Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

is_that_so

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why would they have a national profile? They are in the congress which is 'local' based and has a very low rating itself. I doubt many people can list many of the congress men and women from either party.

They have not run on a national platform so it is disingenuous to rate them as such. As we see every election cycle, those that are planning on running for national office will start to raise their national awareness during the preceding number of years.

You seem to be missing the point on AOC in particular. She would not share the views of those in swing states and there is a fair chance that Trump/GOP will try to use her as the face of the Dems and what the Dems would do in the WH.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

The Democrats had leftwing media put Trump on all the time at the start of the primaries to help him win so he'd be easy to beat in the election. You don't need to go that far back in history to find examples of one side making the other all about some crazies.

It's not crazy everywhere he needs to do, just in certain places.

kilns

Its almost laughable when you hear claims about hating America etc when the demands which they have are simple basic human rights in other countries like healthcare for all and humane conditions for detained people.

America calls itself the greatest country in the world but it is far from it when you have to shout and fight for these things but yet paid off politicians on both sides will ensure it never happens. If this is hating American then all its citizens should hate it as it is a disgusting corrupt riddled place that only works for a small minority of people and where big business can buy any vote they want.

Now I will go back to where i came from

rossie1977

is_that_so wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point on AOC in particular. She would not share the views of those in swing states and there is a fair chance that Trump/GOP will try to use her as the face of the Dems and what the Dems would do in the WH.

Disagree. Cost of healthcare, education, jobs and wages are all issues that effect voters in swing states especially the rust belt. More chance those voters would choose someone they can relate to over a billionaire who lives in a gold tower or an affluent prosecutor from the bay area.

everlast75

rossie1977 wrote: »

Disagree. Cost of healthcare, education, jobs and wages are all issues that effect voters in swing states especially the rust belt. More chance those voters would choose someone they can relate to over a billionaire who lives in a gold tower or an affluent prosecutor from the bay area.

Plus, you cannot equate how Trump did in 2016 compared to how he might do in 2020.

You had the interference in the swing states by Russia, you have the suppression of the hush money payments, you have the divisive Dem candidate, you have the National Enquirer working full time to destroy her, you have the release of the wikileaks emails, Comey putting his size 14's in it etc etc.

Plus you had Trump running on the hope that he will sort things out, he will slash the deficit, he will provide better health care for all, he will provide a tax cut for the middle class, drain the swamp, hire only the best people, insisting that he is the best negotiator in the world - all of which has since been shown to be utter nonsense. Plus, of course he is now a card carrying racist, as opposed to one who uses dog whistles, nevermind being shown to obstruct justice multiple times and a tax cheat.

Danzy

Leroy42 wrote: »

But they won't be on the ticket. They won't be in the debates. I understand the thinking behind it but it has a very real and obvious flaw.

Many people in the US are simply not interested in politics, this grander scheme simply won't work. It worked against HC because she was front and centre. But she is not there in 2020. So Trump has lost one of, if not the, most important weapons he had. And I fail to see that he has replaced it with.

I can see that he is trying to replace HC hatred with hatred of AOC and others, but whilst some will no doubt buy into it, I would be of the view that they would be GOP supporters anyway and it wouldn't matter who the DNC ran.

It is also true that to get them front and centre Trump has had to expose himself as a racist and with that the GOP as a whole. So they have the very real risk of alienating the centre ground they very much need to win.

They are all ready Deeply unpopular with the electorate.

He just wants to make people think of them when they think Democrat.

It'll all be old news in a week.

peddlelies

Danzy wrote: »

They are all ready Deeply unpopular with the electorate.

Did you see the poll obtained by Axios?

https://www.axios.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-democrats-2020-aeaa3771-f142-4059-b79e-1fed569dfdf9.html

"Top Democrats are circulating a poll showing that one of the House's most progressive members — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — has become a definitional face for the party with a crucial group of swing voters.

