RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

Igotadose

Discodog wrote: »

That's the big problem. The figure I listed are those provided by the ICC/IGB. It's like putting ex criminals in charge of the justice system. None of the data can be verified so basically they can say whatever they want.

I recall they had the same problem with their accounts & their auditors took extended sick leave after this expose.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/greyhound-board-auditors-take-sick-leave-after-race-fixing-report-234798.html

They surely are the gift that keeps giving. All those millions spent on them, and as the article mentions, 2 million spent on HR issues and a retiring CEO saying at least they weren't litigated with him in charge. What a great achievement

Pathetic bunch.

gozunda

Igotadose wrote: »

Wouldn't it be helpful if the IGB actually kept some verified figures. Something a government agency you'd think would be interested in doing. Well, maybe now that registration's required with the ICC or whatever the latest great idea is from the IGB. I'm sure we'll be seeing these numbers post-haste now. Still, we do have the Powers report showing estimated numbers of breedings per year, it's a start. The numbers posted earlier aren't off of the number from that report, and the number of pups per litter is conjecture, have heard 4, 5 and 6 on this forum, 5 and 6 from pro-racing types.So, what numbers would you project are the numbers of litters per year and the average size per litter? Surely pro-racing types have an idea, being so focused on all things greyhound welfare related.
And, getting back to my other question, do you agree coursing should be banned outright? Complete waste of resources on a blood sport "enjoyed" by a minute segment of society.

You have a serious gra for "pro racing" types there lol. I agree on the conjecture btw. With the figures which are there - it's impossible to come up with any reliable or concrete findings*. So really not very useful for anything other than throwing ****e tbh.

But no I've no idea of figures btw. But it is easy to spot restaurmatics type computations. I believe MaryAnne has a good knowledge of the situation as it was 10 years ago and how it has changed. Maybe she would give us her experience in this area?

I am neither a 'pro racer' or the other end of the spectrum. I have a couple of elderly neighbours who keep greyhounds and tbh those dogs are kept better than they are. As for coursing i know nothing about it other than there is legal and something which is referred to as illegal coursing. Around here the only type of coursing (which is a 'blood sport') I ever heard of was second type and no amount of banning is going have any effect on that imo.

Afaik legal coursing is not defined as a 'blood sport' as the aim is not to kill anything
Now I understand the likes of iscabs may lump it all together or call it that but that's a particular stance of those types of group perhaps?

Anyway it looks that with DNA and chipping and the keeping of data on all registered greyhounds which has been brought in at an official level things will become a lot more transparant. Still wont stop some running around like they are he only holders of the truth when the agenda to ban racing predated any of this tbh.



Ps. No idea how I managed to hit delete on the previous comment. Any way no bother.

Edit*: Just to clarify - It's like the made up 10,000 figure extrapolated by some from those IGB figures is somehow true because some would like it to be. As the IGB stated with regard to the report

...It said in respect of greyhound deaths that "all figures referenced in media and elsewhere from a variety of different sources - including the Preferred Results Report - are based on guesstimates/estimates and have no evidence base".

Discodog

Igotadose wrote: »

They surely are the gift that keeps giving. All those millions spent on them, and as the article mentions, 2 million spent on HR issues and a retiring CEO saying at least they weren't litigated with him in charge. What a great achievement

Pathetic bunch.

And we are meant to believe them, trust them & leave the welfare of Greyhounds in their hands.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

You have a serious gra for "pro racing" types there lol. I agree on the conjecture btw. With the figures which are there - it's impossible to come up with any reliable or concrete findings. So really not very useful for anything other than throwing ****e tbh.

But no I've no idea of figures btw. But it is easy to spot restaurmatics type computations. I believe MaryAnne has a good knowledge of the situation as it was 10 years ago and how it has changed. Maybe she would give us her experience in this area?

I am neither a 'pro racer' or the other end of the spectrum. I have a couple of elderly neighbours who keep greyhounds and tbh those dogs are kept better than they are. As for coursing i know nothing about it other than there is legal and something which is referred to as illegal coursing. Around here the only type of coursing (which is a 'blood sport') I ever heard of was second type and no amount of banning is going have any effect on that imo.

