RTE Investigates programme on greyhound racing industry

klaaaz

jackboy wrote: »

Interesting. The thread was reasonably quiet for a few days. Then late last night the attacks on the greyhound industry came with renewed vigor. There has been a lot of good debate on this thread but the attacks last night seemed frenzied and desperate.

It’s almost as if the protests at the tracks last night were much smaller than they had been and the word went around to ramp things up as people were losing interest and moving on.

Ok maybe that didn’t happen but there is no doubt that the majority of the public have moved on.

Get over yourself, only maybe a dozen people in the entire country might read this thread. The rest of your post is wishful thinking.
The majority of the public have the moral sense to abstain from cruelty to dogs for sport.

jackboy

klaaaz wrote: »

Get over yourself, only maybe a dozen people in the entire country might read this thread. The rest of your post is wishful thinking.
The majority of the public have the moral sense to abstain from cruelty to dogs for sport.

Only maybe a dozen people in the entire country will protest at the tracks in the medium term and even less in the long term.

klaaaz

jackboy wrote: »

Only maybe a dozen people in the entire country will protest at the tracks in the medium term and even less in the long term.

More fairytale thinking from the pro racer lobby. Some race meetings have only attracted a dozen people at best, most people oppose cruelty like mass slaughter to dogs for sport.

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

More fairytale thinking from the pro racer lobby. Some race meetings have only attracted a dozen people at best, most people oppose cruelty like mass slaughter to dogs for sport.

How do you explain this? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2640102799356135&set=g.101289163571381&type=1&theater&ifg=1

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you explain this? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2640102799356135&set=g.101289163571381&type=1&theater&ifg=1

Simple explanation - "content is not available"

gozunda

jackboy wrote: »

Interesting. The thread was reasonably quiet for a few days. Then late last night the attacks on the greyhound industry came with renewed vigor. There has been a lot of good debate on this thread but the attacks last night seemed frenzied and desperate.

It’s almost as if the protests at the tracks last night were much smaller than they had been and the word went around to ramp things up as people were losing interest and moving on.

Ok maybe that didn’t happen but there is no doubt that the majority of the public have moved on.

Tbh I think the sudden surge of interest stank of desperation as the hyperbole and screaming hasn't quite hit it's intended mark tbh.

What should be acknowledged is that this is not by any means majority of ordinary people. I believe Maryanne touched on this when she referred to the those who suggest it's ok for mosquitos to be allowed to feed off humans and that all cows should be rescued etc. The usual extreme plant advocates etc seem to make a habit of this kind of thing and funnily see posters as a target for personal style comments such as above. Even those fully supportive of high animal welfare etc. But unfortunately none of that suits the endless propaganda of the few that all animal use is supposedly 'abuse' and that includes keeping domestic animals. Greyhounds are seen as an easy target to promote many of these type of ideas imo.

Have spoke with over 60 relatives about this and the consensus is that nights out at the track are over. For good.

Plenty of workplace discussion, after the program, and unanimous decisions made to never have work nights at the dogs again.

Colleagues just want to go out and have a good time. Seems the venue isn’t that important. The idea of a night at the dogs is now socially tainted.

Nobody wants to be involved in the pain and misery that it brings to the dogs involved.

Was really great to hear from so many different people and how much it impacted them.

The reality is they will have plenty of great nights out but without financially supporting the pain and misery for the poor dogs.

Social change can be really uplifting.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Have spoke with over 60 relatives about this and the consensus is that nights out at the track are over. For good.

Plenty of workplace discussion, after the program, and unanimous decisions made to never have work nights at the dogs again.

Colleagues just want to go out and have a good time. Seems the venue isn’t that important. The idea of a night at the dogs is now socially tainted.

Nobody wants to be involved in the pain and misery that it brings to the dogs involved.

Was really great to hear from so many different people and how much it impacted them.

The reality is they will have plenty of great nights out but without financially supporting the pain and misery for the poor dogs.

Social change can be really uplifting.

I’ve spoken to about 5 relatives about this and the general consensus is that gullible people will believe anything or just agree with someone preaching loudly at them for the sake of a quiet life but really carrying on as normal.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’ve spoken to about 5 relatives about this and the general consensus is that gullible people will believe anything or just agree with someone preaching loudly at them for the sake of a quiet life but really carrying on as normal.

Ah right.

Very different conversations to what I’ve had so.

You must know a lot of gullible people because you keep talking about them.

