Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

mcmoustache

everlast75 wrote: »

Link to Taylor's opening statement

https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/opening-statement-of-ambassador-william-b-taylor/6b3a6edf-f976-4081-ba7f-bce45468a3ff/

Cleaner version here:


https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6508987/Bill-Taylor-Opening.pdf

mcmoustache

Barr also dropped in it by the looks of it.

TomOnBoard

everlast75 wrote: »

It'd be nice for somebody on here who initially stated that there was no "quid pro quo" to come back online, accept that there was, and that these actions by Trump are not acceptable, are an abuse of power and an impeachable offence.

Won't hold my breath though...

Taylor's statement clarifies that Trump was willing to cut Ukraine off completely from all forms of US support (not just the $250 mill) as the price exacted if Ukraine wouldn't go along with the investigations demand. Notwithstanding the illegality of this from a foreign policy perspective (Congress having already had a long history of bi-partisan support for Ukraine) it also showed his willingness to leave Ukraine at the mercy of the Russians, which is plainly an act of treason ( by aiding and abetting the military objectives of a foreign power that is a clear enemy of the United States). So, in one fell swoop, Trump was threatening to ignore Congress, jettison a decades-old foreign policy and collude with Putin's Russia by abandoning Ukraine. A larger scale version of his abandonment of the Kurds in Syria..

26000 Elephants

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So, in one fell swoop, Trump was threatening to ignore Congress, jettison a decades-old foreign policy and collude with Putin's Russia by abandoning Ukraine. A larger scale version of his abandonment of the Kurds in Syria..

All the more astonishing when you realise that, apart from the Biden element, it all about an astoundingly ludicrous conspiracy theory dreamt up by Giuliani to throw suspicion from Russia to Ukraine: that all the hacks and interference in 2016 was a bizarre false flag operation....

Overheal

The latest award for the death of irony goes to...

aloyisious

Rudy is turning out to be even worse than Wormtongue to his client. One good fact contained in Ambassador Taylor's statement is that if the funding had not been given by OMB to Ukraine it would have had to be returned unspent to the treasury and possibly lead to Don and Rudy's scheming becoming public.

I take it that the Ambassador Bolton referred to is John Bolton, Don's last NSA.

Itssoeasy

Is there a point in pointing out that the German Parliament in Berlin wasn't rebuilt after WWII as he makes it sound like it a few years after when that building wasn't used for anything and the dome was just a recreation of what has originally there before the fire in the 1930's ?

Overheal

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is there a point in pointing out that the German Parliament in Berlin wasn't rebuilt after WWII as he makes it sound like it a few years after when that building wasn't used for anything and the dome was just a recreation of what has originally there before the fire in the 1930's ?

I'd much rather have WaPo factcheck him then I can link the article in every post he makes. **** will drive him nuts, might get one of my rare rises out of him.

26000 Elephants

Stephanie Grisham insists that "Trump did nothing wrong" in a bizarre attempt at defending the indefensible. After trying to convince us that Mulvaneys (completely televised) presser was mischaracterised by the press as "theatre", it now seems that all the illegal actions admitted before Congress are simply "not wrong"

These are useless, ineffectual people who should never be in these roles but for their one qualification: an unquestioning devotion to the Glorious Leader.

They dont even try.

mcmoustache

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Stephanie Grisham insists that "Trump did nothing wrong" in a bizarre attempt at defending the indefensible. After trying to convince us that Mulvaneys (completely televised) presser was mischaracterised by the press as "theatre", it now seems that all the illegal actions admitted before Congress are simply "not wrong"

These are useless, ineffectual people who should never be in these roles but for their one qualification: an unquestioning devotion to the Glorious Leader.

They dont even try.

As I keep saying, they're not talking to you. They're talking to their base whowho's intelligence they can freely insult.

TomOnBoard

So, Trumps selling out the Kurds in Syria has already given Putin a huge win. He and Erdogan met in Sochi and have announced a deal whereby Russia and Turkey will jointly manage the North East Syrian region to the exclusion of the US.

Treacherous Trump meddling has pushed Turkey into Russia's outstretched arms. So what's now going to happen to US nukes stationed in Turkey? Madness!!

Outlaw Pete

everlast75 wrote: »

I could engage with you and point out how fundamentally stupid your post is, but there seems little point as you'll just disappear from the thread for a day or so and talk about something else.

Nice cop out.

You are forever suggesting Trump's "base" is racist with little or nothing to back it up but that's what the left does whenever they have no other argument, start throwing around accusations of racism, but it's just lazy nonsense designed to discredit those that the left disagree with while also of course hoping to be seen as righteous while they do it.

Of course the truth is the left rarely are what they present themselves as being, and sanctimony is just one of their favoured tools.

Case in point: Joe Biden. Just compare his tweet from earlier today with his comments back in 1998.



https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1186691273870233601
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1186785102568681472

Midlife

listermint wrote: »

Aye your definitely right. I mean your white and I'm guessing Irish.

