RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

That’s a really good point.

Why is there talk of pet animal ownership in this thread about the greyhound industry ?

gozunda

xckjoo wrote: »

Them being unaccounted for is no more acceptable than them all being dead. It just tells us the governing bodies are inept or unwilling

Agreed . Unaccounted dogs are an industry wide problem. However in your second point - you are wrong. With greyhounds now being fully tracked - this should no longer be a issue. And fair play.

It would appear that the 30,000 pet dogs bred in this country every year and which are sold, killed or abandoned don't have the same level of campaigning and support for a similar level of inspection and accountability.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-puppy-farm-dogs-3008473-Oct2016/

Not directed at your post btw but to develop what you said further - I do believe it's a pity that the welfare of all dogs is being pushed aside with this campaign. There shouldn't be laws for one group and none for the others. Although tbh anyone concerned enough to repeat the ban ideology ad nauseum much evident in this thread can safely start a new one about banning everything and not worry. That's of course assuming they're bringing it up out of concern for the animals and not just to push their views ...

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s a really good point.

Why is there talk of pet animal ownership in this thread about the greyhound industry ?

It would destroy the greyhound racing gamblers if greyhounds were treated as pets and not commodities of an industry to be raced to death in huge numbers. Greyhounds are still treated as livestock in legislation, can you believe that?

jackboy

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s a really good point.

Why is there talk of pet animal ownership in this thread about the greyhound industry ?

Because good greyhound owners, that treat their dogs well, have been called despicable and supporters of a murderous genocidal industry. Extreme language has been used. At the same time, good pet owners are deemed to have no responsibility for the much worse abuse that occurs in the pet dog industry.

The greyhound and pet dog industries have a lot of differences with regards to funding, taxation and organisation but is that enough to completely seperate the moral obligations for the owners of different breeds of dog.

Some posters are focusing on the existance of the greyhound industry and on individiduals that they don't know. However, as with a lot of issues in this country, it's enforced appropriate regulation that is required.

xckjoo

jackboy wrote: »

Because good greyhound owners, that treat their dogs well, have been called despicable and supporters of a murderous genocidal industry. Extreme language has been used. At the same time, good pet owners are deemed to have no responsibility for the much worse abuse that occurs in the pet dog industry.

The greyhound and pet dog industries have a lot of differences with regards to funding, taxation and organisation but is that enough to completely seperate the moral obligations for the owners of different breeds of dog.

Some posters are focusing on the existance of the greyhound industry and on individiduals that they don't know. However, as with a lot of issues in this country, it's enforced appropriate regulation that is required.

Totally agree with you on the extreme language; particularly the stuff aimed at all greyhound owners. I'd say it's the minorities that are the bad eggs, but even if it's more than I think there's still plenty of owners out there who treat their dogs well and have a genuine love for them.
I disagree that the pet industry (and I use that word purposefully) needs to be discussed in the same breath. Just because one is sh1t doesn't mean the other can't or shouldn't get their act together. There's a myriad of reasons I can think of on why it's incorrect to discuss them in an interdependent fashion, but I think I can sum it up by saying that you can't justify awful practises in one industry just because equal or worse practises exist in another one.

gozunda

xckjoo wrote: »

Totally agree with you on the extreme language; particularly the stuff aimed at all greyhound owners. I'd say it's the minorities that are the bad eggs, but even if it's more than I think there's still plenty of owners out there who treat their dogs well and have a genuine love for them. I disagree that the pet industry (and I use that word purposefully) needs to be discussed in the same breath. Just because one is sh1t doesn't mean the other can't or shouldn't get their act together. There's a myriad of reasons I can think of on why it's incorrect to discuss them in an interdependent fashion, but I think I can sum it up by saying that you can't justify awful practises in one industry just because equal or worse practises exist in another one.

Imo no-one is justifying any 'awful' practises here as far as I can see. I believe the point is that that all owners and breeders of dogs (of specific breed or no breed it does not matter ) should have the same level of accountability and all under one umbrella. And where necessary breed specific legislation should be applied. Imo It really makes no sense to campaign against and pilliory the owners or breeders of just one breed of dog. Many of the problems discussed are universal and apply to all dogs. And that is the level these issues needs to be tackled at.