Afaik legal coursing is not defined as a 'blood sport' as the aim is not to kill anything
Now I understand the likes of iscabs may lump it all together or call it that but that's a particular stance of those types of group perhaps?

Ps. No idea how I managed to hit delete on the previous comment. Any way no bother.

So you now think that the ICC/IGB are posting conjecture figures ?

"10,377 greyhounds are unaccounted for in official statistics " is directly from the ICC/IGB

Igotadose

Reading this: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/submissions/2019/2019-07-09_opening-statement-frank-nyhan-chairperson-bord-na-gcon-irish-greyhound-board-igb_en.pdf

There's this gem of a line from the IGB spokesdroid: 'The IGB’s responsibilities relate solely to the racing greyhound. It does not extend to
cross breeds such as lurchers which featured prominently in the programme."

Now, IANAL but it seems to me that
1. Lurchers (the dogs used in coursing) aren't the responsibility of the IGB, even though they claim to administer coursing events. Seems like a real good reason to ban coursing outright, as the animals are completely unprotected by the IGB and I'm confident plenty of injuries and deaths happen in coursing events - there's no records, so I'm free to guess this is the case. Gladly will change my opinion if presented with some verifiable data from the ICC
2. "Non-racing greyhound" - exactly what is that? Is it o.k. to not chip greyhound pups if they're not used in racing? No keeping of records for any of them, so as to depress the 'number bred per year?' Seems to me if the *intent* is to breed racing greyhounds, all the greyhounds born in a litter to a racing sire & dam, should be racing greyhounds and protected accordingly. But the weasel-wording is concerning.

Discodog

Igotadose wrote: »

Reading this: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/submissions/2019/2019-07-09_opening-statement-frank-nyhan-chairperson-bord-na-gcon-irish-greyhound-board-igb_en.pdf

There's this gem of a line from the IGB spokesdroid: 'The IGB’s responsibilities relate solely to the racing greyhound. It does not extend to
cross breeds such as lurchers which featured prominently in the programme."

Now, IANAL but it seems to me that
1. Lurchers (the dogs used in coursing) aren't the responsibility of the IGB, even though they claim to administer coursing events. Seems like a real good reason to ban coursing outright, as the animals are completely unprotected by the IGB and I'm confident plenty of injuries and deaths happen in coursing events - there's no records, so I'm free to guess this is the case. Gladly will change my opinion if presented with some verifiable data from the ICC
2. "Non-racing greyhound" - exactly what is that? Is it o.k. to not chip greyhound pups if they're not used in racing? No keeping of records for any of them, so as to depress the 'number bred per year?' Seems to me if the *intent* is to breed racing greyhounds, all the greyhounds born in a litter to a racing sire & dam, should be racing greyhounds and protected accordingly. But the weasel-wording is concerning.

The really worrying thing is the IGB/ICC don't appear to know what a Greyhound is. Everyone knows that Greyhound is an individual breed of dog with it's own breed standard.

Suddenly microchipping it doesn't make it more of a Greyhound. A Lurcher is a cross breed like my Greyhound cross Saluki was. I would of been laughed at if I turned up with her at Clonmel.

But it's a nasty & clever move because they can absolve themselves of all responsibility for a lot of Greyhounds.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Reading this: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/submissions/2019/2019-07-09_opening-statement-frank-nyhan-chairperson-bord-na-gcon-irish-greyhound-board-igb_en.pdf

There's this gem of a line from the IGB spokesdroid: 'The IGB’s responsibilities relate solely to the racing greyhound. It does not extend to
cross breeds such as lurchers which featured prominently in the programme."

Now, IANAL but it seems to me that
1. Lurchers (the dogs used in coursing) aren't the responsibility of the IGB, even though they claim to administer coursing events. Seems like a real good reason to ban coursing outright, as the animals are completely unprotected by the IGB and I'm confident plenty of injuries and deaths happen in coursing events - there's no records, so I'm free to guess this is the case. Gladly will change my opinion if presented with some verifiable data from the ICC
2. "Non-racing greyhound" - exactly what is that? Is it o.k. to not chip greyhound pups if they're not used in racing? No keeping of records for any of them, so as to depress the 'number bred per year?' Seems to me if the *intent* is to breed racing greyhounds, all the greyhounds born in a litter to a racing sire & dam, should be racing greyhounds and protected accordingly. But the weasel-wording is concerning.

