the Retired Greyhounds Trust.)

Unfortunately, 'regulation and welfare matters' can mean anything. I doubt 2million was spent on rehoming dogs. More likely regulation is 'are they track ready' and welfare matters same. But, it's not itemized.



Barely any mention of coursing in the speech. I guess everything's grand there, great sport, good for the economy, yadda yadda. Really that barbarity should be banned. Go hunt if you want, don't live vicariously through your dog.

I’m assuming that you’ve got a reliable source for those numbers?

Most greyhounds bred in Ireland are owned by English owners or are bought by them. Many are kept either for breeding or as pets by owners.

Coursing was covered at the end by ICC CEO, DJ Histon. He gives details of greyhounds bred and how many are sold or are coursing. I’ll post it when I get a copy.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m assuming that you’ve got a reliable source for those numbers?

Most greyhounds bred in Ireland are owned by English owners or are bought by them. Many are kept either for breeding or as pets by owners.

Coursing was covered at the end by ICC CEO, DJ Histon. He gives details of greyhounds bred and how many are sold or are coursing. I’ll post it when I get a copy.

The numbers I quote come from the IGB: https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/power-report-2018/power-report---the-economic--financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry---november-2017.pdf


Data are from 2016 (14000 pups, 3216 breedings), Table 2, page 18


This is the report that came up with the '300 million euro' impact number, which I think is a bunch of malarkey, the number assumes everyone involved with greyhounds immediately stops contributing to the economy if greyhound racing ceases. Nonsense. They find other work. Some percentage is lost.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

The numbers I quote come from the IGB: https://www.igb.ie/globalassets/power-report-2018/power-report---the-economic--financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry---november-2017.pdf


Data are from 2016 (14000 pups, 3216 breedings), Table 2, page 18


This is the report that came up with the '300 million euro' impact number, which I think is a bunch of malarkey, the number assumes everyone involved with greyhounds immediately stops contributing to the economy if greyhound racing ceases. Nonsense. They find other work. Some percentage is lost.

Those figures are not correct, as I’m sure that you know by now. They were guesstimates based on 2009 figures which would have been around that. That’s the main reason that the report was not published. However, breeding has declined due to the demise of the Celtic Tiger. I have pointed this out numerous times.

Choc Chip

Deleted User wrote: »

Those figures are not correct, as I’m sure that you know by now. They were guesstimates based on 2009 figures which would have been around that. That’s the main reason that the report was not published. However, breeding has declined due to the demise of the Celtic Tiger. I have pointed this out numerous times.

You've said that it has declined but you've yet to provide any figures to support that. I've asked the ICC for figures but until we get them, all we can do do is work with the figures that we have.

I do thank you for putting up the links to the most recent discussions/reports.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. A great fairy tale.

It's simply impossible to believe that you have the slightest regard for Greyhounds when you use language like that.

Discodog

Choc Chip wrote: »

You've said that it has declined but you've yet to provide any figures to support that. I've asked the ICC for figures but until we get them, all we can do do is work with the figures that we have.

I do thank you for putting up the links to the most recent discussions/reports.

Why aren't all the figures on a publicly accessible database ?

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Those figures are not correct, as I’m sure that you know by now. They were guesstimates based on 2009 figures which would have been around that. That’s the main reason that the report was not published. However, breeding has declined due to the demise of the Celtic Tiger. I have pointed this out numerous times.

How do we know they're not correct? The IGB published them. *I* didn't make them up. Are you saying the IGB have another set of numbers somewhere that are more correct? The numbers in that report, are based on 2016 (page 18 again.) Not '2009'. Not 'numbers from the Tiger.' 2016 numbers. Are you saying they're false?

So, what are the numbers? I'm actually not joking here, I really do want to know what the true numbers are, I would've thought a report published by the IGB on their website would be legitimate. Are you saying it isn't or they're estimates or something else? Have you got other numbers?

Discodog

Igotadose wrote: »

How do we know they're not correct? The IGB published them. *I* didn't make them up. Are you saying the IGB have another set of numbers somewhere that are more correct? The numbers in that report, are based on 2016 (page 18 again.) Not '2009'. Not 'numbers from the Tiger.' 2016 numbers. Are you saying they're false?

So, what are the numbers? I'm actually not joking here, I really do want to know what the true numbers are, I would've thought a report published by the IGB on their website would be legitimate. Are you saying it isn't or they're estimates or something else? Have you got other numbers?

They have no idea of the numbers because many dogs never get registered, change of ownerships aren't registered etc.

You can some information & the views of owners etc here:

http://www.greyhound-data.com/

Igotadose

Discodog wrote: »

They have no idea of the numbers because many dogs never get registered, change of ownerships aren't registered etc.

You can some information & the views of owners etc here:

http://www.greyhound-data.com/

I'm more concerned with Maryanne84's statement that those numbers are false. They come from the IGB. Are we to simply ignore them on Maryanne84's say-so? Anecdotes aren't data, IGB paid some firm to gather the data and the number of breedings, at least, seems correct. Which yields the 14,000 pups in 2016 number, which I believe is legitimate.

Maryanne84's insinuating the number is much less, but has yet to provide anything to back that up. She posted '10,000 jobs directly benefiting' earlier and had to retract it based on the numbers from this report.

So, in short, I think barring some other source Maryanne84 can point to, the number of pups born in 2016 was 14,000 and we can extrapolate what's going on with the greyhound industry since then:

1. Massive exporting
2. Massive slaughtering
3. Probably very few, those who are good with (1) and (2) profiting, the rest being used as a smokescreen of 'auld lads with a few dogs' to keep the public from getting up in arms completely. Thank goodness for the RTE report.