Igotadose

xckjoo wrote: »

I'd say it's the minorities that are the bad eggs, but even if it's more than I think there's still plenty of owners out there who treat their dogs well and have a genuine love for them.

A glass can be half full, or half empty, depending on your perspective. What's a minority? 1%? .005%? 10%? 20%? There're *no data.* Everything's just conjecture. Rather than waiting on the IGB to get around to providing it, start pressing for some changes, like ending coursing outright, and the live export of Greyhounds. Two huge problems solved at the stroke of a pen.

Further, if it's a minority, there's at least 1 Youtube documentary about a champion greyhound trainer whose son was caught using live rabbits as part of his own training, and dad ran interference with the media telling sonny not to respond. This was a champion trainer, with lots of fans in the sport. If *he's* using live rabbits (against IGB rules of course), is this a minority event or is he just a bad egg?

gozunda

klaaaz wrote: »

It would destroy the greyhound racing gamblers if greyhounds were treated as pets and not commodities of an industry to be raced to death in huge numbers. Greyhounds are still treated as livestock in legislation, can you believe that?

No I'm not sure that is the case.

Someone brought that up earlier in the thread and they could find no substantiation of that claim afaik.

Plus if your aim is to get rid of gambling - fair enough. However our national lottery is state backed and supports gambling. How to 'destroy' that?

klaaaz

gozunda wrote: »

No I'm not sure that is the case.

Someone brought that up earlier in the thread and they could find no substantiation of that claim afaik.

Plus if your aim is to get rid of gambling - fair enough. However our national lottery is state backed and supports gambling. How to 'destroy' that?

Gambling on the Lottery does not involve killing animals every year, 500 plus deaths on dog tracks since 2015.

Greyhounds are treated as farm animals, they are not treated as dogs under law unlike any other dog. Yep you read that right!

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/when-is-a-dog-not-a-dog-when-it-s-an-irish-greyhound-1.3939314

Here is a particularly gruesome riddle: When is a dog not a dog? The answer, according to an extremely disturbing, eye-opening report, is when it’s a greyhound.

Under Irish law, these lean and hungry creatures are not classified as dogs at all, but as farm animals. Perhaps they are impressive at pest control, or very good at pulling tiny ploughs, because otherwise it makes no sense. No other farm animals would be treated so appallingly.

xckjoo

Igotadose wrote: »

A glass can be half full, or half empty, depending on your perspective. What's a minority? 1%? .005%? 10%? 20%? There're *no data.* Everything's just conjecture. Rather than waiting on the IGB to get around to providing it, start pressing for some changes, like ending coursing outright, and the live export of Greyhounds. Two huge problems solved at the stroke of a pen.

Further, if it's a minority, there's at least 1 Youtube documentary about a champion greyhound trainer whose son was caught using live rabbits as part of his own training, and dad ran interference with the media telling sonny not to respond. This was a champion trainer, with lots of fans in the sport. If *he's* using live rabbits (against IGB rules of course), is this a minority event or is he just a bad egg?

Ya IGB and ICC should have their feet held to the coals for the foreseeable future until they prove they can clean up the industry. I just don't know enough about that side of things to say exactly what that should look like.

A champion greyhound trainer is by definition a minority. They can't all be champions. Usually they're the people that are willing to go that extra mile to win and that often includes using morally questionable/bankrupt practises. The majority of people involved in any sport are the people not at the top. The majority of footballers aren't on multi-million euro contracts, it's probably the lads on the 5 aside teams. I would guess that the posters here defending the industry are small scale owners that are more in it for the love of the sport than the money so they don't all deserve to be painted as awful human beings.

Now I should also say that this doesn't mean that the industry should be given carte blanc to continue to exist. If IGB and ICC can't eliminate the cruelty aspects of the industry then it should be banned outright. Certain parts of it should have been banned years ago. They've had more than enough time as it is. They've seen it change in every other western country that has greyhound racing and/or coursing but have just continued on as-is. If I was involved in greyhound racing I'd be banging on the doors of their office demanding they get it sorted. It's them that are letting the good owners down; not RTE for exposing the practises they have allowed or the public who are against them being allowed to happen. Not wanting dogs to suffer so a small number of people (I think it's safe to say that the number of Irish people who regularly engage in the sport is a relatively small percentage) can enjoy and/or profit from something is not a weird or extremist stance.

jackboy

jackboy wrote: »

Some posters are focusing on the existance of the greyhound industry and on individiduals that they don't know. However, as with a lot of issues in this country, it's enforced appropriate regulation that is required.

