RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

Can you give the figures ?

The Oireachtas transcript contains all you need. I would have thought that you would have watched it live.

“At the moment, there are 3,600 greyhounds in the country. In 2018, there were 2,344 litters. We send about 6,500 greyhounds to England every year.
There are about 2,000 greyhounds coursing. Those are the current figures.
On the question on the disciplinary steward, I do not know the answer. It is an executive function but I will find out for the Senator. I would not have disagreed with the Senator in that I would have believed we should have our full regulatory team in place now.
With regard to current reporting methods, there is a statutory requirement on people to report life events with greyhounds but there is no proper method of detecting whether they have done it. Generally, by the time it is established that they have not, it is too late to prosecute them. The current regime does not work in that respect. Quite a few of the on-the-spot fines handed out by our stewards are for failures to report the change of ownership of a greyhound, for example. They are not being issued often enough and they are not large enough to” https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/2019-07-09/7/

Many dogs are treated badly by humans every year. Greyhounds are probably treated better than most.

The only way to avoid mistreatment is simply to make it illegal for anyone to own a dog.

Or at the very least, you need a license that requires you to jump through a lot of hoops to get and keep. That might get rid of the half arsed owners that are more likely to mistreat pets.

Igotadose

How many pups per litter? I'd read somewhere the average was 4. So, given the 2344 litters, 4 pups per, that's 9200 roughly pups. 6500 exported per year is surplus 3700/year, of which 2000 race. Now, that's 1700 per year surplus pups (assuming my guestimate of 4 is correct.) *However*, I don't believe it's 1 year and done with the dog, so assuming Dogs race from age of 2 to 3, that's 3 years surplus dogs per year (around 5100), since dogs'll race up to the age of 3

. Are they re-homed? And, assuming 2000 retire per year, that's another 2000 surplus per year, a grand total of about 7100 I think.

So, even with exporting 6500 year, there's many pups still unaccounted for after retirement.

If dogs race past the age of 3, it's even worse. I just pulled 3 out of the air, assuming it's something like horses. Up to what age does a dog race?

Oh, and what happens to the injured dogs that recover but can no longer race?

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Many dogs are treated badly by humans every year. Greyhounds are probably treated better than most.

The only way to avoid mistreatment is simply to make it illegal for anyone to own a dog.

Or at the very least, you need a license that requires you to jump through a lot of hoops to get and keep. That might get rid of the half arsed owners that are more likely to mistreat pets.

Perhaps if Greyhounds weren't specially categorized as, essentially, farm animals, licenses could be mandated and enforced.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

How many pups per litter? I'd read somewhere the average was 4. So, given the 2344 litters, 4 pups per, that's 9200 roughly pups. 6500 exported per year is surplus 3700/year, of which 2000 race. Now, that's 1700 per year surplus pups (assuming my guestimate of 4 is correct.) *However*, I don't believe it's 1 year and done with the dog, so assuming Dogs race from age of 2 to 3, that's 3 years surplus dogs per year (around 5100), since dogs'll race up to the age of 3

. Are they re-homed? And, assuming 2000 retire per year, that's another 2000 surplus per year, a grand total of about 7100 I think.

So, even with exporting 6500 year, there's many pups still unaccounted for after retirement.

If dogs race past the age of 3, it's even worse. I just pulled 3 out of the air, assuming it's something like horses. Up to what age does a dog race?

Oh, and what happens to the injured dogs that recover but can no longer race?

You missed the 3,600 in the racing pool. The 2,000 are coursing dogs.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

You missed the 3,600 in the racing pool. The 2,000 are coursing dogs.

What's the average litter size and how long does a dog race for?

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

What's the average litter size and how long does a dog race for?

In my experience, 5 would be the average size litter of live pups. Some are born dead and others unfortunately die within hours or days. Most greyhounds race to 4 years. Some to 5. Many hundreds are kept for breeding. Greyhounds, like other large dogs rarely live to 10 years.

jackboy

Discodog wrote: »

Simply not true. The number of Vet practices is rapidly increasing. The vast majority do care about their dogs.

Where's your evidence for such a claim ?

In the countryside most unwanted litters of pups and kittens are killed at home by drowning. This is widespread, everyone in the countryside knows this. This doesn’t mean that they don’t care about animals, its just seen as practical. Not enough dogs are neutered. In general, pet dogs are treated worse than greyhounds.

