Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

StringerBell

vetinari wrote: »

Jaysus, Melania must be doing it for the laugh these days.
What a bizarre dress choice for the rain (and no bra).
Could she have looked any trashier??!

I didn't watch so obviously haven't seen but how bad could it have been though?

StringerBell

So going from reports (cause I am in no way looking at that thing) Trump was Trump, some ra ra, couple of gaffs, bit of cringe....but he didn't burn the stage down so obviously gets credit for that....cause that's where things are now.

Telling ya, when he's gone there is gonna need to be one hell of a bar raising needed as it surely couldn't get closer to the floor right now. Imagine, just imagine the political bean counters right now identifying and plotting the next candidate like him, only better. The same bull**** rhetoric, the same way to stir people up campaign wise, but actual deal making ability and a clear plan - not crippled by insecurity and narcissistic traits. There is now a blueprint.

Itssoeasy

When trump is gone there will need to be a deep clean done on US politics. I mean it wasn’t perfectly clean before Trump has made it way worse(or is less discrete about it) and the phrase “democratic norms” seem to be used as a way of showing how worse it’s gotten.

looksee

StringerBell wrote: »

I didn't watch so obviously haven't seen but how bad could it have been though?

The dress was fine, bit cutesy but nothing remarkable.

dr.fuzzenstein

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

DescriptionAlexandria Ocasio-Cortez Seems to be making a splash. Is she a future president?

If she is, so many people are going to absolutely lose their sh*t.
They're already spreading hate and lies about her at an alarming rate, the trolling is at warp speed.
A lot of old, white, conservative men are very scared of her.

hill16bhoy

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If she is, so many people are going to absolutely lose their sh*t.
They're already spreading hate and lies about her at an alarming rate, the trolling is at warp speed.
A lot of old, white, conservative men are very scared of her.

There are incredibly creepy sexualised overtones to the Republican hate campaign against her.

Quin_Dub

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And we have eye witness accounts of him snorting crushed Adderrall tablets.

As I said earlier, he's a dementia sufferer on speed.

All the stuff about how he is a lying racist cheating rapist is Trump 20 years ago. Now he is just the senile husk of a lying racist cheating rapist.

##Mod Note##

Enough of the conspiracy theory rubbish please

Igotadose

hill16bhoy wrote: »

There are incredibly creepy sexualised overtones to the Republican hate campaign against her.

Still too young. Gotta be 35. Personally see her succeeding Schumer in a few before trying for POTUS.

And yeah the tGOP old white guys have lost it over her.

Itssoeasy

hill16bhoy wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If she is, so many people are going to absolutely lose their sh*t.
They're already spreading hate and lies about her at an alarming rate, the trolling is at warp speed.
A lot of old, white, conservative men are very scared of her.

There are incredibly creepy sexualised overtones to the Republican hate campaign against her.

Yeah that video of her dancing while in college was meant to be the death nail to her political career but all it showed was she was a normal college student. I have to say the videos I’ve seen of her on the house committees she is very prepared and asks good questions. Her and Katie porter of California are doing great stuff in committees.

PropJoe10

Itssoeasy wrote: »

When trump is gone there will need to be a deep clean done on US politics. I mean it wasn’t perfectly clean before Trump has made it way worse(or is less discrete about it) and the phrase “democratic norms” seem to be used as a way of showing how worse it’s gotten.

I think its much more serious than damage to the US political system. Trump's rise has basically normalised extreme lying and false propaganda without any sort of consequence from public officials.

It's like he doesn't even realise the difference between the truth and lies, and doesn't care less about it - and neither does his "base". He's given the absolute idiot in society a voice that they've never had before - look at people now flocking behind the likes of Boris Johnson. Populism is a dangerous thing.

Kimsang

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Originally Posted by Kimsang
Fair enough you answered my question, I will indulge yours, even though I don't know where you're going with this. I want to state that I'm not a Trump supporter..

Does that make it better? Or does it not, in fact, confirm that he is a liar and a political troll?
Is it ok to say anything you fancy and say "only joking"?
I could say that I know for a fact that Kimsang is a drug addict, has been seen leaving a brothel without his pants and he likes to run over small animals in his car? He is a menace and should be locked up.
No, only joking, haha, let's all slap our thighs and laugh about it.
Because it's a joke, I get to say terrible things about you.
And I know that you're a shoplifter and fancy goats.
No seriously, I wish you well and I don't mean all these things.
See? All better and we're besties again. Buy me a pint?
Would it still be better if we were competing for the same position and I sank your bid with lies and trolling?
According to your logic, yes, it would be absolutely fine.
So don't complain if Trump's political opponents and the press smear him till something sticks, after all, all's fair and so on.
Or would you have double standards on that? Ok if your side does it?

