Lots of late flights.

IngazZagni

basill wrote: »

I would disagree. Its not "tightly managed" nor is it professional. 7nm separation is in no way tight. How far down the runway does the landing aircraft have to be before sleepyhead gives the next aircraft line up clearance then asks for "be ready immediate". Go arounds when traffic are within 2.5-3nm - come on that is amateur stuff. We regularly land at airports where we get land after clearances, also late landing clearances at a few hundred feet as we are coming over the runway threshold. Big boy/girl stuff not the amateur hour in Dublin.

And don't get me started about the arrivals process where the left hand isn't talking to the right hand. Track mileages? Can we expect to do the arc etc? And how many times do I get told to do the same arrival by the various approach controllers. What the hell else was I going to do? In fact if you just cleared me for the damn thing in the first place and told me to descend in accordance with it then guess what we would all do. Again thats what happens in most other airports in the world. 230kts with over 100 track miles whilst we are still in Scottish/London airspace is just amateur hour.

It’s not 7nm. 5nm is closer to the norm for mid size jets which includes a departure in between. I do think they have improved a lot recently. It seems it’s the IAA that are preventing them from adopting more efficient methods such as line up after and land after clearances.
Track mileage is not as important at DUB due to the point merge profile. The STAR altitude restrictions should keep most aircraft more or less on profile if given a shortcut.

With that said they are a lot more conservative than many airports in north Western Europe but so much better than lots of airports in the southern half of Europe.

It’s unfair to call 230kts with 100nm amateur hour. This is indicative of the severe capacity problems of the single runway at peak times. This may also be more fuel efficient for aircraft than coming in faster and then doing an extra round of the hold at a much lower altitude. you will hear German controllers slowing aircraft down that are heading for Heathrow to reduce their holding times.

notharrypotter

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’m surprised Ryanair and Aer Lingus in particular , accept the pathetic farce that Dublin airport runs! Why don’t they have far less “separation”? What impact will this new runway have on the kip ?

Curious as to what you define as "far less separation"?

Lapmo_Dancer

When you look at the annual passenger figures of other ‘single runway ops’ airports like LGW, BOM and even SAW, there is certainly scope for DUB to improve efficiency.

Tenger

I have to chime in here with another anecdote. Last Monday the missus was flying out of Dublin. (Going to Bordeaux) Using the South Gates, they were are boarded with doors closed. Then an announcement from the captain, they couldn’t pushback right away. (Runway in use was RWY10, I was watching FR24)
He stated that Dublin ATC were keeping them there for 40 mins due to congestion along the taxiways.
It was about midday on Monday this happened.

lfc200

Tenger wrote: »

I have to chime in here with another anecdote. Last Monday the missus was flying out of Dublin. (Going to Bordeaux) Using the South Gates, they were are boarded with doors closed. Then an announcement from the captain, they couldn’t pushback right away. (Runway in use was RWY10, I was watching FR24)
He stated that Dublin ATC were keeping them there for 40 mins due to congestion along the taxiways.
It was about midday on Monday this happened.

Had the same on Monday around 2pm, we were held on stand due to the congestion on taxiways. About 30 mins waiting.

Lapmo_Dancer

bikeman1 wrote: »

Is there a reason why dual departures does not continue throughout the day

No. If DUB was in North America both runways would be used with visual approaches being the norm and their airspace is statistically the safest in the world.

Boston for example can have multiple intersecting arrivals and departures with rwys 4L, 4R, 9 and 15R all in use at the same time.

notharrypotter

billie1b wrote: »

The ground controls, ie-The Pod in Dublin assign the gates, with no input from Ryanair, all the Pod know is that Ryanair are contracted to the 100 and 200 gates in Dublin and the Pod allocate them, when a gate is changed it’s down to the Pod due to the original stand being held up, works in progress, or multiple other situations. They change it and then contact Ryanairs station to let them know of the change, your flight could be boarding from gate 106 in Dublin and be changed to gate 212 within minutes of the boarding time, this is not done by Ryanair and we can only do with what the Pod assign us.
Using Dublin as an example there but it’s the same for most airports.