But, unless there are other data forthcoming, I believe I've proven the number beyond a shadow of a doubt. 14,000 pups in 2016. So many born so that a few people can make a little bit of money. Even in the grand scheme of things, 16 million euro a year is noise in the Irish economy, and the 300 million number is a fiction. If it's closer to the 100 million I calculated earlier (based, again, on the RTE report), that's about 7,000 per pup

This is just straightforward arithmetic.

gozunda

Discodog wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/feb/16/ukcrime.animalwelfare
I quoted this earlier but maybe you just ignored it. When the carcasses were uncovered there was evidence that many were Irish dogs.
Yes I have been spouting, as you put it, for decades. I have read dozens of reports by organisations like the RSPCA - but they are extremists to you. RTE were very late to the game & exposed nothing new. Yes I totally oppose racing because I know there is no way to produce enough dogs to race without thousands of unwanted dogs - it's simple genetics.

Dafuq? So an incident dated from 2007 and which happened in another country under a different jurisdiction has what exactly to banning greyhound racing in Ireland now? Perhaps you should be campaigning in England where the RSPCA actually exists? And no I didnt say they were 'extremists' btw - other people have shown that to be the case...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/animal-rights-hardliners-put-rspca-at-risk-pp0db2h839m

Btw It's dated before the introduction of micro chipping - and I see no mention of 'Irish dogs' in that article

Given that is a possibility - how exactly could any Irish owner selling young greyhounds to the UK - know of that particular incident or goings on ? Or are you simply using such stuff to beat the samd old?

No it's not 'genetics' - it's simply too many dogs. We have already discussed this in thread- and there have been many good solutions offered. But hey no let's ignore that and dig up ****e to keep on thrashing all and sundry with! Very well done ...

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Dafuq? So an incident dated from 2007 and which happened in another country under a different jurisdiction has what exactly to banning greyhound racing in Ireland now? Perhaps you should be campaigning in England where the RSPCA actually exists? And no I didnt say they were 'extremists' btw - other people have shown that to be the case...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/animal-rights-hardliners-put-rspca-at-risk-pp0db2h839m

Btw It's dated before the introduction of micro chipping - and I see no mention of 'Irish dogs' in that article

Given that is a possibility - how exactly could any Irish owner selling young greyhounds to the UK - know of that particular incident or goings on ? Or are you simply using such stuff to beat the samd old?

No it's not 'genetics' - it's simply too many dogs. We have already discussed this in thread- and there have been many good solutions offered. But hey no let's ignore that and dig up ****e to keep on thrashing all and sundry with! Very well done ...

You never answer questions but let's try this one.

What percentage of puppies in litter are likely to become good racers ?

Igotadose

Discodog wrote: »

You never answer questions but let's try this one.

What percentage of puppies in litter are likely to become good racers ?

FWIW Gozunda has said he favors ending live export of greyhounds. I think that's a good idea. I'm patient enough to say 'not overnight' but maybe over 3 year period.

MarinersBlues has suggested similarly and given what seem like reasonable numbers to be bred and used for racing, using a fairly high barrier to entry.

Full disclosure: I'm not an animal rights activist. Nor am I a dog owner currently, living situation won't allow for it. And I've never been to a greyhound or horse race in Ireland nor do I have any intentions of doing so, I'm very anti-gambling in any form (don't even buy raffle or lottery tickets, I think gambling's a good way to ruin your life.) So, I can definitely understand if the animal rights activists on the front line of saving dogs from the horrific abuses seen in the documentary are more activist. More power to you.

gozunda

Discodog wrote: »

You never answer questions but let's try this one.
What percentage of puppies in litter are likely to become good racers ?

Lol. What questions? The last question asked of you was a question regarding dog ownership and cruelty and you spectacularly failed to answer that. So get with the discussion or get out.

Seriously is that your reply as to the use of out of date and bs articles to beat people here with? Is that's as good as it gets is it? Wow...

When you have answered the questions I have put to you previously and which remain unanswered get back to me. Thanks.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Lol. What questions? The last question asked of you was a question regarding pet ownership and cruelty and you spectacularly failed to answer that. So get with the discussion or get out.

Seriously is that your reply to use out of date and bs articles to beat people here with? Is that's as good as it gets is it? Wow...

When you have answered the questions I have put to you previously and which remain unanswered get back to me. Thanks.

You know full well that I don't consider dog ownership to be cruel - I have always had dogs.

BS Article ? A man was convicted of killing & burying 10,000 Greyhounds.

Your turn

gozunda

Discodog wrote: »

You know full well that I don't consider dog ownership to be cruel - I have always had dogs.
BS Article ? A man was convicted of killing & burying 10,000 Greyhounds.Your turn

Why wouldn't you answer that question then and instead made a huge song and dance about it and others? What is the issue you have generally refusing to answer questions and then accusing others of doing what you are guilty of?

As well I'd suggest you go read the question again in context and come back with a reasoned answer.

Dont think he was found guilty of illegally killing anything btw

The article detailed that Mr Smith in Co Durham in the UK

Mr Smith was questioned by police, but it was confirmed the bolt gun used to kill the retired greyhounds was held legitimately. After its own enquiries, the RSPCA concluded there was no indication animal cruelty laws had been broken because the dogs had been killed humanely.

Afaik the guy was found guilty of a charge regarding dumping under waste regulations

What's intersting is that despite all these dogs being killed - the RSPCA or others were not able to ban racing in the UK. Why was that?

Btw - I have no figures regarding how many dogs are involved in racing or otherwise. I'm not involved in greyhound racing or any other activity to do with same. But what I dont like is rubbish like your comment been used to beat all and sundry over a decade later and in a different country. I mean seriously wtf?

CiarraiAbu2

Just a matter of interest, is there many posters here who want Horse racing banned as well or just greyhounds.