Please try and educate yourself. Lurcher are NOT used for licensed coursing.
Coursing bred dogs are.
If a greyhound type dog isn’t earmarked and microchipped, it’s an undetermined breed called a lurcher.
Can you explain why one would spend thousands breeding a litter of pups only to not register them?
I also think that the thousands of coursing greyhounds are included in those unaccounted for.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Please try and educate yourself. Lurcher are NOT used for licensed coursing.
Coursing bred dogs are.
If a greyhound type dog isn’t earmarked and microchipped, it’s an undetermined breed called a lurcher.
Can you explain why one would spend thousands breeding a litter of pups only to not register them?
I also think that the thousands of coursing greyhounds are included in those unaccounted for.

Definition of Lurcher:

1 archaic : a petty thief : PILFERER
2 British : a crossbred dog
especially : one that resembles a greyhound
3 archaic : one who lurks

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lurcher

a crossbred hunting dog, usually a greyhound cross with a collie, esp one trained to hunt silently

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/lurcher

The original "true" lurcher is a Border collie/greyhound, so that might have been what she meant - but I don't think many people would stick to that these days, anything with greyhound in it is normally called a lurcher. I call my dog a lurcher and, although I've no idea of her parentage, the best guess I can give is whippet/GSD.

Horse & Hound

How are we supposed to trust Greyhound owners & the IGB/ICC when they don't know the difference between a Greyhound or Lurcher.

If a Greyhound owner breeds from their Greyhound & the Sire is a Greyhound then the pups are Greyhounds.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

Definition of Lurcher:

1 archaic : a petty thief : PILFERER
2 British : a crossbred dog
especially : one that resembles a greyhound
3 archaic : one who lurks

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lurcher

a crossbred hunting dog, usually a greyhound cross with a collie, esp one trained to hunt silently

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/lurcher

The original "true" lurcher is a Border collie/greyhound, so that might have been what she meant - but I don't think many people would stick to that these days, anything with greyhound in it is normally called a lurcher. I call my dog a lurcher and, although I've no idea of her parentage, the best guess I can give is whippet/GSD.

Horse & Hound

How are we supposed to trust Greyhound owners & the IGB/ICC when they don't know the difference between a Greyhound or Lurcher.

If a Greyhound owner breeds from their Greyhound & the Sire is a Greyhound then the pups are Greyhounds.

So you keep saying, but you’re wrong.

Could you answer my question regarding the logic of spending thousands on breeding a litter of greyhounds only to not register them?
Also do you accept that lurchers are not used in licensed coursing events?

strandroad

Around 200-300 people have attended a protest in Dublin city centre against cruelty to greyhounds. The demonstration heard calls for the Government to ban greyhound racing.

Actor and activist Pauline McLynn said the industry has had a century to get dog welfare right and had failed to do so. She said the Government should not be supporting a dying industry and called for state funding of Bord na gCon to end immediately.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0727/1065578-greyhound-protest/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/protesters-urge-end-to-state-support-over-horrors-of-greyhound-racing-1.3969744

I was there. The protest was very well attended indeed, especially for a grassroots initiative unaffiliated with any particular organisation. We left the gates of Leinster House covered in collars (commemorating dogs killed by the industry) and our signs.

Most importantly the reaction from the bystanders was unanimously positive. Clapping, thumbs up, drivers stopping to help the entire column pass in one go, greetings from a tour bus driver. Not one bad word was heard. Many people coming up to pet the dogs, ask about them and share their disgust at what they learned from RTE.

Many more protests scheduled at tracks now.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

So you keep saying, but you’re wrong.

Could you answer my question regarding the logic of spending thousands on breeding a litter of greyhounds only to not register them?
Also do you accept that lurchers are not used in licensed coursing events?

