Demise of the Irish Derby

PhuckHugh22

Ryan Moore single handily responsible for the state of the Irish Derby!

STB.

PhuckHugh22 wrote: »

Haha ease it up there on the defense lad. I wasn't attacking you I was more referring to the absolute tripe posted here. Not really from you. But keep fighting the good fight. :pac:

Fwiw I think jockeys are the most over bet and over thought reasons for backing a horse.

Well you were quoting me and giving me betting advice as if I was talking out of my pocket ? Telling me to take it like a man. I didn't back AVD.

Seems like posters cannot discuss poor rides without the inevitable accusations of pocket talk ?

Ease up on the assumptions and the misdirected advice.

@MH. He is not useless. But his recent record with AOB is bad. Knowing the ultra competitive streak, I'd say he has had enough himself. He constantly finds himself on the wrong AOB horse!

PhuckHugh22

STB. wrote: »

Well you were quoting me and giving me betting advice as if I was talking out of my pocket ? Telling me to take it like a man. I didn't back AVD.

Seems like posters cannot discuss poor rides without the inevitable accusations of pocket talk ?

Ease up on the assumptions and the misdirected advice.

@MH. He is not useless. But his recent record with AOB is bad. Knowing the ultra competitive streak, I'd say he has had enough himself. He constantly finds himself on the wrong AOB horse!

Fair enough.
Also I don't think Moore is immune to criticism but every time he loses on a bleeding favorite people are absolutely up in arms. It's hard work listening to lads complaining about every ride when most of the time the horse ain't good enough anyway.

Didn't think it was one of his finer moments the last day myself but what about the rest of the jockeys. Don't see anyone complaining about them. Chris Hayes gave Madhmoon a worse ride granted his horse wasn't really good enough anyway.

Darc19

Good to see that the curragh have come out and said that the queues for bars and toilets were unacceptable and they will be addressing it.

But with under 12,000 at it, that must be embarrassing.

Imagine if they got the 20,000+ they expected?

Bring it back to a Friday evening night out @€;10/person followed by a sponsored family day Saturday and the Derby on Sunday.

STB.

PhuckHugh22 wrote: »

Chris Hayes gave Madhmoon a worse ride granted his horse wasn't really good enough anyway.

Don't get me started or you might get that pocket talk!

Simply was never given a chance.

Chris certainly didn't help by admitting afterwards that his plan was to follow Moore. There was an element of stepping into the unknown tripwise with Madhmoon, but you wont get the answer with hold up tactics and then trying to make up that amount of ground on any horse.

Anyway in the context of the thread title, it wont enamor the public to have two races within one

abarkie

Darc19 wrote: »

Good to see that the curragh have come out and said that the queues for bars and toilets were unacceptable and they will be addressing it.

But with under 12,000 at it, that must be embarrassing.

Imagine if they got the 20,000+ they expected?

Bring it back to a Friday evening night out @€;10/person followed by a sponsored family day Saturday and the Derby on Sunday.

HRI to look into attendances per Racing Post

Less than 11.5K on Saturday

https://www.racingpost.com/news/irish-derby-festival-set-for-rejig-as-horse-racing-ireland-chief-voices-concerns/388183

Shelflife

The problem with Irish racing is that they haven’t worked out that they are competing with so much more for the entertainment euro and people have stopped accepting being treated like ****e.

Many years ago I encouraged a group of young professionals to go to the Curragh on the Saturday , the day before the Derby.

They all paid in and were then surprised that they had to buy the program.

We managed to get some seats and bought some of the cheaper wine, half way through the meeting they said they had run out of the cheaper wine. Group wasn’t impressed and even less so when as we left the course we saw a supply truck with plenty of the cheaper wine inside.

They enjoyed the racing and the craic but felt it was expensive and quality of food and drink left a lot to be desired. I only mention that they were young professionals because at the time this was the profile of who the marketing were targeting.

€35 in, then buy a programme that’s close to €80 for a couple. And you havent had an overpriced drink or food yet. Punters aren’t looked after, syndicate owners aren’t looked after, if they want people to go racing they need to give them value for money.