Much less common in urban areas of course as unwanted litters are rare.

Graces7

jackboy wrote: »

In the countryside most unwanted litters of pups and kittens are killed at home by drowning. This is widespread, everyone in the countryside knows this. This doesn’t mean that they don’t care about animals, its just seen as practical. Not enough dogs are neutered. In general, pet dogs are treated worse than greyhounds.

Much less common in urban areas of course as unwanted litters are rare.

I have lived deep rural Ireland for 20 years and never ever encountered this. Or bad treatment of pet or farm dogs.. And i keep my eyes wide open . I have on the other hand met many wonderful hardworking caring folk working with cats and dogs and their owners. Myself included.

And yet more deflection of course! Greyhounds are the subject. OK? OK<

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Many dogs are treated badly by humans every year. Greyhounds are probably treated better than most.

The only way to avoid mistreatment is simply to make it illegal for anyone to own a dog.

Or at the very least, you need a license that requires you to jump through a lot of hoops to get and keep. That might get rid of the half arsed owners that are more likely to mistreat pets.

No it wouldn't.
I would rather an outright ban on puppy farms. Adopt a rescue dog or forget about owning a dog. Reduce the instances of impulse purchases of dogs off Donedeal and the like. Monitor private ads offerring dogs. However we are talking about the greyhound industry here, let's not go down the whataboutery road.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

No it wouldn't.
I would rather an outright ban on puppy farms. Adopt a rescue dog or forget about owning a dog. Reduce the instances of impulse purchases of dogs off Donedeal and the like. Monitor private ads offerring dogs. However we are talking about the greyhound industry here, let's not go down the whataboutery road.

Whatabout the non silent, non peaceful protest outside Shelbourne Park last night. Do you condone the actions of the so called animal lovers abusing racegoers?

batgoat

Graces7 wrote: »

I have lived deep rural Ireland for 20 years and never ever encountered this. Or bad treatment of pet or farm dogs.. And i keep my eyes wide open . I have on the other hand met many wonderful hardworking caring folk working with cats and dogs and their owners. Myself included.

And yet more deflection of course! Greyhounds are the subject. OK? OK<

It did definitely happen in the past in relation to farm dogs. But litters being drowned from a pet dog in a non farm environment is incredibly uncommon. And I'm from the country side. Also abhor the fact that farmers did that, not sure how common it is now.

gozunda

batgoat wrote: »

There's literally no reference in that article to anything being referred to the Gardai and it's perfectly possible to reference threats without divulging identities. If in the event of actual threats, I happily support convictions but the existence of such threats is very much so something that is unclear at this point in time. Similar to the Barry's Tea ones which you cannot substantiate. It seems more like the IGB on the back foot trying to generate sympathy directed at them tbh. Also saying that how protest is engaged in is dishonest or puerile does not make it illegal. The full weight of the law cannot and should not be able to pursue such instances of protest.

So you are now saying there was no "malicious online threats”  despite that being detailed in the article above? Realy lol. Afaik the usual thing is that the Gardai get involved where such threats are involved. But you probably dont like that either.

And of note it was the activists who were detailing that their comments were being deleted on the Barry's website. And you would like others to break boards ToU etc for your curiosity. Dont think thats going happen somehow.

Yup I said it was dishonest and puerile - and it is. That stands. Where deliberate organised incitment to violence is involved- then the full weight of the law should most certainly shouod be applied imo.

gozunda

Discodog wrote: »

Evidence ?

So suddenly someone here is interested in all dogs? Well that's a change from bashing all greyhound owners...

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-puppy-farm-dogs-3008473-Oct2016/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-rules-aim-to-combat-ireland-s-reputation-as-puppy-farm-capital-1.3558057

Igotadose

Graces7 wrote: »

I have lived deep rural Ireland for 20 years and never ever encountered this. Or bad treatment of pet or farm dogs.. And i keep my eyes wide open . I have on the other hand met many wonderful hardworking caring folk working with cats and dogs and their owners. Myself included.

And yet more deflection of course! Greyhounds are the subject. OK? OK<

Sadly here in rural West Kerry I've certainly encountered this practice, for both dogs and cats.

But, yes, this is about greyhounds and their abuse by the greyhound industry.

batgoat

gozunda wrote: »

So you are now saying there was no "malicious online threats”  despite that being detailed in the article above? Realy lol. Afaik the usual thing is that the Gardai get involved where such threats are involved. But you probably dont like that either.

