Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

SJW Lover

aloyisious wrote: »

The other side of the coin or argument that people are seeing what the want to see also applies to aretheymyfeet. Just saying "that's not evidence" as a mantra doesn't cut mustard as an argument. No amount of continuing that line from another poster makes it a legitimate argument or debating line.

Well something is either evidential or it isnt. Going into a courtroom and making a claim is nothing more than a claim until it is backed up by evidence. Claims and evidence are entirely different things.


Asking for evidence when a claim is made is a completely legitimate argument and a sure-fire debate win if no evidence can be provided to back up said claim. I could claim you are anything and you think it fine that would be accepted without me showing how and why i made that claim?


This is pretty basic stuff.

26000 Elephants

SJW lover wrote: »

You're really just confused. Evidence is evidence. A claim is not evidence, obviously.

Its deja vu all over again.

Overheal

StringerBell wrote: »

Watching that south park episode now where the giant douche (Garrison/Trump) is running against the turd sandwich. (Clinton)

As so often is the way with south park, it's juvenile but so, so apt.

South Park is a vital slice of American political culture

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Reminder of a previous mod warning:

Chips Lovell wrote: »

If you want to post conspiracy theories, please use the appropriate forum. If you wish to continue posting on this thread, please stick to the facts.

Russia hacked the DNC. This is not up for debate.

As the charter says:


@Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.”


Thank you

One person has already been banned for this carry on today. Let’s not make it more.

Itssoeasy

What did Ireland do in history to be flanked by Britian to our east who finally decided on a takeaway order tonight after taking too long and we have idiotic watergate to our west.

I don't know how to describe Donald Trump anymore in ways that confirm to the charter of this forum so I'm going to barely comment anymore. I mean I know there is the saying "there is none so blind as those who will not see" which could describe his base in part but there is nothing else I can offer to try and rationalise trump, and maybe that's the problem. If you try to look at trump in the way we should look at things then none of it makes any bloody sense.

Logic is gone the way of the dodo in places in the world that should know better.

Overheal

Saw that Jesse Waters and Lou Dobbs leaned in hard and deep into smearing Vindman

https://www.mediaite.com/news/fox-news-jesse-watters-accuses-lt-col-vindman-of-engaging-in-sabotage-from-within-white-house/

Watters accused him of sabotage from within the whitehouse

Greg Guttfeld meanwhile peddled the baseless conspiracy that the media and the Democrats were up to cahoots to devilishly time the Vindman testimony to trash the coverage of the Al-Baghdadi raid (spoiler alert: his hearing was scheduled long before the Speaker of the House even knew of the raids existence)

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/lou-dobbs-and-guests-go-off-on-vindman-he-looks-delusional-should-be-removed-from-white-house/

Dobbs said he looks delusional and his guest dismissed him as a “clerk” - the guest also railed against ... I’ll let you read it

“ It’s as if President Trump has a police officer following him illegally… everywhere he goes just trying to find him doing anything, anything at all that they can try to pin on him,” Carter added. “I think that he should actually be removed if he has not been removed already, and that the president should clean out the NSC and clear out the White House of people that he suspects are working for the people that had formerly been in office.”

Just a fascinating stream of consciousness to throw out deflections and accusations, because apparently Vindman was in his job illegally. Oh ok.

‘The real crime here is the people reporting the crimes!’

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Folks, please heed the mod warning. It wasn't an invitation to continue arguing the toss.

Christy42

Overheal wrote: »

Saw that Jesse Waters and Lou Dobbs leaned in hard and deep into smearing Vindman

https://www.mediaite.com/news/fox-news-jesse-watters-accuses-lt-col-vindman-of-engaging-in-sabotage-from-within-white-house/

Watters accused him of sabotage from within the whitehouse

Greg Guttfeld meanwhile peddled the baseless conspiracy that the media and the Democrats were up to cahoots to devilishly time the Vindman testimony to trash the coverage of the Al-Baghdadi raid (spoiler alert: his hearing was scheduled long before the Speaker of the House even knew of the raids existence)

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/lou-dobbs-and-guests-go-off-on-vindman-he-looks-delusional-should-be-removed-from-white-house/

Dobbs said he looks delusional and his guest dismissed him as a “clerk” - the guest also railed against ... I’ll let you read it

“ It’s as if President Trump has a police officer following him illegally… everywhere he goes just trying to find him doing anything, anything at all that they can try to pin on him,” Carter added. “I think that he should actually be removed if he has not been removed already, and that the president should clean out the NSC and clear out the White House of people that he suspects are working for the people that had formerly been in office.”