The "pod" are not air traffic control.

billie1b

notharrypotter wrote: »

The "pod" are not air traffic control.

No they’re ‘ground controllers’ hired by the IAA but don’t let that get in the way of your previous statement being incorrect.

LiamaDelta

Lapmo_Dancer wrote:

When you look at the annual passenger figures of other ‘single runway ops’ airports like LGW, BOM and even SAW, there is certainly scope for DUB to improve efficiency.

Larger aircraft can skew that figure a lot, looking at the number of movements per hour would be more accurate.

Lapmo_Dancer

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Larger aircraft can skew that figure a lot, looking at the number of movements per hour would be more accurate.

LGW had 58,000 more movements than DUB in 2018, with BOM having almost 100,000 more movements.

notharrypotter

billie1b wrote: »

No they’re ‘ground controllers’ hired by the IAA but don’t let that get in the way of your previous statement being incorrect.

The "pod" are employed by the IAA?
Since when?

You are confusing Surface Movements Control who deal with aircraft and vehicles with the DAA stand allocation unit.

BigMoose

I had the same on an EI flight to BHX around lunch time 2 weeks ago, all boarded then sat there longer waiting to leave than the thing spent in the sky.

Chris_5339762

Gatwick does have some high taxi times but they use their runway far more efficiently than Dublin. Line Up After, which I understand is "go onto the runway and wait after that flight there has past you and is landing".... well I just can't conceive why they don't do that.

Mebuntu

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Gatwick does have some high taxi times but they use their runway far more efficiently than Dublin. Line Up After, which I understand is "go onto the runway and wait after that flight there has past you and is landing".... well I just can't conceive why they don't do that.

In the (distant) past that was the everyday norm at DUB:

"Shamrock xxx do you have the landing company 737 in sight"

"We have him in sight, shamrock xxx"

"Shamrock xxx Behind the landing 737 line up and wait"

"Behind the landing 737 line up and wait, shamrock xxx"


I'm amazed to hear that this procedure is not being used nowadays. Why was it dropped?

California Dreamer

At this stage it must be 10+ years ago but was the DAA premature in closing 11/29?

EchoIndia

Mebuntu wrote: »

In the (distant) past that was the everyday norm at DUB:

"Shamrock xxx do you have the landing company 737 in sight"

"We have him in sight, shamrock xxx"

"Shamrock xxx Behind the landing 737 line up and wait"

"Behind the landing 737 line up and wait, shamrock xxx"


I'm amazed to hear that this procedure is not being used nowadays. Why was it dropped?

In those days Aer Lingus was the majority carrier and traffic was not heavy by today's standards. ATC was more relaxed and there was less emphasis on absolute standardisation. Use of airline callsigns was rather less rigorous and ATC would, for example, sometime just address a flight as "169" rather than "Aer Lingus 169" (this was in the pre-Shamrock callsign era, other than for Atlantic services). Conditional clearances were not a problem.

Dublin has more recently had a few scares with aircraft passing the holding point without permission, such as this: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=145487 There was also a case where a helicopter crossed the runway as a Learjet was taking off. http://www.aaiu.ie/node/251 Many years ago an Air France 747 followed a non-jet SID in error, which led to the tedious requirement for aircraft to tell Clearance Delivery "the first waypoint in the FMC". All of these seem to have led to a more risk-averse approach by the IAA as regulator, with practices that were previously acceptable now discontinued.

dfx-

BigMoose wrote: »

I had the same on an EI flight to BHX around lunch time 2 weeks ago, all boarded then sat there longer waiting to leave than the thing spent in the sky.

Yep, several times on the same flight, 1330 ex-DUB. Boards on time at 1pm, not a chance of actually taking off until 2.15pm. You're on the ground in Dublin on the plane for twice as long as the flight.

Locker10a

EchoIndia wrote: »

In those days Aer Lingus was the majority carrier and traffic was not heavy by today's standards. ATC was more relaxed and there was less emphasis on absolute standardisation. Use of airline callsigns was rather less rigorous and ATC would, for example, sometime just address a flight as "169" rather than "Aer Lingus 169" (this was in the pre-Shamrock callsign era, other than for Atlantic services). Conditional clearances were not a problem.