So I am wrong & every single English dictionary is also wrong. You are now changing the English language ?

Discodog

strandroad wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0727/1065578-greyhound-protest/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/protesters-urge-end-to-state-support-over-horrors-of-greyhound-racing-1.3969744

I was there. The protest was very well attended indeed, especially for a grassroots initiative unaffiliated with any particular organisation. We left the gates of Leinster House covered in collars commemorating dogs killed by the industry and our signs.

Most importantly the reaction from the bystanders was unanimously positive. Clapping, thumbs up, drivers stopping to help the entire column pass in one go, greetings from a tour bus driver. Not one bad word was heard. Many people coming up to pet the dogs, ask about them and share their disgust at what they learned from RTE.

Many more protests scheduled at tracks now.

Come on tell the truth ? You were hurling abuse, throwing things at the Guards & trying to hide all those American animal rights people

Well done & thank you for representing those who couldn't make it.

mikeym

Deleted User wrote: »

How greyhounds are treated in China -

https://youtu.be/BUfu712tlkE

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Theres nothing humane there. Greyhounds are skinny dogs with hardly any meat content why eat them.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

So I am wrong & every single English dictionary is also wrong. You are now changing the English language ?

Yes. You are wrong.

Any chance you’d answer my question re not registering litters of expensively bred pups?

ILoveYourVibes

Discodog wrote: »

You are so utterly ignorant. That's how Greyhounds often look. My girl, that never raced & ate like a horse, was the same.

No it is not.

Your dog needs to go the vet.


I am not talking about you. But why is it that its always the animal rights activists that have animals in the worst condition i have ever seen. Same with horses cats etc.

Its clear those people are happy to abuse children and animals.

I am so done with holding my tongue with the crap i see people like that pull in rescues and elsewhere.

They haven't a CLUE about animals.

Volunteers shouldn't be allowed in rescues without completing a course in the care of the animal they are caring for. This nonsense has to end.

ILoveYourVibes

Discodog wrote: »

And we are meant to believe them, trust them & leave the welfare of Greyhounds in their hands.

I wouldn't leave the welfare of cactus in the hands of those protestors.

How you can think they are not evil is beyond me.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No it is not.

Your dog needs to go the vet.


I am not talking about you. But why is it that its always the animal rights activists that have animals in the worst condition i have ever seen. Same with horses cats etc.

Its clear those people are happy to abuse children and animals.

I am so done with holding my tongue with the crap i see people like that pull in rescues and elsewhere.

They haven't a CLUE about animals.

Volunteers shouldn't be allowed in rescues without completing a course in the care of the animal they are caring for. This nonsense has to end.

Just seen some coverage of today’s protest. Dear, sweet, Jesus. Animal lovers wouldn’t have their dogs out in the heat like they did today. Who are they kidding. Welfare my ...*** e.

strandroad

Deleted User wrote: »

Just seen some coverage of today’s protest. Dear, sweet, Jesus. Animal lovers wouldn’t have their dogs out in the heat like they did today. Who are they kidding. Welfare my ...*** e.

The "heat" was 19 degrees. And still we had cooling mats and blankets, plenty of water bottles and bowls, all gladly shared.

It's amusing when you pretend that you care.

strandroad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I wouldn't leave the welfare of cactus in the hands of those protestors.

How you can think they are not evil is beyond me.

So the protesters are evil but the industry is grand. Sure.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Just seen some coverage of today’s protest. Dear, sweet, Jesus. Animal lovers wouldn’t have their dogs out in the heat like they did today. Who are they kidding. Welfare my ...*** e.

I was thinking that. In fairness i don't know if they brought water.

https://www.igb.ie/Resource/greyhound-welfare/caring-for-the-greyhound-in-hot-weather/

This advise from the IGB is a good idea.

ILoveYourVibes

strandroad wrote: »

So the protesters are evil but the industry is grand. Sure.

Those protestors have a lot in common with some people in the greyhound industry they are the mirror image of each other.

There are many 'levels' of an industry the lower levels range from amateur to absolute chancer.

You can have all the 'heart' in the world but if you don't actually know what you are doing it just means you didn't care enough to put in the years to learn.