Regulations have tightened up a lot in the past year. We now have to inform the Stud Book of the whereabouts of our dogs when they finish racing, even if they’re now couch potatoes. The issue of greyhounds ears being mutilated is a thing of the past since DNA testing was mandatory for the past 10 years or more, so the only reason that was included in the program was for sensation. Same goes for dogs being pumped full of EPO. Over 5,000 tests are carried out every year on greyhounds and the most common substance found in the appropriate 50 adverse analytical findings are for common painkillers. EPO was last found in 2005.
No self respecting greyhound person would knowingly sell a greyhound to China.


It’s common knowledge that some people just want greyhound racing banned, ended, finito. That’s not going to happen. It’s worth too much to the states coffers and too many jobs depend on it.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s common knowledge that some people just want greyhound racing banned, ended, finito. That’s not going to happen. It’s worth too much to the states coffers and too many jobs depend on it.

The numbers of jobs is of course debatable, as there are no real statistics. There are estimates in the IGB's own Powers report we've discussed, personally I think they're overblown by a substantial amount. The State could absorb the shuttering of Greyhound racing without a hiccup.

Muahahaha

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s a really good point.

Why is there talk of pet animal ownership in this thread about the greyhound industry ?

Because posters keep insisting on engaging in whataboutery. When they know the greyhound industry is inherently cruel but dont want to admit it they just point at another entirely separate issue. Its a clear attempt to drag the thread off topic by constantly saying 'what about pets' 'what about cows' 'what about fish' and so on.

Anyway hearing rumours that a nationally known greyhound trainer in the south west is soon to be embroiled in a Garda corruption scandal involving bribery and drugs. He has already been arrested and questioned by the National Crime Bureau with charges to follow.

gozunda

klaaaz wrote: »

Gambling on the Lottery does not involve killing animals every year, 500 plus deaths on dog tracks since 2015.
Greyhounds are treated as farm animals, they are not treated as dogs under law unlike any other dog. Yep you read that right!

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/when-is-a-dog-not-a-dog-when-it-s-an-irish-greyhound-1.3939314

It was unclear whether you were attacking gamblers or greyhound racing tbh. Ok are you saying removing gambling will solves the issue of rogue breeders etc? What about the owners of greyhounds who take care of their animals? Or are you suggesting taking a sledgehammer to everyone?

As for 'killing' greyhounds - imo the majority of greyhound owners do not 'kill'. Are greyhounds sometimes euthanized by these same owners- yes they are for many of the same reasons - other owners have their dogs euthanized. Are there rogue breeders and owners? I'm sure there are - but that is not all those who own or race greyhounds.

You said that under legislation - greyhounds are treated as livestock. That does not hold up to scrutiny - see the posts in this thread on that issue. I cant read the newspaper article btw as its behind a paywall - so what legislation deems greyhounds as "livestock"? Genuine question.

gozunda

Muahahaha wrote: »

Because posters keep insisting on engaging in whataboutery. When they know the greyhound industry is inherently cruel but dont want to admit it they just point at another entirely separate issue. Its a clear attempt to drag the thread off topic by constantly saying 'what about pets' 'what about cows' 'what about fish' and so on.

Anyway hearing rumours that a nationally known greyhound trainer in the south west is soon to be embroiled in a Garda corruption scandal involving bribery and drugs. He has already been arrested and questioned by the National Crime Bureau with charges to follow.

As detailed - there are very good reasons why legislation should be drafted for all dogs and all breeds. That has already been gone into in some detail. The only ones I see pushing the greyhound only angle are the perennial 'ban ' brigades tbh.

I dont believe this thread does well to be informed by "rumour". I believe the general rule is provide some backup or get out.

By the way we dont have a National Cime Bureau in Ireland...

We have the Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau. So you are saying there are also corrupt Gardai involved or? Actually that certainly is serious whataboutery. So no bother ...

Choc Chip

gozunda wrote: »

You said that under legislation - greyhounds are treated as livestock. That does not hold up to scrutiny - see the posts in this thread on that issue. I cant read the newspaper article btw as its behind a paywall - so what legislation deems greyhounds as "livestock"? Genuine question.

