Rent review notice

Zapperzy

Got an email today informing us of a rent increase, attached was a pdf letter which seems all above board except for the notice period. Notice has been given today 27th of June and the rent increase will come into effect on 1st of August. I looked up the notice period and they have to give 90 days notice.

They stated we'll also be receiving the letter by post in the coming days. It contained 3 comparable dwellings. We're in the house 26 months and this is the first increase. To be honest we were expecting worse so I'm ok to take the increase but I don't want to be paying it sooner than need be. The landlord is a massive group with property all over the world, owned by irish billionaires so I'm surprised to see them slip up like this, unless they're chancing their arm?

How do I go about questioning this with them? Or if I cause a fuss is there a possibility they might increase it further or worse evict us?

Not in a RPZ if that makes any difference.

dennyk

Being a big corporate landlord, it's unlikely they would try any such shenanigans if you push back on the effective date, especially if you do the decent thing and notify them of the mistake right away rather than playing some game yourself like waiting until August's rent is due and then going "oh no your notice was invalid, guess you'll have to try again, s0z m8!".

I'd wait until you receive the postal notice and see what date it has, as email is not a valid method of notice (and attaching a PDF doesn't make it so). It's possible they just had the wrong date on the note that they emailed you. If the postal notice also has an insufficient notice period, just ring them and let them know their effective rent increase date was not far enough in advance and they need to send you a new notice with an effective date at least 90 days in advance of when you receive the message in the post. If they give you crap after that, you could consider officially challenging the notice with the RTB, but that would likely sour your relationship with the landlord beyond repair, which might not be worth it over an extra month or two of additional rent.

The_Conductor

Honestly, just give them a ring and advise them that they got the notification period wrong, you're entitled to 90 days notice.
No real reason to play games.

Mad_maxx

I wouldn't hesitate to inform them of the mistake

4ensic15

I would pay the increase and after moving out, claim it back.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

I would pay the increase and after moving out, claim it back.

Why?
It looks like someone genuinely screwed up.
If the OP notifies them of their error- the get their 90s days notice- and they don't end up overpaying their rent and having to reclaim it back?

I honestly don't see why the OP wouldn't just pick up the phone, gently advise the agent that the notification period is incorrect and await a correct notice........?

The RTB themselves have said the greatest difficulty they have in prosecuting a case- is proving intent. Its hard to suggest that there is any ill intent in this case- someone screwed up- its been noticed well in advance- the sane thing to do is let them know so they can rectify it?

killbillvol2

4ensic15 wrote: »

I would pay the increase and after moving out, claim it back.

It's early yet but this may be the most stupid advice posted on boards today.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Why?
It looks like someone genuinely screwed up.
If the OP notifies them of their error- the get their 90s days notice- and they don't end up overpaying their rent and having to reclaim it back?

I honestly don't see why the OP wouldn't just pick up the phone, gently advise the agent that the notification period is incorrect and await a correct notice........?

The RTB themselves have said the greatest difficulty they have in prosecuting a case- is proving intent. Its hard to suggest that there is any ill intent in this case- someone screwed up- its been noticed well in advance- the sane thing to do is let them know so they can rectify it?

If the op pays the higher rent and there are subsequent increases, the subsequent increases will all be invalid. The op will effectively keep his current rent for the entire duration of the tenancy, albeit he will have to claim the excess back after the tenancy ends.

_Brian

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the op pays the higher rent and there are subsequent increases, the subsequent increases will all be invalid. The op will effectively keep his current rent for the entire duration of the tenancy, albeit he will have to claim the excess back after the tenancy ends.

That’s disgusting advice.

Dav010

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the op pays the higher rent and there are subsequent increases, the subsequent increases will all be invalid. The op will effectively keep his current rent for the entire duration of the tenancy, albeit he will have to claim the excess back after the tenancy ends.

Wow.

This certainly sets the bar high for the rest of the day.

