Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

Igotadose

Bill Clinton: Helped make the GFA happen.

Trump: Trying to shepherd Brexit along with bait for the clueless Brexiteers, hasnt said anything about the GFA though.


One of many things that matter here showing Trump to be worse than we think

Seanachai

Leroy42 wrote: »

Talking down to them? Like how? By explaining the facts about climate change for example? Or telling them straight that coal jobs are not coming back?

Or that racism is not acceptable, that people should be treated equally and fairly, that healthcare should be more important to people than guns?

You think it is better that you get a conman like Trump to lie to them, but do it in a style they appreciate?

And if the role of the POTUS, or any PM etc, was simply to run the company then I would have some sympathy for your position. But they don't. he role requires them to cover the moral standing of the country, to be its leader in more ways that just as an economy. It should be about making the country better for everyone.

Do other leaders, such as Trudeau have issues? Of course, they are human and everyone has their issues. Are they anything like the issues that Trump has? Not even close.

The 'explaining' is coming from a place that assumes that the average person does not have the requisite moral compass to actually know when they are being racist, xenophobic, ignorant etc. It's the same school of thought that assumes that boys and men need to be told that rape is bad. The definitions of racism are also so arbitrary and hysterical that it just makes people numb at this stage.

The US citizens in the interior and South have an inherent distrust of big government and the authoritarian aspect of socialism. In order to take away their weapons any administration would have to ramp up that authoritarianism, this wouldn't work and would probably lead to secession\civil war.

Trump is putting money in their back pockets for them to spend as they please and have a shot at improving their lot while being left alone for the most part. This way of life is deep in these people's dna, they are not going to give it up through some social conditioning programme conjured up by academics in Berkeley. Just because they're not educated and are not academically smart doesn't mean they don't realise when they're being screwed.

I don't think we're ever going to agree where Trudeau or his counterparts are concerned, every time I see him speak I just think of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, I don't read his zany vision for the world as a hate-free utopia. I read it as just another version of a privileged upper class screwing those below them except in this one everybody's terrified of committing 'hate-speech'.

Professor Moriarty

Igotadose wrote: »

Bill Clinton: Helped make the GFA happen.

Trump: Trying to shepherd Brexit along with bait for the clueless Brexiteers, hasnt said anything about the GFA though.


One of many things that matter here showing Trump to be worse than we think

Clinton: Committed architect and guarantor of the peace process and GFA.

Trump to Varadkar: “It will all work out very well, also for you, with your wall, your border,” he said. “We have a border situation in the United States, and you have one over here.”

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Then why do "we" (US and Europe) need loads of immigrants to do jobs?

Because of the low birth rate. We don't need immigrant steel workers, coal miners and automotive assembly line workers. We need highly skilled immigrants to supply high tech companies and immigrants willing to work in the service industry.

Seriously, have you ever tried hiring people when Ireland is at full employment, it's a nightmare.

Quin_Dub

Seanachai wrote: »

The 'explaining' is coming from a place that assumes that the average person does not have the requisite moral compass to actually know when they are being racist, xenophobic, ignorant etc. It's the same school of thought that assumes that boys and men need to be told that rape is bad. The definitions of racism are also so arbitrary and hysterical that it just makes people numb at this stage.

The US citizens in the interior and South have an inherent distrust of big government and the authoritarian aspect of socialism. In order to take away their weapons any administration would have to ramp up that authoritarianism, this wouldn't work and would probably lead to secession\civil war.

Trump is putting money in their back pockets for them to spend as they please and have a shot at improving their lot while being left alone for the most part. This way of life is deep in these people's dna, they are not going to give it up through some social conditioning programme conjured up by academics in Berkeley. Just because they're not educated and are not academically smart doesn't mean they don't realise when they're being screwed.

I don't think we're ever going to agree where Trudeau or his counterparts are concerned, every time I see him speak I just think of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, I don't read his zany vision for the world as a hate-free utopia. I read it as just another version of a privileged upper class screwing those below them except in this one everybody's terrified of committing 'hate-speech'.

He absolutely categorically is not putting any money in their pockets. The tax cuts did not in any way benefit the low paid. Any possible miniscule increase in take home pay has been infinitely offset by increased costs and reduced benefits as he hacks away at legislation and federal spending on social supports.