I wonder if this is what people are referring to: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/15/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2

"farm animal” means an animal—
...

(b) for use in, or for the purposes of, breeding, sport or the farming of land,

...;"

It's not an area of law I'm particularly familiar with though.

Muahahaha

gozunda wrote: »

As detailed - there are very good reasons why legislation should be drafted for all dogs and all breeds. That has already been gone into in some detail. The only ones I see pushing the greyhound only angle are the perennial 'ban ' brigades tbh.

I dont believe this thread does well to be informed by "rumour". I believe the general rule is provide some backup or get out.

By the way we dont have a National Cime Bureau in Ireland...

We have the Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau. So you are saying there are also corrupt Gardai involved or? Actually that certainly is serious whataboutery. So no bother ...

Yes, a Garda Superintendent and Inspector have already been arrested and now a well known greyhound trainer is a suspect in involvement and has been arrested and questioned too.

And sorry dont accuse me of whataboutery when you're the main proponent of it on this thread. Lots of your posts are 'what about pets' why aren't people complaining about them. The topic of this thread is greyhounds and greyhound racing, not other dogs, not cats, not cows and not fish. Your whataboutery is plastered all over this thread in an attempt to derail it and its long since gotten tiresome to read.

Discodog

xckjoo wrote: »

Them being unaccounted for is no more acceptable than them all being dead. It just tells us the governing bodies are inept or unwilling

One could say "disappeared"

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

ban greyhound racing you say?

Ah yes amongst others - that particular campaign spearheaded by PETA in the US. The same ones looking to ban all pets there and who actively take and kill domestic animals and discard them like thrash...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/killing-animals-petas-open-secret_b_59e78243e4b0e60c4aa36711

And that would be all the same crowds looking to ban all animal farming regardless of how well animals are looked after ...

Like all these extremist groups - you'd need your head examined to start thinking they have any interest in animal welfare. They dont. They see all domestic animals as an abomination. I suppose they are entitled to their views...

Sounds like the IGB & their supporters.

Discodog

xckjoo wrote: »

IMO IGB/ICC have shown no evidence that they are capable of willing to tackle the major issues in the sports so they should rightly be held under the microscope for the foreseeable future. So far I've only seen them trying to deflect and defend the status quo. It's the usual crap of people more interested in saving their jobs than actually doing them.

Private pet issues are also an enormous problem in this country and has huge numbers of very dedicated people that spend their lives trying to improve things with minimal help from the state (or state sponsored bodies....). Either of these issues can be improved without impacting the other though. Anyone that's concerned by it enough repeat it ad nauseum in this thread can safely start a new one about it and not worry. That's assuming they're bringing it up out of concern for the animals and not just to deflect from the topic at hand....

They are not. The number of unwanted dogs killed in Ireland has dropped year upon year. The 2018 figures are the lowest ever.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Agreed . Unaccounted dogs are an industry wide problem. However in your second point - you are wrong. With greyhounds now being fully tracked - this should no longer be a issue. And fair play.

It would appear that the 30,000 pet dogs bred in this country every year and which are sold, killed or abandoned don't have the same level of campaigning and support for a similar level of inspection and accountability.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-puppy-farm-dogs-3008473-Oct2016/

Not directed at your post btw but to develop what you said further - I do believe it's a pity that the welfare of all dogs is being pushed aside with this campaign. There shouldn't be laws for one group and none for the others. Although tbh anyone concerned enough to repeat the ban ideology ad nauseum much evident in this thread can safely start a new one about banning everything and not worry. That's of course assuming they're bringing it up out of concern for the animals and not just to push their views ...

Greyhounds have been accountable & tattooed for years.

Absolute rubbish. There have been huge campaigns & an Act of Law. There is no evidence whatsoever that large numbers of pet dogs are being killed. It's just more deflection.

Or maybe their views are that they are concerned about animal welfare.

Discodog

jackboy wrote: »

Because good greyhound owners, that treat their dogs well, have been called despicable and supporters of a murderous genocidal industry. Extreme language has been used. At the same time, good pet owners are deemed to have no responsibility for the much worse abuse that occurs in the pet dog industry.