Dublin has more recently had a few scares with aircraft passing the holding point without permission, such as this: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=145487 There was also a case where a helicopter crossed the runway as a Learjet was taking off. http://www.aaiu.ie/node/251 Many years ago an Air France 747 followed a non-jet SID in error, which led to the tedious requirement for aircraft to tell Clearance Delivery "the first waypoint in the FMC". All of these seem to have led to a more risk-averse approach by the IAA as regulator, with practices that were previously acceptable now discontinued.

Out of interest when did the EI callsign change?

EchoIndia

Locker10a wrote: »

Out of interest when did the EI callsign change?

I can't recall exactly. To complicate matters, "Shamrock", which had traditionally been used for transatlantic (Aerlinte Eireann) flights, was dropped for a period in the 1980s. Aerlinte existed as a separate legal entity from 1947 until 1993, when it and Aer Lingus were restructured into Aer Lingus Group plc. It may be that from that point on at least, "Shamrock" was the standardised callsign.

trellheim

In Dublin Airport Tower who employs the controllers ? I presume the IAA or is it DAA ?

I did read the presentation somewhere about them flow controlling the inbounds but as far as I can tell the problem is not here but more about improved runway management vs a risk profile .... but where's the open discussion

Locker10a

trellheim wrote: »

In Dublin Airport Tower who employs the controllers ? I presume the IAA or is it DAA ?

I did read the presentation somewhere about them flow controlling the inbounds but as far as I can tell the problem is not here but more about improved runway management vs a risk profile .... but where's the open discussion

IAA employ the controllers and run ATC in Ireland

IngazZagni

Mebuntu wrote: »

In the (distant) past that was the everyday norm at DUB:

"Shamrock xxx do you have the landing company 737 in sight"

"We have him in sight, shamrock xxx"

"Shamrock xxx Behind the landing 737 line up and wait"

"Behind the landing 737 line up and wait, shamrock xxx"


I'm amazed to hear that this procedure is not being used nowadays. Why was it dropped?

One of the holding points (E1 I think but it may have changed recently) would give you a poor view of arriving traffic and it certainly would not be visible to the pilot in the right seat. I dont think this procedure should be used here. However there should be no such problem with aircraft lining up along runway 16/34 or indeed for runway 10.

trellheim

OK thanks help me out here.

IAA run tower , do they run Ground as well ? A mention was made up-thread about Ground Controllers, is that an IAA position or is it an actual qualification

EchoIndia

trellheim wrote: »

OK thanks help me out here.

IAA run tower , do they run Ground as well ? A mention was made up-thread about Ground Controllers, is that an IAA position or is it an actual qualification

Ground Movements and Clearance Delivery are part of the ATC service and, depending on their rating, a controller may at different times operate in other positions such as Air Movements (Tower) also.

trellheim

Posts 31 and 38 in this thread refer to the POD who seem to be ground controllers in Post 31 and it is mentioned they are not, in Post 38. Which is correct ?

notharrypotter

trellheim wrote: »

Posts 31 and 38 in this thread refer to the POD who seem to be ground controllers in Post 31 and it is mentioned they are not, in Post 38. Which is correct ?

Surface Movements Control are IAA empl and are responsible for the control of aircraft while they are leaving the ramp and on the taxiways
The "POD" are DAA employees and are responsible for stand allocation.

Sully

Arrived around midnight last night. Busy flight but Airport only had one stairs available for the front only. That coupled with ATC delaying the outgoing flight, it appears they were looking to make up time on the way back but there was no shortcut or earlier slot available to get into Dublin

Bebop

Will the new runway ease this problem? Or is it an ATC issue?

Tenger

Bebop wrote: »

Will the new runway ease this problem? Or is it an ATC issue?

It should ease ground congestion.
One of the current issues seems to be a busy airport with all departures headng for a single takeoff point for RWY10 (or 2 close entry points if RWY28)
Add to that you regularly have arriving aircraft having to get directed thru the departure queue.

In theory the 2nd runway should mean less chokepoint traffic. But it doesnt do anything about the above mentioned ATC spacing procedure. Or those it affect the stupid chokepoint at the end of the T2 pier.