Why it matters: These Democrats are sounding the alarm that swing voters know and dislike socialism, warning it could cost them the House and the presidency. The poll is making the rounds of some of the most influential Democrats in America."

The findings:

Ocasio-Cortez was recognized by 74% of voters in the poll; 22% had a favorable view.
Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota — another member of The Squad — was recognized by 53% of the voters; 9% (not a typo) had a favorable view.

robinph

peddlelies wrote: »

Did you see the poll obtained by Axios?

https://www.axios.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-democrats-2020-aeaa3771-f142-4059-b79e-1fed569dfdf9.html

"Top Democrats are circulating a poll showing that one of the House's most progressive members — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — has become a definitional face for the party with a crucial group of swing voters.

Why it matters: These Democrats are sounding the alarm that swing voters know and dislike socialism, warning it could cost them the House and the presidency. The poll is making the rounds of some of the most influential Democrats in America."

The findings:

Ocasio-Cortez was recognized by 74% of voters in the poll; 22% had a favorable view.
Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota — another member of The Squad — was recognized by 53% of the voters; 9% (not a typo) had a favorable view.

Shock biased poll results found from biased poll:

included 1,003 likely general-election voters who are white and have two years or less of college education.

peddlelies

robinph wrote: »

Shock biased poll results found from biased poll:

How many polls do you need?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/28/18285533/aoc-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-favorables-media

"A Quinnipiac poll released on Thursday morning found that 23 percent of Americans had a favorable view of the member of Congress, while 36 percent had an unfavorable view — a -13 overall approval rating. Thirty-eight percent hadn’t heard enough about her to have an informed opinion.

This new poll isn’t a one-off finding. Three prior surveys — one in January from Morning Consult, one in February from Fox, and a third in mid-March from Gallup — all found that more Americans had negative views of AOC than had positive ones. "

Here's one from her own state

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/aoc-approval-rating-falls-after-amazon-deal-collapse-as-trump-hammers-democrats-over-socialism.html

"Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has grown less popular in New York – even among Democrats – following Amazon’s decision to scrap its planned offices in Queens.

Thirty-one percent of registered voters in the state view the freshman House Democrat favorably, while 44 percent have an unfavorable view, according to a Siena College poll released Monday."

26000 Elephants

peddlelies wrote: »

How many polls do you need?

How about one that asks real questions about rape and racism, rather than made up notions of "socialism"?

peddlelies

26000 Elephants wrote: »

How about one that asks real questions about rape and racism, rather than made up notions of "socialism"?

How do you reckon they'd score on the anti-Semitism meter?

Oh and btw, how often has Cortez and her ilk tried to shame "old white men". Last time I checked making a judgement on someone based on skin colour is racism.

kilns

peddlelies wrote: »

Did you see the poll obtained by Axios?

https://www.axios.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-democrats-2020-aeaa3771-f142-4059-b79e-1fed569dfdf9.html

"Top Democrats are circulating a poll showing that one of the House's most progressive members — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — has become a definitional face for the party with a crucial group of swing voters.

Why it matters: These Democrats are sounding the alarm that swing voters know and dislike socialism, warning it could cost them the House and the presidency. The poll is making the rounds of some of the most influential Democrats in America."

The findings:

Ocasio-Cortez was recognized by 74% of voters in the poll; 22% had a favorable view.
Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota — another member of The Squad — was recognized by 53% of the voters; 9% (not a typo) had a favorable view.

Some Americans really need to be educated about what socialism actually is but the propoganda that is shoved down their throat does nothing to help

Eh the pertinent thing is that it's being circulated by the people it affects most. If they think it's worthwhile, why shouldn't someone else not involved.

Penn

kilns wrote: »

Some Americans really need to be educated about what socialism actually is but the propoganda that is shoved down their throat does nothing to help

Not just Americans themselves, but even Trump's fans abroad just parrot buzzwords in the hopes they'll stick without even knowing what they're talking about.