So white Irish people were not hanged from trees in the last 50 years....



Christ on a bike.

To be honest listermint, it's silly arguments like this that get people like Trump elected.

I mean how the hell did Trump score a win yesterday??

It's because people were in such a hurry to be offended on behalf of other people.

The PC argument is very off putting to many many people and I would advise you that arguing along these lines with a Trump supporter is like the old phrase about wrestling with a pig.

I find nothing wrong with the word, it gets used every so often, it's a common surname in Ireland, Biden used it with no issues etc.

That's just my take on this issue.

The problem though is that last night the first two articles on Politico were about this word and you had to scroll down to get to number 3 till you got to the seriously damaging testimony in the house.

everlast75

You know the WH have no defence to the latest testimony when this is their best effort...

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1186765710229475329?s=19

26000 Elephants

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

.

Case in point: Joe Biden. Just compare his tweet from earlier today with his comments back in 1998.

Biden should not have used the word in 1998. Trump should not have used the word in 20019. One is wrong. The other is wrong.

Still wrong. OK? Now, move on.

What did you think of Grishams extraordinary statement yesterday, where she said he 'did nothing wrong', despite witness statements, including his own staff, clearly stating otherwise? Are 30 year career diplomats and conservative veterans such as Bolton *really* part of a 'leftist plot' to 'smear' the President?

Are you putting yourself behind this utter nonsense?

Penn

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Case in point: Joe Biden. Just compare his tweet from earlier today with his comments back in 1998.

Joe Biden has apologised for using that word. Do you think Trump will do the same?

Either way, compared to Taylor's testimony yesterday, the whole "lynching" thing is a big fat nothingburger. And McConnell throwing Trump under the bus, not once but twice, was an extra few slices of cheese on top

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1186734573323018240

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1186734979386097665

26000 Elephants

Midlife wrote: »

The problem though is that last night the first two articles on Politico were about this word and you had to scroll down to get to number 3 till you got to the seriously damaging testimony in the house.

This.

It's a basic debating trick that Outlaw Pete uses to great effect: start wringing your hands on minor side details, and draw the debate from the truly damaging topics. Its lazy, transparent and an obvious tell that things are not going well.

listermint

Midlife wrote: »

To be honest listermint, it's silly arguments like this that get people like Trump elected.

I mean how the hell did Trump score a win yesterday??

It's because people were in such a hurry to be offended on behalf of other people.

The PC argument is very off putting to many many people and I would advise you that arguing along these lines with a Trump supporter is like the old phrase about wrestling with a pig.

I find nothing wrong with the word, it gets used every so often, it's a common surname in Ireland, Biden used it with no issues etc.

That's just my take on this issue.

The problem though is that last night the first two articles on Politico were about this word and you had to scroll down to get to number 3 till you got to the seriously damaging testimony in the house.

No hold on a second. It's not silly arguments like this that got trump elected. It's hundreds of millions of dollars worth of lies poured into Facebook and then a hammering down of lies on national TV that got him elected.

It's not pc nonsense that got him elected . Painting over the past just because it suits ultra hard right agendas doesn't make it ok. The average voter understands lynching and knows how hopelessly wrong it is. It isn't pc to point that out. And you brushing aside the real reasons for trump to get elected are hilarious.

I'd wager this . If Facebook didn't exist trump wouldn't have ever made it past the primaries.

But somehow you think its people calling out racism as being the source of his election. Give me a break

26000 Elephants

listermint wrote: »

But somehow you think its people calling out racism as being the source of his election. Give me a break

Perhaps it's more about the tactic of moving the focus of debate from rock solid, objectively incriminating actions to looser, more subjective arguments about language.

Brian?

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Nice cop out.

You are forever suggesting Trump's "base" is racist with little or nothing to back it up but that's what the left does whenever they have no other argument, start throwing around accusations of racism, but it's just lazy nonsense designed to discredit those that the left disagree with while also of course hoping to be seen as righteous while they do it.

Of course the truth is the left rarely are what they present themselves as being, and sanctimony is just one of their favoured tools.

Case in point: Joe Biden. Just compare his tweet from earlier today with his comments back in 1998.



https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1186691273870233601
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1186785102568681472

Hey Pete, what do you think of Trump withholding military aid until the Ukrainians announced an investigation into Biden?

listermint

26000 Elephants wrote: »

This.

It's a basic debating trick that Outlaw Pete uses to great effect: start wringing your hands on minor side details, and draw the debate from the truly damaging topics. Its lazy, transparent and an obvious tell that things are not going well.

Tbh you should be concerned about it all.

Not just follow the small stuff. Id agree on that.

Brian?

listermint wrote: »

No hold on a second. It's not silly arguments like this that got trump elected. It's hundreds of millions of dollars worth of lies poured into Facebook and then a hammering down of lies on national TV that got him elected.