Just a fascinating stream of consciousness to throw out deflections and accusations, because apparently Vindman was in his job illegally. Oh ok.

‘The real crime here is the people reporting the crimes!’

It has been their MO for years. They can't argue against the substance of allegations so they attack the character. They have done it for years.

26000 Elephants

Overheal wrote: »

“ It’s as if President Trump has a police officer following him illegally… everywhere he goes just trying to find him doing anything, anything at all that they can try to pin on him,” Carter added.

This is a preposterous suggestion. Simply clicking the 'follow' button on his Twitter feed would give the same result. Or listen to his press officer. Or transcripts of his phone calls.

The source of the evidence against Trump is not a secret. Trying to frame it as harassment is laughable.

rossie1977

Considering the same Republicans and right wing media tried to pin the silliest stuff on Obama as national crisis.

If Obama talked, acted or did half the stuff Trump has done the same people would be talking public execution not impeachment

I mean

Penn

Vindman apparently testified yesterday that one of the items omitted from the transcript memo of the Ukraine call was Trump saying that there were tapes of Biden discussing Ukraine corruption and that Trump explicitly named Burisma (the company associated with Hunter Biden) during the call.

https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1189348106464350209

Overheal

Which explains three very strange ellipses in the Telcon:

“ In three places in the transcript, an ellipsis (a series of three dots) is used. That’s typically a marking that indicates where part of a conversation has been removed. The White House says the ellipses represent places where the speaker trailed off or paused, but current and former officials told The Washington Post that standard practice in such situations is to use dashes or “[inaudible]” in such cases.

Each of the three ellipses comes when Trump is lapsing into unproven conspiracy theories—the first two during a discussion of whether Russian hacking in the 2016 election was really a Ukrainian false flag, and the third when asking about his unsubstantiated accusations of wrongdoing by the Biden family. This makes the prospect of elisions in these key areas all the more important and tantalizing. Yet it is also imaginable that Trump veered into incoherence, as he sometimes does, leaving the notetakers befuddled or unable to reconstruct his words.”

[url] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/do-we-actually-know-what-happened-zelensky-call/599359/[/url]

duploelabs

Funnnily enough, I have put this question to our own resident Sarah Huckerby Sanders as to why those recording/direct transcripts had been moved to a code-word level secure server. I guess we now know why? Also why they haven't answered that question

everlast75

Why haven't the Dems subpoenaed all docs related to the calls?

Are they going through the witnesses first as a precursor?

Itssoeasy

everlast75 wrote: »

Why haven't the Dems subpoenaed all docs related to the calls?

Are they going through the witnesses first as a precursor?

Would they get them ? I mean we've seen the lengths this White House has gone to block people testifying before congress which if they are claiming innocence on the matter then stopping witnesses to the event in question doesn't help your appearance of innocence.

Quin_Dub

everlast75 wrote: »

Why haven't the Dems subpoenaed all docs related to the calls?

Are they going through the witnesses first as a precursor?

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Would they get them ? I mean we've seen the lengths this White House has gone to block people testifying before congress which if they are claiming innocence on the matter then stopping witnesses to the event in question doesn't help your appearance of innocence.

Not a chance that the WH would give up that information without taking it all the way to the Supreme court.

Question for those that might know - Once things are in "official" impeachment proceedings/trials etc. does that change the ability of the WH to refuse to co-operate?

Overheal

everlast75 wrote: »

Why haven't the Dems subpoenaed all docs related to the calls?

Are they going through the witnesses first as a precursor?

They’ve long since subpoenaed the docs. The White House has refused to comply as a matter of policy.

Itssoeasy

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not a chance that the WH would give up that information without taking it all the way to the Supreme court.

Question for those that might know - Once things are in "official" impeachment proceedings/trials etc. does that change the ability of the WH to refuse to co-operate?

I think once there's an impeachment hearing vote by the House of Representatives then I think there less room for White House to stonewall and block people. I mean you'd assume there'd have to be a difference, otherwise why bother making it "official" ?