Case in point this caller to James O'Brien yesterday defending Trump's tweets and saying they're not racist.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/trump-caller-hilariously-falls-apart-questions/

StringerBell

Igotadose wrote: »

In other interesting news, one-time Trump head of the voter fraud commission and well-known tGOP vote suppressor Kris Kobach, got schooled by Chris Cuomo in an interview on CNN. When asked directly if, hypothetically, Trump said "I am a racist" would Kobach still endorse him, Kobach refused to answer. Cuomo pointed out that Trump also only ever says, "I am the least racist." Not he's not a racist, just that there's some measure of racism and he's the least.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kris-kobach-donald-trump-racist_n_5d2e7fa5e4b0a873f6436efc

It actually got even worse, him clarifying what he meant in this hypothetical was that he would have to see who Trump was running against to decide whether he would still support him or not......

mayordenis

peddlelies wrote: »

How do you reckon they'd score on the anti-Semitism meter?

Oh and btw, how often has Cortez and her ilk tried to shame "old white men". Last time I checked making a judgement on someone based on skin colour is racism.

Seems to be a talking point, but what has AOC said that is anti-semitic?

peddlelies

kilns wrote: »

Some Americans really need to be educated about what socialism actually is but the propoganda that is shoved down their throat does nothing to help

Maybe non crazy propositions would be a better way of going about it instead of talking about farting cows, getting rid of aeroplanes and giving money to those who can't be bothered working? Focusing on healthcare and education ideals would garner a lot of support, but she and the others didn't do that.

The "green new deal" didn't get a single yes vote in the senate. Most Democrats voted present but some voted nay. Why is that, do you think? I think the answer is obvious.

StringerBell

Danzy wrote: »

Trump's only aim was to force the Democratic Party to get behind the Squad and to make them the face of the Democrats.

He has succeeded in that, with just a few tweets.

Pelosi must be bucking with anger, she was trying to insulate the party from them, no chance now.

It also makes these 4 more important than most of the nominees, the telegenic loony wing, who the electorate really dislike.

Biden Harris,Sanders must be raging that so much attention is given to them as well. They know it will cost them votes.

Trump will do or say anything to increase the Squads profile and make the Democrats publicly rally around them.

This will be the first of many spats he'll engineer between them, the only thing he'll ask is what will get them on the news and raise their profile.

I truly do understand why you want that to be the case, really I do. It ties together a rambling idiots stream of consciousness into something that resembles logic, a strategy even.

However, in the words of a wise man. "You want it to be one way, but its the other way"

Just think about your own hypothesis for a while, game it out to its conclusion. It sounds alright on the surface I'm sure, but dig a little bit and see what you find.

kilns

peddlelies wrote: »

Maybe non crazy propositions would be a better way of going about it instead of talking about farting cows, getting rid of aeroplanes and giving money to those who can't be bothered working? Focusing on healthcare and education ideals would garner a lot of support, but she and the others didn't do that.

The "green new deal" didn't get a single yes vote in the senate. Most Democrats voted present but some voted nay. Why is that, do you think? I think the answer is obvious.

Americans have been scared of their life of the word "socialism" long before the green deal came about.

Penn

StringerBell wrote: »

I truly do understand why you want that to be the case, really I do. It ties together a rambling idiots stream of consciousness into something that resembles logic, a strategy even.

However, in the words of a wise man. "You want it to be one way, but its the other way"

Just think about your own hypothesis for a while, game it out to its conclusion. It sounds alright on the surface I'm sure, but dig a little bit and see what you find.

I agree. Even if we take it that that's Trump's big plan, by the time the Democratic Nominee is chosen "The Squad" (I really hope that doesn't become a thing) will not be the face of the Democratic Party; the nominee will. The nominee will take all the focus and the four congresswomen will be thrown way back into the distance. Even Pelosi herself will become a less prominent figure. It will all be about the nominee.