The greyhound and pet dog industries have a lot of differences with regards to funding, taxation and organisation but is that enough to completely seperate the moral obligations for the owners of different breeds of dog.

Some posters are focusing on the existance of the greyhound industry and on individiduals that they don't know. However, as with a lot of issues in this country, it's enforced appropriate regulation that is required.

Not here they haven't. The, so good, good owners have been accused of, at very least, turning a blind eye.

If I raced my Pet dog & risked injury & then killed it when I know longer wanted it, I would justifiably be vilified.

You are the ones wanting exemptions from Animal Welfare law
You are the ones who see a Greyhound as some kind of sub species of dog.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Imo no-one is justifying any 'awful' practises here as far as I can see. I believe the point is that that all owners and breeders of dogs (of specific breed or no breed it does not matter ) should have the same level of accountability and all under one umbrella. And where necessary breed specific legislation should be applied. Imo It really makes no sense to campaign against and pilliory the owners or breeders of just one breed of dog. Many of the problems discussed are universal and apply to all dogs. And that is the level these issues needs to be tackled at.

Of course it does when that breed is singled out & killed by a whole industry.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Regulations have tightened up a lot in the past year. We now have to inform the Stud Book of the whereabouts of our dogs when they finish racing, even if they’re now couch potatoes. The issue of greyhounds ears being mutilated is a thing of the past since DNA testing was mandatory for the past 10 years or more, so the only reason that was included in the program was for sensation. Same goes for dogs being pumped full of EPO. Over 5,000 tests are carried out every year on greyhounds and the most common substance found in the appropriate 50 adverse analytical findings are for common painkillers. EPO was last found in 2005.
No self respecting greyhound person would knowingly sell a greyhound to China.


It’s common knowledge that some people just want greyhound racing banned, ended, finito. That’s not going to happen. It’s worth too much to the states coffers and too many jobs depend on it.

If thousands of missing dogs are found by the next documentary it will end racing. The IGB/ICC can only make so many false promises. This is nothing new & once the heat dies down, the old ways will resurface.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Imo no-one is justifying any 'awful' practises here as far as I can see. I believe the point is that that all owners and breeders of dogs (of specific breed or no breed it does not matter ) should have the same level of accountability and all under one umbrella. And where necessary breed specific legislation should be applied. Imo It really makes no sense to campaign against and pilliory the owners or breeders of just one breed of dog. Many of the problems discussed are universal and apply to all dogs. And that is the level these issues needs to be tackled at.

The do. The Animal Welfare Act covers all dogs but the greyhound lobby sought exclusions for "their" breed.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yes, a Garda Superintendent and Inspector have already been arrested and now a well known greyhound trainer is a suspect in involvement and has been arrested and questioned too.

And sorry dont accuse me of whataboutery when you're the main proponent of it on this thread. Lots of your posts are 'what about pets' why aren't people complaining about them. The topic of this thread is greyhounds and greyhound racing, not other dogs, not cats, not cows and not fish. Your whataboutery is plastered all over this thread in an attempt to derail it and its long since gotten tiresome to read.

Have you a link for this?

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

If thousands of missing dogs are found by the next documentary it will end racing. The IGB/ICC can only make so many false promises. This is nothing new & once the heat dies down, the old ways will resurface.

ALL greyhounds will be traceable from now on.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

ALL greyhounds will be traceable from now on.

And, the IGB has announced how they're going to enforce this - surprise visits to kennels, phone-in numbers for Vets in case they come across an un-tattooed dogs, and penalties like loss of license (assuming one needs a license to train & race greyhounds), correct? Are those regulations online somewhere?

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

And, the IGB has announced how they're going to enforce this - surprise visits to kennels, phone-in numbers for Vets in case they come across an un-tattooed dogs, and penalties like loss of license (assuming one needs a license to train & race greyhounds), correct? Are those regulations online somewhere?

You keep on about untattooed greyhounds. If it’s not tattooed, it’s not able to run. Who in their right minds would spend thousands breeding greyhounds that will never be able to run? ALL greyhounds are tattooed, microchipped and their parents DNA registered. The rules and regulations are on the breeding papers along with colour inheritance etc.

All breeders are subject to unannounced spot checks.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

ALL greyhounds will be traceable from now on.

They always were. You said that DNA records have been kept for years.