PhuckHugh22

What sport are you going to where you are getting free programmes? Racing programmes are 3 quid pretty much across the board and if you don't want to buy it there are numerous outlets on your phone to access the races and up to date prices.

A programme to GAA games are a fiver and rugby are more again. Seems a silly thing to be complaining about.

tryfix

Saturday Racing Tips:


There was a truly bizarre claim from Aidan O'Brien on Thursday that Ballydoyle only entered Il Paradiso in the Irish Derby at 17:20 because owner John Magnier wanted to ensure eight runners and each-way betting on the race.

So woe betides anybody who withdraws their horse now...

In truth, it probably doesn't have any great betting appeal from that point of view anyway, as the three market principals are so dominant on form then something is going to have to step up 10lb on their previous form to mix it with the Epsom winner, runner-up and fourth. Or one of that trio to blow out.

Broome is the obvious candidate for each-players at around the 3/1 mark as it is hard to see him being kicked out of the frame - so only a small loss if he is placed and doesn't win - but it doesn't really get the punting fires burning.

That said, I took a three-figure flier with Sovereign in the Derby in the full knowledge that he could be sacrificed on the front end, and so it proved.

In the circumstances, he did well to be beaten under 10 lengths and maybe he makes some place appeal - he is generally around 50/1 in the marketplace - but we can let this Classic pass us by.

Good luck.

https://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/horseracing-tips/saturday-racing-tips-time-to-study-can-make-the-grade-280619-166.html


Maybe Sovereign deserves a little more credit than he's been given. According to a poster on the Betfair Forum tipster Tony Calvin had been told by Ryan Moore before the Epsom Derby that Sovereign was going to be a top horse. Now the Betfair Forum is full of BS artists but there would appear to be plenty of truth to the story based on Calvin's pre Irish Derby comments and he must be sick as a parrot that he didn't get stuck in on Saturday.

Always Tired

Moore does a blog on betfair, his entry on derby day didn't mention anyone but AVD, Broome and Madhmoon. He would normally at least mention the other horses from the yard if he thought they had any chance. Heck even when they dont he would at least say, 'he's up against it on form' or something similar but he didnt mention them.

I mean the race and result was bad enough don't go spouting nonsense now saying that Ryan Moore isnt surprised at all by what happened as he always thought Sovereign was a Derby winner in waiting. It was a shock result, it happens. They're all just wild animals at the end of the day, with midgets strapped to their backs. They let them go and something happens.

And 'tipsters' are the biggest BS artists going.

tryfix

*COUGH*

Epsom Saturday Racing Tips: Circus Maximus the Derby selection
It's Derby day at Epsom, and our big-price tipster Tony Calvin - fresh from tipping up a winner at 28.0 BSP last Saturday - is back with his thoughts and tips on the afternoon...


O'Brien outsider could run a big race


Reading Moore's Betfair column, it is quite taking what a positive mention he gave to Sovereign (he wasn't ruling out any, mind you), though you would surely be better off backing lightning to strike twice on your bonce rather than his sparingly-used jockey Padraig Beggy to follow up his win on Wings Of Eagles in this race in 2017.

Don't get me wrong, he was a 150/1 chance in a place on Thursday afternoon for a reason, and that is because he is rated just 105 and has been stuffed by his stablemate Broome in both starts this season and his only win to date came in a heavy-ground maiden.

But he travelled pretty sweetly for Seamie Heffernan when placed in both the Ballysax and Derrinstown, beaten only 3 lengths last time and not given too punishing a time once headed, and if ever a horse was bred to be suited by stepping up to 1m4f for the first time it is this stamina-laden colt.

https://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/epsom-derby-and-oaks/epsom-derby-day-tips-circus-maximus-the-big-race-tip-310519-166.html

Ryan Moore on the Epsom Derby: Sir Dragonet has a serious chance in an open race



While I have mentioned Sovereign, this is a good horse. I know people may dismiss him as he has been well-beaten behind Broome on his two starts this season, but he got a lot closer in the Derrinstown last time and everything about this Galileo colt and his pedigree suggests the step up to 1m4f will see him come forward again, and possibly by a good amount. There will certainly be worse each-way chances than him in this race, and at a very big price, as well.

https://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/epsom-derby-and-oaks/ryan-moore-on-the-epsom-derby-serious-chance-on-sir-dragonet-300519-368.html

Kid Charlemagne

I'm no rocket scientist but whoever thought substituting a Sunday race day with a Thursday one was clearly a right thicko.