CoffeeBean2

Sure it's always the LLs fault. Screw them whenever you can, and then act surprised if / when they return the favor.

Graham

Mod Note

let's try and keep the posts constructive and on-topic please folks.

Darc19

Surely if someone knowingly paid an improper increase with the aim of at a later date to get a refund of all increases over whatever term left on the tenancy, that would be considered fraud?

Or at the very least, obtaining an advantage through a knowing deceit?

4ensic15

Darc19 wrote: »

Surely if someone knowingly paid an improper increase with the aim of at a later date to get a refund of all increases over whatever term left on the tenancy, that would be considered fraud?

Or at the very least, obtaining an advantage through a knowing deceit?

What offence do you think is made out?

kirving

_Brian wrote: »

That’s disgusting advice.

But is it legally correct?

Darc19

4ensic15 wrote: »

What offence do you think is made out?

I don't understand your question.

4ensic15

Darc19 wrote: »

I don't understand your question.

You are saying something would be considered fraud. For that to happen someone must have committed an offence. What offence do you say it is?

Darc19

4ensic15 wrote: »

You are saying something would be considered fraud. For that to happen someone must have committed an offence. What offence do you say it is?

I still don't understand what your question is. Fraud is an offense in itself.

By knowingly paying an unauthorized excess in order to later claim refund of all increases is fraudulent.

If you want the exact criminal offence that someone would be charged with , then here it is

Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001. 6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

Dav010

4ensic15 wrote: »

What offence do you think is made out?

Stupidity? Not punishable by law. Tying up capital for years in the hope you get it back down the line is a silly risk to take.

4ensic15

Darc19 wrote: »

I still don't understand what your question is. Fraud is an offense in itself.

By knowingly paying an unauthorized excess in order to later claim refund of all increases is fraudulent.

If you want the exact criminal offence that someone would be charged with , then here it is

Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001. 6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

What deception are you saying is being carried out?

Dav010

4ensic15 wrote: »

What deception are you saying is being carried out?

Obviously, deceiving the property owner by agreeing to a rent increase, only to later raise a dispute for invalid notice to recover the increased amount. If the notice is invalid, it is beyond me why you would not dispute it immediately rather than tie up perhaps thousands of your hard earned cash by giving it to a ll in the hope that you will recover it later. I know banks pay tiny interest on deposits, but LLs pay none. It’s bonkers.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

4ensic15 wrote: »

What deception are you saying is being carried out?

Well, paying the rent and then claiming it back. I thought it would have been obvious?

Deception from the get go. Your advice is anything but advice.

Notify the LL of the 90 notice, simple stuff really.

4ensic15

Dav010 wrote: »

Obviously, deceiving the property owner by agreeing to a rent increase, only to later raise a dispute for invalid notice to recover the increased amount. If the notice is invalid, it is beyond me why you would not dispute it immediately rather than tie up perhaps thousands of your hard earned cash by giving it to a ll in the hope that you will recover it later. I know banks pay tiny interest on deposits, but LLs pay none. It’s bonkers.

The tenant is not deceiving the owner by paying what is asked of hi,
The owner is deceiving himself that he las got away with illegally increasing the rent. The whole point abount interest is nonsense. If there were subsequent increases they would fall and thus the interest issue would not arise. Furthermore telling the landlord how to legally raise the rent could well be very costly. The landlord will despise the tenant if the tenant frustrates a rent increase.

Fian

Kevin Irving wrote: »

But is it legally correct?

Doubtful.

There is a period during which a rent review can be "appealed" as unlawful, 28 days from the notice or the date on which the new rent takes effect. I do not believe that the RTB would entertain an appeal in respect of a rent review a number of years back, particularly on the basis that the notice period was deficient as opposed to an unlawful rent increase beyond the 4% limit. It is even less likely that they would revert subsequent rent reviews on the basis that one way back was technically deficient and an argument that therefore the base on which subsequent 4% increases were calculated was incorrect. If the rent review notice does not inform the tenant that there is an appeal to RTB to challenge the review open to him it would be more likely that the RTB would accept a late appeal.