12 likes for a guy who smears someone trying to give you guys understanding of the other side. No rebuttal. No mod action. Completely disingenuous horse tripe riddled with accusations. Its like the screechings of a 3 year old, while the rest of the class claps along. The level of discourse around here doesn't even belong in primary school.

Lies

Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.

Lies

No personal abuse. NEVER attack a poster. Attack the content of their post. (You can tell someone that their opinion is based on incomplete or incorrect information, but do not call them an idiot.)

and more lies

Keep your language civil, particularly when referring to other posters and people in the public eye. Using unsavoury language does not add to your argument. Examples would be referring to other people or groups as scumbags, crusties, sheeple, shills, trolls, traitors or saying that recently deceased people should “rot in hell” or similar. Repeated use of terms like that will result in a ban from the forum.

I get banned for quoting someone verbatim, apparently that's misrepresenting someone's views! But this is allowed.

Enjoy your echo chambers guys, you deserve it

Politics forum- ha! That's like calling North Korea the democratic people's republic of.
At least they have more integrity than this thread.

Kimsang Unsubscribes

Midlife

Kimsang wrote: »

12 likes for a guy who smears someone trying to give you guys understanding of the other side. No rebuttal. No mod action. Completely disingenuous horse tripe riddled with accusations. Its like the screechings of a 3 year old, while the rest of the class claps along. The level of discourse around here doesn't even belong in primary school.

Lies


Lies


and more lies


I get banned for quoting someone verbatim, apparently that's misrepresenting someone's views! But this is allowed.

Enjoy your echo chambers guys, you deserve it

Politics forum- ha! That's like calling North Korea the democratic people's republic of.
At least they have more integrity than this thread.

So long buddy.

If you want to start the other thread that discusses the stuff you want to discuss, I'd genuinely be happy to debate with you there.

It would also free you from having the issue of constantly siding with Trump, defending him and attacking his critics while expecting everyone to understand you're not a Trump fan.

Start it up, you'd fnd it way more beneficial. I'd start it but I'm not sure of the exact starting point that would work.

dr.fuzzenstein

Kimsang wrote: »

12 likes for a guy who smears someone trying to give you guys understanding of the other side. No rebuttal. No mod action. Completely disingenuous horse tripe riddled with accusations. Its like the screechings of a 3 year old, while the rest of the class claps along. The level of discourse around here doesn't even belong in primary school.

Doesn't feel good to get the Trump treatment, doesn't it?
So you're upset because I (to illustrate a point) posted some utter falsehoods to illustrate his tactics.
I did so, because you seem to have trouble understanding how Trump uses outrageous lies and insults to smear and discredit his opponents, and that this is something a fascist would do.
Your disingenuous mock outrage shows me that you don't want to understand that point.
Well, it may be entirely lost on you, but I don't strive to convince those who have no intention to engage, because it would be pointless anyway.
Gimme a like if you're still lurking to see if people noticed your dramatic exit.

Akrasia

RIGOLO wrote: »

except he hasnt done anything that is even remotely fascist ....

Eh. He's rounding up items of thousands mmigrants. Separating them from their families and putting them in camps where some of them are dying from neglect.

Not even remotely fascist....

StringerBell

It's an old trick that, and it works a frightening amount. Of course he has done things remotely fascist, of course he has authoritarian tendencies. Time doesn't need to be wasted debating plainly obvious facts.

This isn't to have a pop at anyone here btw just never fails to amaze how the same tactic repeated ad nauseum works so often to obfuscate and distract.

Christy42

Akrasia wrote: »

Eh. He's rounding up items of thousands mmigrants. Separating them from their families and putting them in camps where some of them are dying from neglect.

Not even remotely fascist....

Indeed. And declaring the media the enemy of the people (as Kimsang says it isn't all the media, just those that disagree with him).

Midlife

Trump hasn't done anything that is remotely facist?

That's actually a real comment.

I would challenge anyone to give an accurate working definition of the word 'facist' or 'facism' that deosn't remotely resemble the actions of Trump.

Militaristic? No.

Ethnic divisions? No.

What does facism mean Rigolo? What are the traits of facism as you understand them?

Professor Moriarty

Trump isn't a fascist. Politically, he's a populist with authoritarian leanings. Personally, he's an immoral bully. Anyway, for all it's failings, the US political system prevents Trump from becoming a fascist whether he wants to be one or not.

everlast75

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Trump isn't a fascist. Politically, he's a populist with authoritarian leanings. Personally, he's an immoral bully. Anyway, for all it's failings, the US political system *currently* prevents Trump from *completely* becoming a fascist whether he wants to be one or not.