IAMAMORON

Anyone posting links of Ryan Moore tipping Sovereign should be getting reported to FannyWank.

Aftertiming is not appreciated.

Always Tired

So, you think posting a lukewarm mention for Sovereign from the English Derby day, in a post where Moore is actually tipping up Sir Dragonet (another fav who he never even got close on) is supporting your case for Moore having an inkling that he would win the Irish Derby?

Mmkay.

Pretty much all Ballydoyle runners are winners in waiting in this day and age, you don't have to be Nostradamus to say they have ability to win. He didn't mention him on Saturdays post at all which like I said is rare, and there was no money for him. No one in the yard or anywhere thought it would happen that day. It was a farce of a race but still, Moore was dead wrong about both who he thought would win and how he should ride the horse, like he did on Pink Dogwood, Southern France, Fleeting etc the list goes on. Just stop with this nonsense, his assesments of horses ability are as bad as his riding lately, if either were up to snuff he wouldn't be getting beat on almost every favored horse for the past month.

Next you'll be telling me he also knew Wings of Eagles would win the Derby last year at 40/1, and wasn't surprised at all when he got stuffed on the fav by him as well.

Always Tired

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Anyone posting links of Ryan Moore tipping Sovereign should be getting reported to FannyWank.

Aftertiming is not appreciated.

It's not even a tip from the day he won, it's a desperate reach to support his dopey stance that Moore wasn't totally clueless.

tryfix

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Anyone posting links of Ryan Moore tipping Sovereign should be getting reported to FannyWank.

Aftertiming is not appreciated.

I had to show the evidence that Moore let Sovereign win because he was obviously on the Winner. :pac::D:)

tryfix

Always Tired wrote: »

It's not even a tip from the day he won, it's a desperate reach to support his dopey stance that Moore wasn't totally clueless.

You were the one who wrongly said that both the tipster and Moore said nothing about Sovereign. You could try having the class to admit when you're wrong.


The only thing that I was pointing out was that there were some in Coolmore ( Moore ) who thought enough of this horse to think that he could be good enough to place in a Derby. In other words Sovereign isn't a complete donkey.

tryfix

Always Tired wrote: »

So, you think posting a lukewarm mention for Sovereign from the English Derby day, in a post where Moore is actually tipping up Sir Dragonet (another fav who he never even got close on) is supporting your case for Moore having an inkling that he would win the Irish Derby?

Mmkay.

Pretty much all Ballydoyle runners are winners in waiting in this day and age, you don't have to be Nostradamus to say they have ability to win. He didn't mention him on Saturdays post at all which like I said is rare, and there was no money for him. No one in the yard or anywhere thought it would happen that day. It was a farce of a race but still, Moore was dead wrong about both who he thought would win and how he should ride the horse, like he did on Pink Dogwood, Southern France, Fleeting etc the list goes on. Just stop with this nonsense, his assesments of horses ability are as bad as his riding lately, if either were up to snuff he wouldn't be getting beat on almost every favored horse for the past month.

Next you'll be telling me he also knew Wings of Eagles would win the Derby last year at 40/1, and wasn't surprised at all when he got stuffed on the fav by him as well.

Strawman nonsense....


Below is a pre Derby post of mine on Ryan Moore and what I thought of his chances in the Irish Derby.

tryfix wrote: »

Don't think Ryan won on Magna Grecia, so maybe you're down to two but he did win on Cirrus Maximus so back up to 3.


I genuinely wince when I see him on a horse that I want to back.

AVD has the right package of class and form for the Derby.

Madhmoon doesn't convince me over 12f and I'd love Broome to win but he's got to improve.

Earendil

Always Tired wrote: »

So, you think posting a lukewarm mention for Sovereign from the English Derby day, in a post where Moore is actually tipping up Sir Dragonet (another fav who he never even got close on) is supporting your case for Moore having an inkling that he would win the Irish Derby?