‘There’s something about that guy that I really hate about myself’

There’s a few words of wisdom for ya.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah right.

Very different conversations to what I’ve had so.

You must know a lot of gullible people because you keep talking about them.

‘There’s something about that guy that I really hate about myself’

There’s a few words of wisdom for ya.

I suppose that the difference is that they understand greyhounds as we were reared with them. We know how well they’re looked after.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah right.
Very different conversations to what I’ve had so.
You must know a lot of gullible people because you keep talking about them. ‘There’s something about that guy that I really hate about myself’
There’s a few words of wisdom for ya.

Why the go at greyhound owners and others in another country and who you know nothing about? Tbh Theres not much wisdom in poking a whole bunch of people for answers here when the mind is already set ...

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

To allow an easy comparison we are adding the current figures for 2018 published by the IGB:

2344 litters x app. 6 pups =14.064
Irish racing pool: 3.600
English racing pool: 6.500
Coursing: 318 litters x app. 6 pups per litter = 1.908
IRGT: 1000
5% natural death rate of pups: 700
13.708 Greyhounds accounted for.

Unfortunately this is a translation from a German site, so my questions might be better answered if I could read German. But, I believe this is a mis-counting of what 'racing pool' means. I believe it means 'currently racing', which I think matches numbers put out elsewhere (about 3600 active racing greyhounds). The *problem* I have with this accounting, is that 10,100 greyhounds per year might be in the pool, but they race for several years, that is, there's not a whole new pools worth entered each year, so using that 10,100 number to deduct from the (14,064 + 1,908 or 15,972) whelped each year is disingenuous. Further, that assumes the entirety of the 6500 in the UK pool are new dogs exported to England each year.

Is that what's being said? If in fact 15,000 dogs are, well, consumed each year by the racing pool, as only a percentage of the dogs 'make the grade', let's say 50% , then something like 30,000 dogs are being whelped each year as 'candidates.'

So, if someone can clarify exactly what the 'pool' means and the probability of any given pup ending up all the way into the pool (birth, rearing, training, competing I suppose till it grades out well enough), then maybe we can talk numbers.

Until then, I don't think these numbers pass muster.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Unfortunately this is a translation from a German site, so my questions might be better answered if I could read German. But, I believe this is a mis-counting of what 'racing pool' means. I believe it means 'currently racing', which I think matches numbers put out elsewhere (about 3600 active racing greyhounds). The *problem* I have with this accounting, is that 10,100 greyhounds per year might be in the pool, but they race for several years, that is, there's not a whole new pools worth entered each year, so using that 10,100 number to deduct from the (14,064 + 1,908 or 15,972) whelped each year is disingenuous. Further, that assumes the entirety of the 6500 in the UK pool are new dogs exported to England each year.

Is that what's being said? If in fact 15,000 dogs are, well, consumed each year by the racing pool, as only a percentage of the dogs 'make the grade', let's say 50% , then something like 30,000 dogs are being whelped each year as 'candidates.'

So, if someone can clarify exactly what the 'pool' means and the probability of any given pup ending up all the way into the pool (birth, rearing, training, competing I suppose till it grades out well enough), then maybe we can talk numbers.

Until then, I don't think these numbers pass muster.

Pups don’t race until they’re roughly 18 months old. That’s when they enter the race pool until they finish racing.
Greyhounds don’t live forever. Very few live longer than 10 years. One of the problems with numbers stems from the lack of people informing the stud book when a greyhound dies.
There are 42 different race grades over many distances, so plenty for all abilities.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Pups don’t race until they’re roughly 18 months old. That’s when they enter the race pool until they finish racing.
Greyhounds don’t live forever. Very few live longer than 10 years. One of the problems with numbers stems from the lack of people informing the stud book when a greyhound dies.
There are 42 different race grades over many distances, so plenty for all abilities.

Thanks for answering. So, the racing pool mentioned in your linked article is dogs 18 months and older? Then I'm correct in assuming that the 15,000 born each year don't go into that pool until midway through the following year?

And I think you've said they're really not 'full time' till 3 years of age?

Anyway, would love to see if someone could define 'racing pool' as was used in the article and link to the actual data. The article mentions 2018 IGB data, what are they referring to?