I fixed your post....

pixelburp

The problem is that "fascist" is a catch all term that can mean anything from "bullying a-hole" right up to "embraces all Umberto Ecos checklist for Ur Fascism with gusto". It's abstract enough that the pedantic or exacting among us can plead hyperbole.

So purely in the political sense, no, Trump is probably not a fascist. He can't be said to buy into the mentality of ... I dunno, duty and fascination with sacrifice/death that typifies the fascist ideologies for instance; he's a businessman. He seeks money and name recognition above all. A CEO who is used to "ruling" his companies in the manner of the last authority. There's an arguable overlap between that style of management and the methodology of the authoritarian leader. He doesn't venerate duty, not to the levels of the Ur Fascist (lickspittles are fine though )

He has brought that to governance, and that's where the clashing occurs. All the checks and boundaries are clearly frustrating Trump, unused to oversight, and has encouraged a culture of resisting or even ignoring democratic norms. His is a disruption of the tacit agreement to, say, obey subpoenas during investigations - in the manner that ... ... fascists are known to do to establish power. Much or democracy is the social contract to obey the laws of governance, so ignoring them presents the slippery slope. Trump neither knows nor cares whether this presents as fascistic because he just wants the aforementioned money and name recognition (Irish golf trips on the public purse, or the insistence on making him the centre of attention at events).

So Trump is not a fascist, he's just heading in a direction that presents as fascist (and probably enables full blown fascists such as the Proud Boys to prosper).

Professor Moriarty

everlast75 wrote: »

I fixed your post....

Dunno. I think he's driven by narcissism rather than any grand vision for the country - which is usually what motivates fascists. Everything he does is motivated by image rather than power. He's not really interested in America or its people and he's not capable of seeing any big picture. It's all about feeling admired. Being a fascist would be too much trouble for him and beyond his intellect.

Igotadose

At some point one must question Trump as a 'businessman.' How many failures do you get? And it seems his 'business' is 'name recognition' that lets him get loans. He rarely turns profits - hence the lack of paying tax.

Maybe "Trump the businessman" really is "Trump the stupid clown who is good at fleecing the sheeple."

Until we see his taxes, we won't know if he's even a real billionaire (with money from his own profits, rather than loans from DB and Alfabank)

Professor Moriarty

Igotadose wrote: »

At some point one must question Trump as a 'businessman.' How many failures do you get? And it seems his 'business' is 'name recognition' that lets him get loans. He rarely turns profits - hence the lack of paying tax.

Maybe "Trump the businessman" really is "Trump the stupid clown who is good at fleecing the sheeple."

Until we see his taxes, we won't know if he's even a real billionaire (with money from his own profits, rather than loans from DB and Alfabank)

In business terms, he's the favoured son of a billionaire. That's his only qualification.

Gbear

Beyond self-aggrandisement, self-enrichment and petty prejudices of race and gender, Trump doesn't have an ideology. There's no grand plan.

But as it turns out, if you're a self-aggrandising, self-enriching, racist, misogynist with total contempt for the rule of law, in practice you end up pretty much being a fascist.

The need to have a following while feeding into one's own primitive chauvinism will lead to the same demagoguery as if the the roles were reversed and you were consciously trying to rally a base of chauvinists for cynical or philosophical reasons.

Trump on his own isn't enough for fascism, but buttressed by a bellicose, corrupt, pseudo-theocratic institution like the Republican party, and a base of white supremacists, misogynists and doomsday cultists, the Trump administration as a whole certainly is.

They have the means to control power and to subvert democratic systems, the proven willingness to do so, a contempt for oversight and free press, a loose association with a violent paramilitary cohort of assorted gun nuts, neo nazis, survivalists and other far right extremists, on a world stage they support totalitarian regimes while undermining relationships with functional democracies. That, and their politics are conservative, which is to say nakedly misogynistic, racist, homophobic, jingoistic, illiberal, and utterly cynical in how they use the levers of liberal democracy and the rule of law, ignoring them when it doesn't suit them and showing contempt for the values they represent.

You can split hairs about being more obviously oligarchal than historical fascist governments, and being even more transparent in how they're abusing their power and how the ambitious and greedy are far more prevalent than the true believers at the top of the pyramid, but if anything I think that's just a question of a refining of the fascist process, a modern toolset, and a ripe crop of cultists that have been spoon-fed garbage from places like Fox News and Info Wars for long enough to cement their loyalty more strongly than a Fascist party just now springing forth.

Here's the opening chapter on Fascism from Wikipedia:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state and technology. The advent of total war and the total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilians and combatants. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.[6][7] The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.[6][7]

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[8] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[8] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[9][10] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11]

Since the end of World War II in 1945, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is instead now usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far-right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th-century fascist movements.[4][12]

The modern red scare we see about communism infiltrating Western civilisation under the guise of socialist healthcare policies is right in line with what you'd expect from this sort of extremist politics. The language used, like throwing the term "cultural marxism" around like it's going out of fashion is another example.