And of note it was the activists who were detailing that their comments were being deleted on the Barry's website. And you would like others to break boards ToU etc for your curiosity. Dont think thats going happen somehow.

Yup I said it was dishonest and puerile - and it is. That stands. Where deliberate organised incitment to violence is involved- then the full weight of the law should most certainly be applied imo.

Where in the article did it say anything was reported to the Gardai? The main claim appears to have originated from the IGB which could very easily be for their own pr. So I'd very much so take it with a grain of salt until I actually hear about them reporting anything.

I fully agree with prosecuting anyone who threatens violence but so far, much of this seems to be the IGB and its supporters trying to rewrite the narrative into sympathy for them.

jackboy

Graces7 wrote: »

I have lived deep rural Ireland for 20 years and never ever encountered this. Or bad treatment of pet or farm dogs.. And i keep my eyes wide open . I have on the other hand met many wonderful hardworking caring folk working with cats and dogs and their owners. Myself included.

And yet more deflection of course! Greyhounds are the subject. OK? OK<

You might say deflection, I would say slight broadening.

There are a lot of issues with greyhound racing which need to be fixed. The worst issues are just as common in the pet dog industry. There are good greyhound owners just like good pet owners.

gozunda

batgoat wrote: »

Where in the article did it say anything was reported to the Gardai? The main claim appears to have originated from the IGB which could very easily be for their own pr. So I'd very much so take it with a grain of salt until I actually hear about them reporting anything. I fully agree with prosecuting anyone who threatens violence but so far, much of this seems to be the IGB and its supporters trying to rewrite the narrative into sympathy for them.

You are splitting hairs there btw. Where did I say it did? But certainly that is what normally happens in such situations. The article referred to is not about the IGB - just to knock that allegation on the head. Strange stance in apparent support of what's described as "malicious online threats” no?

Graces7

jackboy wrote: »

You might say deflection, I would say slight broadening.

There are a lot of issues with greyhound racing which need to be fixed. The worst issues are just as common in the pet dog industry. There are good greyhound owners just like good pet owners.

proof? re pet dogs I mean

and yes sheer deflection... as nothing to do with the thread...

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatabout the non silent, non peaceful protest outside Shelbourne Park last night. Do you condone the actions of the so called animal lovers abusing racegoers?

Maryanne making it up again. Greyhound racers dished out the worst verbal and violent abuse yet at the protesters last night. There were more protesters than attendees inside the stadium which was magnificent.

12 dogs died last year at Shelbourne dog death track while racing for the gambling addicts, 10 dogs died on track the year before. You have no sympathy for the furry pets who died for sport.

Igotadose

jackboy wrote: »

You might say deflection, I would say slight broadening.

There are a lot of issues with greyhound racing which need to be fixed. The worst issues are just as common in the pet dog industry. There are good greyhound owners just like good pet owners.

The greyhound 'industry' would not exist without taxpayer subsidy. A big part of that industry is breed and export, that is, not supporting racing in Ireland but instead just the livelihood of export breeders. There is an oversupply of greyhounds of unknown size, in the thousands, perhaps 6000, perhaps more. The authority funded by the Irish taxpayer to monitor and control this industry is, by their own commissioned studies, doing poorly at it and is being taken to task about it. Sure, there are good dog owners, but our tax dollars aren't ring-fenced to subsidize them, unlike greyhound breeders.

I doubt a dog owner could go to a knackery and have his dog bolt-gunned to death like shown in the documentary, while waiting around for the collar to be returned.
I doubt 1/2 the knackeries called would take dogs for execution, unlike their offers on greyhounds. They can for greyhounds. Do you agree boltgunning any dog to death is abhorrent and should be stopped?

So, no, it's just deflection. This thread's about greyhounds and the Irish greyhound industry, as well as the failures of the IGB manifested in that documentary and their own commissioned reports.

Finally, the documentary talked about coursing. That's simply a barbaric bloodsport that should be ended, it's for sadistic dilettantes living vicariously through a dog trying to capture and dismember a hare. It, too, is subsidized and the highest levels of the IGB are involved in illegal 'courses' (they currently deny it but there's no investigation afaik into what the documentary alleged - probably the IGB or ICC are responsible for investigations, too.)