Overheal

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I think once there an impeachment hearing voting on by the House of Representatives then I think there less room for White House to stonewall and block people. I mean you'd assume there'd have to be a different, otherwise why bother making it "official" ?

You’d think. Wait and see I guess but given Republicans are complaining about how it’s a sham that they’re about to get most all the provisions they asked for it seems evidence that making the inquiry super double Facebook official isn’t going to dissuade them from kicking their feet at it.

Outlaw Pete

Overheal wrote: »

Flynn in other news has lost his quirky appeal against his own guilty plea

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/extraordinary-reversal-federal-prosecutors-emphatically-reject-michael-flynns-claim-of-innocence/

So yeah he’s still guilty. The court found that the evidence he was trying to fish for not only didn’t exculpate him it wasn’t relevant to his case.

He has not lost his appeal ..

He may do - but the judge hasn't even ruled yet:

Judge Tells Government To Respond To Allegations It Hid Evidence From Michael Flynn’s Legal Team

Late yesterday, Judge Sullivan entered an order directing the government to file a surreply brief by November 1, 2019, but in doing so instructed prosecutors to address not just the Brady issues, but any “new relief, claims, arguments, and information raised in Defendant’s Reply Brief.” The order also gave Flynn a chance to respond to the government’s arguments by November 4, 2019. But that’s it: Judge Sullivan made clear that no new arguments should be made in Powell’s sur-surreply and no further pleadings concerning Flynn’s motion to compel would be accepted.

Whether Judge Sullivan will schedule oral argument after receiving these latest filings is yet to be seen. And how he will rule is anyone’s guess. But that Judge Sullivan did not limit the additional briefing to specific Brady issues, but instead directed the government to respond broadly to any “new relief, claims, arguments, and information,” suggests the long-time federal judge’s concern has been piqued by what he’s read so far.

Water John

The pic of Vindman, in his uniform, with his purple heart pinned on, really rocked back all those who tried to take aim at the man.
It looked bad, and they realised a bit late that it was.

everlast75

What is happening? Are we all dreaming?

https://twitter.com/mattshuham/status/1189605288120389633?s=19

mcmoustache

More leftist never-trumpers due to be questioned in secret by only the Democrats who'll force them into lying about the President next week.

https://twitter.com/dcpoll/status/1189639595119534081

26000 Elephants

mcmoustache wrote: »

More leftist never-trumpers due to be questioned in secret by only the Democrats who'll force them into lying about the President next week.

I doubt Bolton will turn up before Kipperman gets a decision on his time-buying exercise on "constitutional immunity"

Isn't it odd that any time you see that phrase printed it's in quotes? It's like it's not a real thing at all- just a made up concept based loosely on real things like the constitution and immunity.

Itssoeasy

Lawyers for former NSA John Bolton say he won’t testify voluntarily but is open to testify if subpoenaed by the democrats.

mcmoustache

Tim Morrison who is due to testify tomorrow has abruptly left his job at the NSC. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for that. Morrison is the one who said that Zelinskyy should go to a microphone and say he was investigating Biden.
https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1189669778941775873

Also, Bolton's lawyer has said that Bolton doesn't want to testify but that he would be glad to do so with a subpoena. It's well known that Bolton likes to talk, for anyone wondering.

https://twitter.com/nytmike/status/1189668013672415232

mcmoustache

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Lawyers for former NSA John Bolton say he won’t testify voluntarily but is open to testify if subpoenaed by the democrats.

Snap.


He's just asking for a subpoena. He wants to talk.

spacecoyote

everlast75 wrote: »

What is happening? Are we all dreaming?

https://twitter.com/mattshuham/status/1189605288120389633?s=19

I thought that was a faked joke tweet, but I see that trump has it pinned on twitter. It's a really bad photoshop job too.

Guess it's more distraction tactics

Itssoeasy

This whole mess doesn’t even really deserve to have a gate added to it like most have since watergate itself. I say that because the utter stupidity and lack of even basic decency just makes it worse than anything I’ve ever read about.

I mean to attack a serving member of the US military who was awarded the Purple Heart and has served seemingly Honourably is attacked and called a spy. Isn’t the military and the men and women in it supposedly sacred in America ?

Overheal

Expect a dramatic effort to disrupt Morrison’s testimony in some newsworthy fashion.