The fetishisation of the military is nothing new in the US, but a mixture of Trump's egotism and the increasing tendency for far-right groups to hold rallies in their combat fatigues, waving around their guns, in a truly spectacular display of the fragility of their sense of masculinity, has brought it to new, fascistic levels.

The overall level of violent rhetoric, bellicosity and incitement of terrorism is right in line with what you would expect from a fascist political movement.

You'd have to be incredibly obtuse to think at this point that the likes of Mitch McConnell or Bill Barr would have any compunction about enforcing single party rule, when their gerrymandering, voter suppression, obstructionism, court packing, ignoring of subpoenas all ultimately will lead to this if left unchecked.

Incels, Red Pillers, and all these various cults that have emerged online in the last ten or so years are just a sort of new wave of the traditional christian-conservative views that are still pretty much the norm in large swathes of the US (and also places like Eastern Europe, Russia, India, Muslim countries and much of Africa), and they espouse the nostalgia of a time when women did what they were told. And it's no accident these groups are adjacent to racist groups, or that both are adjacent to right wing, conservative politics.

There's an interesting schism where you have globalist Republicans who are ultimately interested in their bank accounts, and Trump. One wants open trade with the world, while Trump's policies against China have been suggestive of a desire for a self-sufficient US autarky. We see the same in Britain with Brexit. But, there is further internal division in this because it conflicts with their other policies regarding race and immigration. This is an example of where they're failing to meet the "true believer" level of fascism, and allowing pragmatism and greed to dilute it. I think it's far from enough to negate the point as a whole, however.

Trump doesn't have an overriding sense of all this. He's kinda been carried along by it as much as anything. He's far from a deep thinker, but in as much as he thinks anything, it's in keeping with these kinds of conservative hierarchical ideas of society. His engagement with it is the fleeting "your grandad's racist tirade" sort of thing, which would be fine, but he's doing it as the President of the US.

Every single Republican is not a fascist. That's absurd to suggest. Individual elements of the far right political movement that has taken control of the US aren't necessarily fascitic on their own. As a whole, the movement is fascistic. Any academic nitpicks you might have with that determination would only serve to miss the point of the overwhelming number of commonalities.

dr.fuzzenstein

Dear Gbear, I have to do more than just hit thanks on that post and say, rather than buy you a pint, I feel I should buy you an entire pub.
This article that you wrote is so painfully on the nose about the world as we see it today, that it only makes it more frustrating to see the madness continue rather than people seeing the obvious truths of how hatred and division are holding us back as a species.
The above post should get 10000 likes.
Thanks.

alchemist33

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If she is, so many people are going to absolutely lose their sh*t.
They're already spreading hate and lies about her at an alarming rate, the trolling is at warp speed.
A lot of old, white, conservative men are very scared of her.

Given her portrayal as the antichrist, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some rightwing psychopath tries to kill her in the next few years.

Pedro K

In true Trump from, there is always a tweet. He has blamed the rain for knocking out the teleprompter, leading to him speaking of airports in 1781 (again lads, idiot. Why would you defend this?).

Well....

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/181812278780379137?s=19

He also criticised Hilary Clinton, numerous times, for using teleprompters. Quelle surprise.

amandstu

He reminds me of M.Ali in his rope a dope bout (was it against Forman?) .Just too easy to hit.

Then he springs off the ropes and knees you in the ghoulies.

Be afraid,be very afraid.He will do anything to win 2020 and we know the bar he has set and which is accepted by his supporters.

Professor Moriarty

amandstu wrote: »

He reminds me of M.Ali in his rope a dope bout (was it against Forman?) .Just too easy to hit.

Then he springs off the ropes and knees you in the ghoulies.

Be afraid,be very afraid.He will do anything to win 2020 and we know the bar he has set and which is accepted by his supporters.

I think he'll use the same playbook - it got him elected in 2016. There'll be lots of rallies, tweets and insults. However, much will depend on who the Democrats choose and if they then unite behind that person. Whoever it is, the head to head debates will be unmissable.

pixelburp

His problem is that in 2016, his insults and demeanour was an arresting kick against the normalcy of Washington politics. In 2020 the gimmick is played out and for many the emperor has been shown to have no clothes, let alone having drained any swamps. His schtick might not come off quite as endearing second time around. The sole tangent has been to emphasise an economy that the last guy started (and whose laws trump has gleefully torn up).

Plus trump has never had to beg to keep his job. It's one thing to say "only I know how to fix things", it's another to say "I'm still fixing it, honest".