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

Maryanne making it up again. Greyhound racers dished out the worst verbal and violent abuse yet at the protesters last night. There were more protesters than attendees inside the stadium which was magnificent.

12 dogs died last year at Shelbourne dog death track while racing for the gambling addicts, 10 dogs died on track the year before. You have no sympathy for the furry pets who died for sport.

https://www.facebook.com/banbloodsports/videos/2387487991523306/?type=2&theater

F***in abusive sh**s?? And when all else fails, try “Woman beater”.

You obviously weren’t inside the stadium! Great crowd. Great racing.

Discodog

Graces7 wrote: »

I have lived deep rural Ireland for 20 years and never ever encountered this. Or bad treatment of pet or farm dogs.. And i keep my eyes wide open . I have on the other hand met many wonderful hardworking caring folk working with cats and dogs and their owners. Myself included.

And yet more deflection of course! Greyhounds are the subject. OK? OK<

So have I & I have only known a few examples.

When it comes to any animal rights issues, the only opinions I take seriously are those of vegans.

If you think greyhound racing is cruel but then eat a full Irish breakfast and a fillet steak for dinner, well then you only care about a particular type of animal.

Is it cruel to slaughter animals? Yes
Is it cruel to keep animals in captivity? Yes
Is it cruel to race animals? Yes
Is it cruel to spray fly killer in your home? Yes
Is it cruel to go fishing? Yes

Will any of those things change? No

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

The Oireachtas transcript contains all you need. I would have thought that you would have watched it live.

“At the moment, there are 3,600 greyhounds in the country. In 2018, there were 2,344 litters. We send about 6,500 greyhounds to England every year.
There are about 2,000 greyhounds coursing. Those are the current figures.
On the question on the disciplinary steward, I do not know the answer. It is an executive function but I will find out for the Senator. I would not have disagreed with the Senator in that I would have believed we should have our full regulatory team in place now.
With regard to current reporting methods, there is a statutory requirement on people to report life events with greyhounds but there is no proper method of detecting whether they have done it. Generally, by the time it is established that they have not, it is too late to prosecute them. The current regime does not work in that respect. Quite a few of the on-the-spot fines handed out by our stewards are for failures to report the change of ownership of a greyhound, for example. They are not being issued often enough and they are not large enough to” https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/2019-07-09/7/

Dogs taking part in races ? So back to the constantly unanswered question. What percentage of puppies end up racing ?

Are you stating here, for posterity, that there will be no more dead Greyhounds ?

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/banbloodsports/videos/2387487991523306/?type=2&theater

F***in abusive sh**s?? And when all else fails, try “Woman beater”.

You obviously weren’t inside the stadium! Great crowd. Great racing.

You don't even live in Dublin! (no point going back editing your posts!)

The man attacked the woman on the megaphone causing injury, that's a woman beater. Gardai are involved in the case now.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

When it comes to any animal rights issues, the only opinions I take seriously are those of vegans.

If you think greyhound racing is cruel but then eat a full Irish breakfast and a fillet steak for dinner, well then you only care about a particular type of animal.

Is it cruel to slaughter animals? Yes
Is it cruel to keep animals in captivity? Yes
Is it cruel to race animals? Yes
Is it cruel to spray fly killer in your home? Yes
Is it cruel to go fishing? Yes

Will any of those things change? No

It's about animal welfare not animal rights.
More & more & more deflection.

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

You don't even live in Dublin! (no point going back editing your posts!)

The man attacked the woman on the megaphone causing injury, that's a woman beater. Gardai are involved in the case now.

Brilliant. I may not live in Dublin, but I know what happened there last night! The Garda report will make interesting reading!

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

So suddenly someone here is interested in all dogs? Well that's a change from bashing all greyhound owners...

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-puppy-farm-dogs-3008473-Oct2016/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-rules-aim-to-combat-ireland-s-reputation-as-puppy-farm-capital-1.3558057

You said
"Approx 30,000 pet dogs disappear each year"

30,000 dogs bred doesn't mean that 30,000 disappear. :rolleyes:

I abhor puppy farming & look forward to the day when they are all closed.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

It's about animal welfare not animal rights.
More & more & more deflection.

I couldn’t care less if greyhound racing is banned.
My point is, there is so much more animal cruelty out there anyways. Most of which are way worse than racing some dogs