So Trump going after these four congresswomen a) is largely a moot tactic by itself as none of them are even running as a nominee (if they're even eligible to do so which I don't think some of them are), b) will be made all the more irrelevant when the nominee is chosen as Trump will likely struggle to link them back to AOC et al, and c) Trump has gone after them in the worst way possible and in a way that won't hurt him with most of his base, but is getting him attacked on all sides from almost everywhere else.

peddlelies

mayordenis wrote: »

Seems to be a talking point, but what has AOC said that is anti-semitic?

I referred to the plural, talking about "the squad".

Cortez hasn't done much besides praising people like Jeremy Corbyn.

Omar has tweeted things like this “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.”

Tlaib claimed Jewish US citizens have a duel loyalty and that the Jews control certain politicians.

Now that I think about it in general terms, known anti Semites, a murderer and terrorist were leading those anti-Trump Women marches.

peddlelies

kilns wrote: »

Americans have been scared of their life of the word "socialism" long before the green deal came about.

Definitely, but releasing a proposal draft with the line "economic security to all those who are unable or unwilling to work" then lying about it and claiming Republicans doctored the document isn't the best way of going about change is it?

duploelabs

peddlelies wrote: »

I referred to the plural, talking about "the squad".

Cortez hasn't done much besides praising people like Jeremy Corbyn.

Omar has tweeted things like this “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.”

Tlaib claimed Jewish US citizens have a duel loyalty and that the Jews control certain politicians.

Perhaps this point is for a different thread, but just because someone criticises the Israeli state and actions doesn't make them anti-semetic

kilns

duploelabs wrote: »

Perhaps this point is for a different thread, but just because someone criticises the Israeli state and actions doesn't make them anti-semetic

The Republicans have weaponised Israel and anti-semiticism, there should be no issue criticising any extreme government no matter where it is.

everlast75

Trump being classed definitively as racist, whilst being the current President of the US is more dangerous and indeed important ,than 4 junior, freshmen Democrats.

Very simple.

peddlelies

duploelabs wrote: »

Perhaps this point is for a different thread, but just because someone criticises the Israeli state and actions doesn't make them anti-semetic

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

everlast75

kilns wrote: »

The Republicans have weaponised Israel and anti-semiticism, there should be no issue criticising any extreme government no matter where it is.

How does that match up with Trump refusing to condemn the Charlottesville marches where the tiki torch brigade were chanting "the jews shall not replace us", or the anti George Soros stuff?

ancapailldorcha

peddlelies wrote: »

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

That's highly disingenuous. Not all Jews are Israeli and the current Israeli regime in no way speaks for all Jews. It sounds to me like you're trying to poison the well here to be honest regarding Ocasio-Cortez, Omar et al. It's quite transparent and more than a tad pathetic to be honest. By all means, criticize but playing the tired old "Any criticism or Israel whatsoever=antisemitism" card is just tedious at this stage.

weisses

peddlelies wrote: »

I referred to the plural, talking about "the squad".

Cortez hasn't done much besides praising people like Jeremy Corbyn.

Omar has tweeted things like this “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.”

AFAIK that is a accurate reflection on what is going on in Israel (gaza) etc. Nothing antisemitic about that right ?

peddlelies wrote: »

Tlaib claimed Jewish US citizens have a duel loyalty and that the Jews control certain politicians.

Again .. not a far fetched stance to have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/11/ilhan-omar-israel-lobby-documentary/

The (you are antisemitic) card is thrown out way to often

peddlelies

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're trying to poison the well here to be honest regarding Ocasio-Cortez, Omar et al. It's quite transparent and more than a tad pathetic to be honest.

Having a different opinion is pathetic is it? I'm sure you'll get plenty of thanks for that post.

I don't need to say a thing, the poll numbers are there for all to see in black and white. The overwhelming majority of Americans have negative views on people like Cortez and Omar.

Fact.