Mmkay.

Pretty much all Ballydoyle runners are winners in waiting in this day and age, you don't have to be Nostradamus to say they have ability to win. He didn't mention him on Saturdays post at all which like I said is rare, and there was no money for him. No one in the yard or anywhere thought it would happen that day. It was a farce of a race but still, Moore was dead wrong about both who he thought would win and how he should ride the horse, like he did on Pink Dogwood, Southern France, Fleeting etc the list goes on. Just stop with this nonsense, his assesments of horses ability are as bad as his riding lately, if either were up to snuff he wouldn't be getting beat on almost every favored horse for the past month.

Next you'll be telling me he also knew Wings of Eagles would win the Derby last year at 40/1, and wasn't surprised at all when he got stuffed on the fav by him as well.

Unbunch your knickers man.

padraig47

never let a rugby person run a racecourse

IAMAMORON

Bullwall

Handicapper has given Sovereign a rating of 118 up from 105. AVD unchanged at 118 .

The Tetrarch

Race meetings at The Curragh in August.
Fri, 9th August, 2019 (E)
Fri, 16th August, 2019 (E)
Fri, 23rd August, 2019 (E)
Fri, 30th August, 2019 (E)

I prefer to go racing on Saturday or Sunday, starting at 13:30 or 14:00, when the sun is out and the weather is fine.

maximo31

Been to the ‘new’ Curragh 3 times since it opened including the Derby on Saturday.
No doubt it’s a fine building but it’s definitely lacking something….
A few things I observed :
Official opening Sunday there was a weird eerie sound blowing through the new stand. Must depend on the way the wind is blowing as it wasn’t there last Saturday.
I’m not sure about the location of the bookies , just seems out of place someway.
Nowhere near enough temporary sales areas with tea / water, sweets , etc. The queues for the food and (mens) toilets were very long. Not good enough for a new build.
I wouldn’t be happy with the lay out under the new stand either. The Paddy Power set up is a disaster. It’s a small opening with the staff , who were doing a great job under extreme pressure, with people falling over each other to get to the counter. Weirdly there was 1 smallish TV showing the racing from other meetings that was in front of the betting desk so people watching the racing were in the way of the people trying to get to the counter. And to make matters worse the sound for the other races is down further where the PP prices are so you can’t even hear the commentary.
Seems to be a lot of wasted space in there. I would move PP into the open space like the Tote kiosks and put another bar in where PP is.
The bar upstairs was 6 deep at times. This opened out to a seated area which is great for the crowds except its covered so gets no sun and has a breeze blowing through it. Maybe glass could be put up at the side of the stand to block the wind.
There was a massive queue all day for the ATM in there while there was another ATM at the other side of the track that people didn’t seem to know about.
The parade ring is lovely but it’s hard to get a good view of the horses when it was busy like Saturday. Something like Cheltenham’s parade ring surroundings would have been better.
That’s just off the top of my head! I’m grumpy today! 😊

PhuckHugh22

Would go along with most of that maximo. The building looks great but the operations side of it is absolutely terrible. The queue for the toilets was a joke. So much so that i walked from the main stand to the owners/trainers tent any time i needed it. Which is another thing.
The stand was mostly empty above the main floor with a bunch of suites with what looked to be no one using them. I was there with a friend of mine who had a horse running and we had to walk to the other side of the parade ring to a tent for the owners/trainers bar/restaurant. Why not accomodate in one of the suites where there was nobody.
The seating section was also blocked off to anyone on a General Admission ticket with a small section for owners/trainers and the rest for different package/badge holders. They seemed to give up on this after a while as the stand looked completely empty and they seemed to let anyone into the seating area.
I had a look to see how much it cost to go to the restaurant for Oaks day and it is over €300 a head. For the love of **** what are they thinking. I used to love going to the Curragh but my god i will have to re-think going in under general admission if owners/trainers arent even looked after, for future meetings.

IAMAMORON

For € 300 I can fly to Newmarket for the day and watch it from there.

Clowns.

The Tetrarch

I was there for the 2000 Guineas.
The whistling stand was unbearable.

When I visited the toilet there was two toilet cubicles in the gents I visited.
Do they expect a crowd of about twenty at a race meeting?