ILoveYourVibes

strandroad wrote: »

The "heat" was 19 degrees. And still we had cooling mats and blankets, plenty of water bottles and bowls, all gladly shared.

It's amusing when you pretend that you care.

Will the woman who has that greyhound pictures agree to a vet check of her dog? So we can make sure?

And who was the dog let off the lead? His owner seems to drop it??
Why did that happen?

Was it wise to take your dog to a place where you say you have been harassed?

You as animal rights activists have to hold yourselves to a higher standard.

strandroad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Those protestors have a lot in common with some people in the greyhound industry they are the mirror image of each other.

You are insulting people who are trying peacefully to stop the harm this industry is generating.

ILoveYourVibes

strandroad wrote: »

You are insulting people who are trying peacefully to stop the harm this industry is generating.

No. I have no issue with THOSE people.

But I think you KNOW the type of people I am talking about. If you have been around rescues or animal rights activists at all you know.

ILoveYourVibes

What I never understood was why can you volunteer at an animal rescue to care for animals you know NOTHING about but these same rescues are constantly saying they are campaigning to educate people??

I mean the fact that any education they do has to be outsourced to people FROM the industries they complain about should tell them they need to reorganize themselves.

donkeykong5

Well done and congratulations to all the amazing and caring protestors who went on the March today. Thank you all.

strandroad

strandroad wrote: »

The "heat" was 19 degrees. And still we had cooling mats and blankets, plenty of water bottles and bowls, all gladly shared.

It's amusing when you pretend that you care.

And still the poor dogs were panting and gasping. Get back up the yard. Animal lovers, how are you!

gozunda

strandroad wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0727/1065578-greyhound-protest/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/protesters-urge-end-to-state-support-over-horrors-of-greyhound-racing-1.3969744I was there. The protest was very well attended indeed, especially for a grassroots initiative unaffiliated with any particular organisation. We left the gates of Leinster House covered in collars (commemorating dogs killed by the industry) and our signs.
Most importantly the reaction from the bystanders was unanimously positive. Clapping, thumbs up, drivers stopping to help the entire column pass in one go, greetings from a tour bus driver. Not one bad word was heard. Many people coming up to pet the dogs, ask about them and share their disgust at what they learned from RTE. Many more protests scheduled at tracks now.

Well that was a significant turnaround compared to the foul mouthed tirade and abuse heaped upon workers and others at the Shelbourne Park by various 'protesters. The videos linked were the closest thing to incitment and intimidation I'd seen in a long time. I presume executive command and / or organisers or whoever of this one decided that that particular approach did more harm than good. I don't agree with any violence and not excusing anything - however that one certainly turned into a pushing and shoving match which was hardly surprising.

As for 'grassroots'. Certainly all the other shenanigans have been heavily organised over social media by one or more of the usual suspects tbh.

A dog will rarely refused to be petted imo ...

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

Discodog wrote: »

You are so utterly ignorant. That's how Greyhounds often look. My girl, that never raced & ate like a horse, was the same.

This hound looks the perfect weight. You should see three ribs, according to my vet.

ILoveYourVibes

How many vets and animal experts where there among the protestors? And by animal experts i mean people who took several years out of their lives to go get a qualification in something to with dogs or animals?

Why do protestors with zero experience think they know more than an industry with with experts and people with decades of experience?

And why can't they tell the difference between chancers who are con artists and the genuine industry? Its like saying puppy farms and dog breeders are the same thing.

And i am not pro racing or anti racing. I don't know enough so I would like to ask pro racing people this.

What training do you have to become a greyhound trainer? How are licenses issued? Do you need a certain amount of yrs experience? Do you need a qualification?

I would also like to ask the anti racing activists the same question. What qualifications and experience do you need to set up a dog rescue?

The only people with any training related to animals in the DSPCA seemed to be ISPCA Inspectors when i helped there. They seemed to know a lot about some animals and zero about others particularly horses. What training to they receive and is it adequate? Would it be equal to a team working in a professional livery yard for example or a greyhound yard?

My guess is the answer would be no.