It's not pc nonsense that got him elected . Painting over the past just because it suits ultra hard right agendas doesn't make it ok. The average voter understands lynching and knows how hopelessly wrong it is. It isn't pc to point that out. And you brushing aside the real reasons for trump to get elected are hilarious.

I'd wager this . If Facebook didn't exist trump wouldn't have ever made it past the primaries.

But somehow you think its people calling out racism as being the source of his election. Give me a break

100% agree. People keep trotting our this line about Trump being a reaction to PC culture and this is what got him elected. It didn’t.

Low turnout, a poor opposition candidate, Russian psy ops, a coalition of the evangelicals around filling the empty SCOTUS seat and a reaction to the Bernie shafting are all more to blame.

Having said that, I think we should ignore the odd gaffe from Trump and focus on the big stuff. There is plenty of big stuff to be outraged about.

Christy42

I still love the focus on renaming pay for play as quid pro quo from the administration. When Hilary was accused of similar it was all the harsher sounding pay for play. Now any statement is released is about quid pro quo.

everlast75

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Nice cop out.

You are forever suggesting Trump's "base" is racist with little or nothing to back it up but that's what the left does whenever they have no other argument, start throwing around accusations of racism, but it's just lazy nonsense designed to discredit those that the left disagree with while also of course hoping to be seen as righteous while they do it.

Of course the truth is the left rarely are what they present themselves as being, and sanctimony is just one of their favoured tools.

Case in point: Joe Biden. Just compare his tweet from earlier today with his comments back in 1998.



https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1186691273870233601
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1186785102568681472

Projection seems to be the only defence at this stage for 45's "mop and bucket" brigade.

Dealing with your "Cop out" comment, you have singularly failed to address multiple questions put to you from different posters in relation to many of your assertions. I think the record stands at seven times. Instead, you disappear only to re-emerge days later with a complete change of topic. When pressed as to why you can't answer a single question, you deflect again and attack the poster, the forum, whatever you can rather than deal with the issue.

Next, let's deal with your assertion that other politicians have said it. Another deflection tactic. "Someone else said it, so its fine".
1) I had no idea that other people have said it in the past. I wasn't into politics in 1998. Was it wrong for them to do so? Absolutely!
2) Was it especially wrong for Trump, who has said so many incendiary things about race in the US to say it, while President? Even more so.

Now, I get that you don't think Trump is racist, but then again I don't think you know what racism is, so you aren't really in a position to comment. This does not appear to inhibit you from waxing lyrical on the topic though. But you have form on that. For example, you've no idea what sexual assault is but you are on here regularly spouting on about what is and isn't sexual assault.

So, here are the facts.

Trump asked for foreign assistance in his bid for re-election.
He withheld military assistance, property allocated funds and public support from the Ukraine in order to get it.

The idea that he didn't know about it is farcical.
The idea that he did all of this because he cared about corruption is farcical.
The idea that these witnesses are part of the deep state is farcical.

By all means, start talking about another topic though.

26000 Elephants

listermint wrote: »

Tbh you should be concerned about it all.

Not just follow the small stuff. Id agree on that.

Absolutely. But when you are faced with a torrent of effluent such as generated by the Trump administration, you need to prioritise. A triage process, so to speak.

Nothing will be overlooked, but it allows you to focus on the big honkers without being distracted by the volume.

Trump KEEPS his Syrian envoy IN THE DARK ABOUT US ARMY WITHDRAWAL.

http://english.sina.com/news/2019-10-23/detail-iicezzrr4333089.shtml


Trump's flying colours

Quin_Dub

Penn wrote: »

Joe Biden has apologised for using that word. Do you think Trump will do the same?

Either way, compared to Taylor's testimony yesterday, the whole "lynching" thing is a big fat nothingburger. And McConnell throwing Trump under the bus, not once but twice, was an extra few slices of cheese on top

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1186734573323018240

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1186734979386097665

And just as damning from McConnell was after he'd said that he and Trump never spoke about the Ukraine call he was asked "Does that mean that Trump was lying then?"

His response was "You'd have to ask him" - Ouch!

duploelabs

Quin_Dub wrote: »

And just as damning from McConnell was after he'd said that he and Trump never spoke about the Ukraine call he was asked "Does that mean that Trump was lying then?"

His response was "You'd have to ask him" - Ouch!

I do like the way that both Graham and McConnell have recently both broken ranks and started criticizing Trump, a good sign of things to come

Igotadose

duploelabs wrote: »

I do like the way that both Graham and McConnell have recently both broken ranks and started criticizing Trump, a good sign of things to come

Won't last. Couple of first-rate weasels keeping their mugs in the dailys. They'll be brought to heel if they go too far astray. It's party over country now and forever for the GOP (for the Democrats, for whatever.)

duploelabs

duploelabs wrote: »

I do like the way that both Graham and McConnell have recently both broken ranks and started criticizing Trump, a good sign of things to come

Graham is introducing a bill in the senate to condemn the house impeachment inquiry, I wouldn't read too much into his criticism of Trump. I think he's going to be behind Trump to the bitter end.