The White Wolf

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I was there for the 2000 Guineas.
The whistling stand was unbearable.

When I visited the toilet there was two toilet cubicles in the gents I visited.
Do they expect a crowd of about twenty at a race meeting?

I was taken aback by that. I was also there at the Guineas where it wasn't exactly jammed, yet the toilet situation was still dire. I was expecting that to improved as part of the facility upgrade.

I have to say though it was still an improved experience was from last year's Derby day which was possibly my worst course experience ever.

PhuckHugh22

Tell me this is there another toilet in the main area of the granstand?
The only one i seen was on the first floor where there was about 6 urinals and 3 cubicles.

Was there one on the ground floor also? i did not spend to long down there apart from a quick glance.

IAMAMORON

PhuckHugh22 wrote: »

Tell me this is there another toilet in the main area of the granstand?
The only one i seen was on the first floor where there was about 6 urinals and 3 cubicles.

Was there one on the ground floor also? i did not spend to long down there apart from a quick glance.

That is the only one I saw... put it this way , there will be problems " further down the line"

tryfix

Sovereign on good ground 2m 31.5s
Latrobe on good to firm ground 2m 32.62s
Capri on good ground 2m 35.45s
Harzand on good to yielding ground 2m 38.05s
Jack Hobbs on good to firm ground 2m 34.93s
Camelot on soft to heavy ground 2m 43.96s
Australia on good to firm ground 2m 33.19s

IAMAMORON

I think if anyone was impressed by Sovereign you would have to be thinking about backing him for the ledger. Available at 10/1.

https://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/ante-post-racing/flat/st-leger/winner

I would be hoping Coolmore are thinking about loftier targets than the ledger for Japan? I was very impressed with his last two runs, I am backing him until he retires.

madmoose

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think if anyone was impressed by Sovereign you would have to be thinking about backing him for the ledger. Available at 10/1.

https://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/ante-post-racing/flat/st-leger/winner

I would be hoping Coolmore are thinking about loftier targets than the ledger for Japan? I was very impressed with his last two runs, I am backing him until he retires.

No need for Japan now for the Leger as to me he could be as class as St Nicholas Abbey if he stays in training.

Guess he goes for the KG next?

IAMAMORON

We don't know is the problem. He is around 6/1 for the King George.

It won't stop me backing him where ever he goes. He looks to have the best form, which is gas because you couldn't have fancied him after the Dante. He looks all speed off a strong pace so I can't see why they won't go back to Ascot. Particularly if he is still improving.

tryfix

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think if anyone was impressed by Sovereign you would have to be thinking about backing him for the ledger. Available at 10/1.

https://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/ante-post-racing/flat/st-leger/winner

I would be hoping Coolmore are thinking about loftier targets than the ledger for Japan? I was very impressed with his last two runs, I am backing him until he retires.

I'd be happy to take the 10/1 on him for the Leger just in case he's a good thing. I'd just be worried that they'd send him to the Curragh Leger instead of the Doncaster one because he's shown a liking for the Curragh that's hard to ignore. If he doesn't run between now and the Leger they can excuse him if he flops in one of the Legers on the grounds that he didn't see out the trip.


I'm immune to all the Japan fever...... He's already made a fool out of me by staying 12f well so hopefully he'll continue making a fool out of me by becoming a 12f champ. They might well send him to the Leger, they've sent 2 G1 Grand Prix De Paris ( next target for Japan? ) winners to win the Leger already so they're not afraid of the damage that a Leger win will do to their better horses and there's always their 4yo careers to get back to winning at 10-12f.

BumperD

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/racing/curragh-chief-executive-derek-mcgrath-confirms-departure-1.3956361

Appears all is not well

Darc19

We have a group from work going on Saturday and plan to bring chill bags with cans and Aldi's very handy 1.5l malbec pouch along with sandwiches.

Hopefully we'll get it through as the stories from the Derby were horrifying.

Anyone know if you can go out of the course and back easily? (that would allow a few drinks be kept in an icebox in one of the cars)

Motivator

Darc19 wrote: »

We have a group from work going on Saturday and plan to bring chill bags with cans and Aldi's very handy 1.5l malbec pouch along with sandwiches.