He is the one screwing them over.

Seanachai

Christy42 wrote: »

Still not addressing the racism point. I mean you don't have to but it speaks louder that you don't.

I don't believe Trump is a racist, I think labelling him as such lessens the impact of the word, the same as some leftists calling him and others fascists. Are all the African Americans that support him in some sort of Stockholm Syndrome or are they just the dense people that we need to reeducate?

mcmoustache

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He absolutely categorically is not putting any money in their pockets. The tax cuts did not in any way benefit the low paid. Any possible miniscule increase in take home pay has been infinitely offset by increased costs and reduced benefits as he hacks away at legislation and federal spending on social supports.

He is the one screwing them over.

Hang on now. I heard that there was a woman who managed to afford a membership at costco with her tax cut and she was very grateful for it.

weisses

Seanachai wrote: »

I don't believe Trump is a racist, I think labelling him as such lessens the impact of the word, the same as some leftists calling him and others fascists. Are all the African Americans that support him in some sort of Stockholm Syndrome or are they just the dense people that we need to reeducate?

What are you when your walking down the street in Dublin and you tell someone from a different color to pack up and go back to their own country?

Stop moaning ffs

We abould stop using the term moral compass or any version of it.
Where are the god fearing pro life so called Christians in America today as this happens? This is not only on trumps watch, it’s his policy.
This is beyond heartbreaking. And all Americans are sadly to blame as they stand by and allow it happen

https://twitter.com/cbsnews/status/1159570171620671488?s=21

duploelabs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We abould stop using the term moral compass or any version of it.
Where are the god fearing pro life so called Christians in America today as this happens? This is not only on trumps watch, it’s his policy.
This is beyond heartbreaking. And all Americans are sadly to blame as they stand by and allow it happen

https://twitter.com/cbsnews/status/1159570171620671488?s=21

While we're at it, can we stop using the term Pro-life when referring to those 'Christians in America', they're Pro-Birth if anything, after that those kids are on their own, particularly if their skin isn't white

Christy42

Seanachai wrote: »

I don't believe Trump is a racist, I think labelling him as such lessens the impact of the word, the same as some leftists calling him and others fascists. Are all the African Americans that support him in some sort of Stockholm Syndrome or are they just the dense people that we need to reeducate?

I mean if it requires burning people at the stake that is a pretty high bar and allows a scummy behaviour. I am not sure the I have a black voter excuse really helps either.

The man obviously picked on the squad over the colour of their skin because that is what he commented about. Not their policies, just that they should go back to their own country because Americans don't look like them (hint: they do).

Also the birther nonsense. No way he jumps on that for so long, even promising proof at one point for a white president with a parent born outside the US (say Scotland).

serfboard

Seanachai wrote: »

The US citizens in the interior and South have an inherent distrust of big government and the authoritarian aspect of socialism.

The irony is that without the big-government-ordered socialism of tax transfers from the coastal states that they despise, those interior states (Kentucky for example) would be completley screwed.

duploelabs

Christy42 wrote: »

Still not addressing the racism point. I mean you don't have to but it speaks louder that you don't.

It's the general modus operandii of 'them' to run when challenged, or answer a question that was never asked in a hope to drag the conversation away

Seanachai

weisses wrote: »

What are you when your walking down the street in Dublin and you tell someone from a different color to pack up and go back to their own country?

In Trump's case what he said was stupid and incorrect, only one of the women is foreign born, in her case he was being a xenophobe.

Christy42

Seanachai wrote: »

In Trump's case what he said was stupid and incorrect, only one of the women is foreign born, in her case he was being a xenophobe.

Yes but he assumed the rest weren't because of the colour of their skin.

Did he even have an idea for where he thought they were from or did he assume they were bad because of the colour of their skin?

everlast75

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes but he assumed the rest weren't because of the colour of their skin.

Did he even have an idea for where he thought they were from or did he assume they were bad because of the colour of their skin?

Black people are criminals.

Muslims are terrorists.

Mexicans are invaders.

He should sell hats with "Make america white again". That's a much more accurate slogan for his campaign.

Seanachai

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes but he assumed the rest weren't because of the colour of their skin.