Knowing the definition of 'racing pool' as used in that article would really help understand what the number of dogs is, per year, that go into that year's racing pool, versus dogs on hand (born that year or not yet old enough to join.) Likewise, the number of dogs leaving the racing pool per year too, through retirement from racing.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Thanks for answering. So, the racing pool mentioned in your linked article is dogs 18 months and older? Then I'm correct in assuming that the 15,000 born each year don't go into that pool until midway through the following year?

And I think you've said they're really not 'full time' till 3 years of age?

Anyway, would love to see if someone could define 'racing pool' as was used in the article and link to the actual data. The article mentions 2018 IGB data, what are they referring to?

Knowing the definition of 'racing pool' as used in that article would really help understand what the number of dogs is, per year, that go into that year's racing pool, versus dogs on hand (born that year or not yet old enough to join.) Likewise, the number of dogs leaving the racing pool per year too, through retirement from racing.

In my opinion, the term racing pool refers to dogs actually qualified and available for racing. At any one time there would be hundreds of bitches not in that pool for up to 6 months at a time as they would be in season. Bitches cannot race or be exercised, galloped or trialed for 12 weeks and it could take another 12 to get them race fit.
So, you see, there are many innocent ways that greyhounds could be unaccounted for.

Tilikum17

gozunda wrote: »

Why the go at greyhound owners and others in another country and who you know nothing about? Tbh Theres not much wisdom in poking a whole bunch of people for answers here when the mind is already set ...

How’s the farmer strike going for you?

Not one post in that thread from you, yet you spend night after night in this thread

Explain than.

gozunda

Tilikum17 wrote: »

How’s the farmer strike going for you?Not one post in that thread from you, yet you spend night after night in this thread Explain than.

Lol. Are you seriously dictating as to where posters should or shouldn't post?! Really?
No one owes you an explanation despite any sense of entitlement otherwise. But Afaik there is a prohibition in this thread on brining up threads from other forums. You might want to check on that...

Tbh must have rattled something to merrit such solicitude . I think we can safely say that greyhound racing is safe if this exemplifies the type of reaction tbh.

On topic - what do you actually think of the proposals which have been put forward so far? What's your opinion?

ILoveYourVibes

klaaaz wrote: »

More fairytale thinking from the pro racer lobby. Some race meetings have only attracted a dozen people at best, most people oppose cruelty like mass slaughter to dogs for sport.

I think most people are savvy enough to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

As exposed by German Greyhound Trainers the figures from the program seem very dishonest.

Now having said that.

The vet who was interviewed as an expert on doping in greyhound racing is in a relationship with RTE employee - were no independent experts available?

The vet recalls several cases of heavily doped dogs being brought to his surgery, but he fails to mention when these incidents occurred or if they were reported. Since 2005 no dog has tested positive for EPO during official tests by the IGP.

Anyone near the greyhound industry knows doping is an issue. I hope the public are savvy enough to know that too.

klaaaz

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think most people are savvy enough to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

As exposed by German Greyhound Trainers the figures from the program seem very dishonest.

Now having said that.

An anonymous post by a foreign poster on a foreign site in a foreign country not known for its greyhound industry, not a very savvy news source is it? Grain of salt indeed.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Anyone near the greyhound industry knows doping is an issue. I hope the public are savvy enough to know that too.

Well, have you told the punters yet that they have been duped on their bets due to doped up greyhounds winning and losing races? There must be lawsuits abound!

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

An anonymous post by a foreign poster on a foreign site in a foreign country not known for its greyhound industry, not a very savvy news source is it? Grain of salt indeed.



Well, have you told the punters yet that they have been duped on their bets due to doped up greyhounds winning and losing races? There must be lawsuits abound!

Lawsuits surrounding a couple of doping cases are still ongoing. Which is a pity as it’s damaging the name of the sport that has taken great strides in its anti doping measures. This is one area that the IGB needs to tighten up on.

ILoveYourVibes

klaaaz wrote: »

An anonymous post by a foreign poster on a foreign site in a foreign country not known for its greyhound industry, not a very savvy news source is it? Grain of salt indeed.

The figures don't make sense.

Igotadose

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The figures don't make sense.

They make about as much sense as the link from the German site. The notion of 'racing pool' is vague there, and key to their 'refutation' of the IGB-supplied statistics.

ILoveYourVibes

Igotadose wrote: »

They make about as much sense as the link from the German site. The notion of 'racing pool' is vague there, and key to their 'refutation' of the IGB-supplied statistics.

Their Key refutation was the IGB figures were not dogs counted. They were dogs estimated and wrongly estimated.