However no legal advice allowed and anyway this does not appear to be absolutely black and white, but trying to be too clever and play games like this can backfire.

Graham

Mod Note

4ensic15, you've already dragged this thread off topic enough. Do not post in this thread again.

The OPs question is:

"How do I go about questioning this with them? Or if I cause a fuss is there a possibility they might increase it further or worse evict us?"

4ensic15

Fian wrote: »

Doubtful.

There is a period during which a rent review can be "appealed" as unlawful, 28 days from the notice or the date on which the new rent takes effect. I do not believe that the RTB would entertain an appeal in respect of a rent review a number of years back, particularly on the basis that the notice period was deficient as opposed to an unlawful rent increase beyond the 4% limit. It is even less likely that they would revert subsequent rent reviews on the basis that one way back was technically deficient and an argument that therefore the base on which subsequent 4% increases were calculated was incorrect. If the rent review notice does not inform the tenant that there is an appeal to RTB to challenge the review open to him it would be more likely that the RTB would accept a late appeal.

However no legal advice allowed and anyway this does not appear to be absolutely black and white, but trying to be too clever and play games like this can backfire.

I was at an RTB hearing 6 monthS ago. It was about a termination notice. The landlord said the rent was increased on a particular date in response to a question from the adjudicator. . The adjudicator found the termination notice was invalid but that the rent had been increased illegally. The landlord ordered to pay back all the excess rent even though the tenant hadn't complained at all.

Zapperzy

I received a further email the following day stating that the previous notice was incorrect. The new notice period was changed to the 1st of october. The landlord owns our entire estate and it seems anyone eligible for an increase is receiving one. I guess the billionaires have to do business.

Have also received notice by post so all above board.

Darc19

Zapperzy wrote: »

I guess the billionaires have to do business.

Have also received notice by post so all above board.

Shows as most people suspected that it was a simple error and corrected immediately.

As for the billionaires, many of these funds are stock market listed and as such its the pensions of regular people that benefit.

Though rents are stupidly crazy here at present.

geniejews

Zapperzy wrote: »

Got an email today informing us of a rent increase, attached was a pdf letter which seems all above board except for the notice period. Notice has been given today 27th of June and the rent increase will come into effect on 1st of August. I looked up the notice period and they have to give 90 days notice.

They stated we'll also be receiving the letter by post in the coming days. It contained 3 comparable dwellings. We're in the house 26 months and this is the first increase. To be honest we were expecting worse so I'm ok to take the increase but I don't want to be paying it sooner than need be. The landlord is a massive group with property all over the world, owned by irish billionaires so I'm surprised to see them slip up like this, unless they're chancing their arm?

How do I go about questioning this with them? Or if I cause a fuss is there a possibility they might increase it further or worse evict us?

Not in a RPZ if that makes any difference.

It seems that you have a number of choices here.
You could do simply nothing, keep paying your old rent and if you are taken to the RTB for rent arrears, the group will lose their case as the alleged arrears are based on an invalid rent review.
You have 90 days to challenge the rent review, hopefully when it is deemed invalid, your address may have been added to the RPZ areas.
Or on day 80, you could present it to Threshold who will write on your behalf to the group, stating that it does not comply with the legislation...Your choice

killbillvol2

geniejews wrote: »

It seems that you have a number of choices here.
You could do simply nothing, keep paying your old rent and if you are taken to the RTB for rent arrears, the group will lose their case as the alleged arrears are based on an invalid rent review.
You have 90 days to challenge the rent review, hopefully when it is deemed invalid, your address may have been added to the RPZ areas.
Or on day 80, you could present it to Threshold who will write on your behalf to the group, stating that it does not comply with the legislation...Your choice

The issue has been resolved and your advice was idiotic in any case. Try reading the thread.