Did he even have an idea for where he thought they were from or did he assume they were bad because of the colour of their skin?

My read on it is that he must have known that they were US born, it would be a stretch to think that he didn't, esp Ayanna Pressley, unless he's got dementia. The 'go back to where you come from' remark was intended for Omar and he just made a balls of the statement.

He seems to be very sharp on people's profiles and backgrounds otherwise so I don't believe that he didn't know that most of the women are not foreign born.

Quin_Dub

Seanachai wrote: »

My read on it is that he must have known that they were US born, it would be a stretch to think that he didn't, esp Ayanna Pressley, unless he's got dementia. The 'go back to where you come from' remark was intended for Omar and he just made a balls of the statement.

He seems to be very sharp on people's profiles and backgrounds otherwise so I don't believe that he didn't know that most of the women are not foreign born.

OK , so he only meant to be a xenophobic racist misogynist pig to one woman not four??

And that makes it better somehow??

everlast75

Seanachai wrote: »

My read on it is that he must have known that they were US born, it would be a stretch to think that he didn't, esp Ayanna Pressley, unless he's got dementia. The 'go back to where you come from' remark was intended for Omar and he just made a balls of the statement.

He seems to be very sharp on people's profiles and backgrounds otherwise so I don't believe that he didn't know that most of the women are not foreign born.

Where on God's green earth are you pulling that from? The guy doesn't listen to his own security briefings, has gotten names of the towns he is visiting at that time wrong, and has even misspelled his own name on Twitter! That's nonsense!

Another mop and bucket post - out to clean up his sh1t after another debacle.

TomOnBoard

There's a well written article in the Washington Post today that explains what exactly the Trump "Drain the Swamp" chant was all about.

The main thesis of the article is that most of us would have thought that the "Swamp" referred to political hacks, lobbyists, crooked politicians etc. However, what the Trump campaign were actually referring to was the expertise -based ranks of civil servants who actually make the country work across all agencies and departments. The massive hollowing-out of agencies involved in regulation and science, including the EPA has been extended into the State Dept and Security services. People with expertise have been traded out for people whose loyalty is to Trump over country.

All this plays into the hands of rampaging industrialists who poison the environment as a by-product of their activity. It also plays into the hands of any/all foreign regimes who have traditionally been enemies of the US, as the State Dept and Intelligence agencies lose decades of memory and knowledge through people being sidelined or pushed out.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-is-draining-the-swamp--of-needed-experts/2019/08/08/7ec457e4-ba12-11e9-a091-6a96e67d9cce_story.html

weisses

Seanachai wrote: »

In Trump's case what he said was stupid and incorrect, only one of the women is foreign born, in her case he was being a xenophobe.

So if I say to someone of color to go back to their own country Im a xenophobe ?

What he said was stupid, incorrect ... and racist

Maybe the below article will give you some clearity

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

Christy42

Seanachai wrote: »

My read on it is that he must have known that they were US born, it would be a stretch to think that he didn't, esp Ayanna Pressley, unless he's got dementia. The 'go back to where you come from' remark was intended for Omar and he just made a balls of the statement.

He seems to be very sharp on people's profiles and backgrounds otherwise so I don't believe that he didn't know that most of the women are not foreign born.

Did he even correct the statement?

He tends to be terrible on facts. Why would he be different on people? I mean on most of his opponents he got 1 word and no further. All reports from meetings with foreign officials point to him not really knowing what is going on so I don't see why I would assume he was well up on their backgrounds.

If you have to jump through that many hoops for an excuse it just isn't believable for me.

Seanachai

Quin_Dub wrote: »

OK , so he only meant to be a xenophobic racist misogynist pig to one woman not four??

And that makes it better somehow??

I never condoned what he said and I said he was being xenophobic towards Omar, I'm questioning the official line that he assumed that the women were from different countries solely based on their appearance. It wouldn't even make sense in that case as he knows that US born citizens can look like citizens of any other country. He could have even just Googled them and saw their biographies.

Quin_Dub

Seanachai wrote: »

I never condoned what he said and I said he was being xenophobic towards Omar, I'm questioning the official line that he assumed that the women were from different countries solely based on their appearance. It wouldn't even make sense in that case as he knows that US born citizens can look like citizens of any other country. He could have even just Googled them and saw their biographies.