Igotadose

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Their Key refutation was the IGB figures were not dogs counted. They were dogs estimated and wrongly estimated.

Based on the vague notion of 'racing pool.' It seems to imply that number of dogs 'graduates' from racing each year, and is replaced by new dogs. I doubt that's the case. That's the analysis that really needs to be done.

I'm also still looking for the 2018 data used in that study. Anyone got a link?

And.... I'm still going to bang on about coursing. Valueless, awful sport, end it today, nothing justifies a sport that is absolutely an exercise in animal cruelty.

ILoveYourVibes

Igotadose wrote: »

Based on the vague notion of 'racing pool.' It seems to imply that number of dogs 'graduates' from racing each year, and is replaced by new dogs. I doubt that's the case. That's the analysis that really needs to be done.

I'm also still looking for the 2018 data used in that study. Anyone got a link?

And.... I'm still going to bang on about coursing. Valueless, awful sport, end it today, nothing justifies a sport that is absolutely an exercise in animal cruelty.

Its simple you have to count the dogs. That's all. Don't make up stuff don't parlay out of it.

You have to count the actual dogs. That is the only number that matters.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Based on the vague notion of 'racing pool.' It seems to imply that number of dogs 'graduates' from racing each year, and is replaced by new dogs. I doubt that's the case. That's the analysis that really needs to be done.

I'm also still looking for the 2018 data used in that study. Anyone got a link?

And.... I'm still going to bang on about coursing. Valueless, awful sport, end it today, nothing justifies a sport that is absolutely an exercise in animal cruelty.

That report was published in 2017, so 2018 figures couldn’t have been used.

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

Lawsuits surrounding a couple of doping cases are still ongoing. Which is a pity as it’s damaging the name of the sport that has taken great strides in its anti doping measures. This is one area that the IGB needs to tighten up on.

How about the regular "traditional" punters who betted for years on races to find out there was doping involved in their bets?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

My brother and several of his friends worked at shelbourne park for years.

On some occasions punters threatened their lives because of such suspicions. Or because simply a bet was misplaced.

They had to be escorted home by the guards. That actually happened to my brother once because the punter left it too late to place the bet and he had to refuse him. He went mental. The dog won. It was his own fault. He wanted to blame everyone else.

It happens. Its not funny. Also as far as i know there are always dozens of ongoing cases regarding betting not only in greyhounds paddy power betfair you name it. They are coming out the wazoo with lawsuits. Most of them bs. But a couple of genuine ones.

Another supposed anecdote, you're a classic in providing them. Many punters would have a legal basis to sue based on doping, dogs have won(and lost) races while drugged up.

One of the many cases come to mind https://www.thejournal.ie/clonbrien-hero-cocaine-positive-test-3596958-Sep2017/ a dog found 3 times to be on cocaine at separate meetings

Champion greyhound tests positive for cocaine three times

THE IRISH GREYHOUND Board (IGB) has confirmed that the winner of one of the biggest races in Ireland’s racing calendar has tested positive for cocaine.

Clonbrien Hero, who won the prestigious Irish Laurels, was found to have traces of the Class A drug on three separate occasions this year.

The failed tests were carried out at Cork Greyhound Stadium on 24 June, 1 July and 22 July. The dog is owned by Kay Murphy and trained by Graham Holland.

The July 22 test was carried out at the Laurels final which Clonbrien Hero won comfortably in 28 seconds. The prize money for winning the race was €30,000.

Imagine that you're a regular punter betting on the big stakes and yet you were cheated by greyhound owners of your hard earned money?

ILoveYourVibes

Another supposed anecdote, you're a classic in providing them. Many punters would have a legal basis to sue based on doping, dogs have won(and lost) races while drugged up

I know. I also know punters. That is no anecdote its hard experience. And here is advice from someone with experience. Don't get involved with hard punters.

I mean greyhound protestors getting involved with punters would be possible the worst thing you could do.

And yes they have a legal basis for suing when dogs are drugged. It doesn't stop them suing for everything and the kitchen sink as well though. Compo culture.

klaaaz

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I know. I also know punters. That is no anecdote its hard experience. And here is advice from someone with experience. Don't get involved with hard punters.

I mean greyhound protestors getting involved with punters would be possible the worst thing you could do.

What's so hard about punters, care to elaborate?

klaaaz

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

FACE PALM.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Why they are lovely Klaaz. Gentle people. Straight forward people ...no drama there at all.

What you mean?