Hopefully we'll get it through as the stories from the Derby were horrifying.

Anyone know if you can go out of the course and back easily? (that would allow a few drinks be kept in an icebox in one of the cars)

Not a chance you will he allowed in and out with bags of cans or even cans full stop. If you’re caught with drink not bought at the track you’ll be escorted out and rightly so. The Curragh isn’t a music festival for Christ’s sake. I understand that you don’t want to be queuing for ages for a drink but I’d be embarrassed to walk around a racecourse with a bag of cheap cans under my jacket.

padraig47

all has not been well for awhile. The arrogance shown by Curragh management has been breathtaking. No answers to queries and repeated emails. They sold season tickets saying that there was an option to book seats for an additional 300 euro. The option was never made available to the public.

STB.

"Brian Kavanagh declined to comment when asked if he’d undermined McGrath’s position with his post-Derby festival comments. However he did say: “I wish Derek well and thank him for the work that he’s done.”"

LOL.

Brian Kavanagh is the HRI guy who was defending the deal done with Racing TV.

Heads in the sand.

BumperD

STB. wrote: »

LOL.

Brian Kavanagh is the HRI guy who was defending the deal done with Racing TV.

Heads in the sand.

Too long in the job time for change

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tds-to-quiz-horse-racing-ireland-board-on-ceos-pay-breach-423335.html

https://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/horse-racing-boss-wrote-email-asking-for-two-years-pay-after-contract-ends-35295861.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/horse-racing-ireland-chief-unsure-if-he-is-best-man-for-247-000-job-1.3001756

elderberry

Today the owners & trainers marquee they had to put in after the opening day was divided. A third was still serving food to the O&Ts and the other two-thirds was a public bar with two bars, loads of TV screens and even live music from a two man band in one corner.

Went in there twice during the day, after the Scurry and then watched the Ladies Derby there while following the golf for a bit. Less than eight punters in there both times, staff standing around looking at each other. Presume this was set up as a reaction to the derby queues but no idea how they expect people to find this from the main stand.

You also have the farce of all the Oaks runners being saddled in the old pre-parade ring which is completely hidden away behind the new one.

There was also filming going on for some TV show/Film. They had these extras in a group in the middle of the stand. They would start shouting and cheering before and during a race as if they were watching a head-to-head finish. Very distracting and even went on during the feature races.

padraig47

we can hope for changes under the new management. They deserve some time

Motivator

padraig47 wrote: »

we can hope for changes under the new management. They deserve some time

They really don’t. They spent €81m to get the track fit for purpose and had plenty of time to do it with what should have been the best architects and builders around based on the spend. Deserve some time to do what? Throw more good money after bad? They’ve thrown enough money down the drain.

The end result is abysmal. Yesterday was my first day in the new facility and it’s awful. Boring, soulless and not well equipped. Heads should roll over this and making McGrath the fall guy is plain wrong. Kavanagh is on the board and lounges around in an office 30 seconds drive away from the track. After all his carry on over the years, for him to throw McGrath under the bus is one of his worst stunts. I’m sure McGrath has his faults but he isn’t to blame for any of this, he had no power and no say whatsoever and anyone who thinks he does needs to shake themselves up.

Motivator

A further development today with the news that Pat Keogh from Leopardstown will take over from Derek McGrath with immediate effect. One would have to wonder what’s going on behind the scenes but one thing is for certain, McGrath has been well and truly hung out to dry.

Pat Keogh is a top man to be fair to him, he has done a good job with Leopardstown and apart from a few issues; pricing of food and drink vs the quality of the product received would be the main gripe I’d have with his management but if that’s all I can complain about then he’s done a good job. He’s a nice man as well but it’s very hard to see what he can do to fix the major problems at the Curragh. I think there’ll be a few heads rolling up there in the next few weeks, I’d say Keoghs appointment was sanctioned to weed out a few people.

theaceofspies

This will bring some life back into the place.



https://www.theirishfield.ie/news-smullen-rides-again-in-his-champions-race-481178/


Well done PJ Smullen. Hoping to get there to see the race.