He knew exactly what he was doing - Dog Whistling to his base that minority immigrants are somehow less American than European ones.

TomOnBoard

weisses wrote: »

So if I say to someone of color to go back to their own country Im a xenophobe ?

What he said was stupid, incorrect ... and racist

Maybe the below article will give you some clearity

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

I wish that we could pin that article as a sticky on this forum. Anyone with an ounce of cop-on who is not totally suffering from Trump Delusion Syndrome must surely see the reality of his hatred, racism, bigotry or whatever the **** seems to underpin his (very scatty) thinking! As to those who excuse him, sadly that's simply because they are revelling in his indecency because they actually think the same! If you don't condemn such behaviour and thinking, then you own it!

Seanachai

Christy42 wrote: »

Did he even correct the statement?

He tends to be terrible on facts. Why would he be different on people? I mean on most of his opponents he got 1 word and no further. All reports from meetings with foreign officials point to him not really knowing what is going on so I don't see why I would assume he was well up on their backgrounds.

If you have to jump through that many hoops for an excuse it just isn't believable for me.

It's like the media assuming that Boris Johnson is stupid, Trump has a shallow intellect but that doesn't mean he's stupid. There was the bizarre statement about the American Civil War that shows some sort of jumbled thinking\verbal problem there also. People can be terrible on facts and remember somebodies name they met once twenty years ago.

I think he was either being coy to trigger the women or else his words just came out a**eways as they often do.

Seanachai

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He knew exactly what he was doing - Dog Whistling to his base that minority immigrants are somehow less American than European ones.

Possibly, I don't think that he was ignorant of their origins, his base is made up of a lot of different types of people from different backgrounds though.

listermint

Manic Moran wrote: »

Alternative option:

They don't fear her, but because she is both highly public (eg largest twitter following of any Congresscritter), and decidedly vocal about taking positions rather farther to the left, she is a perfect talking point for emphasizing to voters "This is what Democrats want and think" even if the Democrats in their area are far more moderate.

This is also why senior Democrats like Pelosi or Biden are dropping them down a peg or two. They know just as much as the Republicans (and Fox) that AOC's positions do not play particularly well where they need to win votes, and as much as they would like her not to be as visible in those places, the Republicans love her being visible. In other words, AOC is to Republicans as much of a weapon for them as Trump is for Democrats.

Thats quite unusual, because was it not on a Fox debate, where democrats went on an discussed her positions and the audience applauded them.

I think there is a lot of GOP money thrown into the ring making it sound like the average citizen is against Minimum wage of 15 Dollars or Healthcare for all or college tuition reform. But the reality is the majority are for it.

Similar to how a tiny tiny tiny group of people who own hundreds of millions of firearms get to soapbox about how 'American' gun owner ship is.


Its nothing but money driving these opinions, the stats dont back it up.

And the GOP is the major player in all of it, with bit part players in the Democratic Party too. $$$

Leroy42

Seanachai wrote: »

I think he was either being coy to trigger the women or else his words just came out a**eways as they often do.

Seriously, what rabbit hole have you gone down to think this is even a thing you should be saying.

That POTUS is trying to trigger anyone, never mind democratically elected representatives is mind-boggling.

He wasn't being coy, he was being racist. He has always been racist (politically anyway) and uses race to drive his support.

He treats Puerto Ricans differently that "Americans". He views immigrants as invaders. He sees all immigrants as rapist and crime lords.

Even after the shootings last week, carried out by white men, he somehow managed to get illegal immigrants into his tweet about the violence.

Whether he is in fact a racist, or whether like in many other things he is simply playing it up for political gain doesn't matter. We can only ever judge people by what they say and do, otherwise you are looking for some sort of thought police.

everlast75

Seanachai wrote: »

I never condoned what he said and I said he was being xenophobic towards Omar, I'm questioning the official line that he assumed that the women were from different countries solely based on their appearance. It wouldn't even make sense in that case as he knows that US born citizens can look like citizens of any other country. He could have even just Googled them and saw their biographies.

Obama and the birther conspiracy blows that right out of the water....