Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

Dytalus

peddlelies wrote: »

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

Could easily say the same thing about the US. Is that somehow anti-white (chosen because the majority of its high-ranking politicians are such)? Would I be anti-Irish for criticizing the actions of the Irish government?

The key point comes in whether you are criticizing the state for its actions, or for its ethnic/religious makeup. With Israel the line is admittedly heavily blurred - it's pretty monocultural when compared to, say, the US. If one were to imply Israel acts horribly because it is a Jewish state would be anti-semitic. Implying Israel acts horribly because of militarism/oppression of palestinians/[insert political reason] is not.

Note: I'm using the word 'horribly' to illustrate the point, not as a personal reflection on Israel. I very much do not want to get into a debate on that subject here, where it is off-topic. Nor ever, for that matter.

frag420

peddlelies wrote: »

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

I am not sure you understand what Anti-Semitic means?

Criticising a country for their foreign and internal policies is not anit-semetic and you know this!

Now shouting "Jews will not replace us" sounds anti jewish and dare I say it...anti-semetic but hey, great people on both sides yeah!!

pixelburp

Wasn't there a post a while back saying that most polls indicated Congress & its members is unpopular across the board anyway? Would be nice to see a cross-section of polling for various members and the house itself because I'm not sure these "AOC is unpoular, look at the polls" tells the full story.

ancapailldorcha

peddlelies wrote: »

Having a different opinion is pathetic is it? I'm sure you'll get plenty of thanks for that post.

I never said this and well you know it.

frag420

kilns wrote: »

Some Americans really need to be educated about what socialism actually is but the propoganda that is shoved down their throat does nothing to help

Like this guy...https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/trump-caller-hilariously-falls-apart-questions/


Sorry for the media dump but I feel this person sums up Mericans and their understanding of socialism
(I know he is British)

is_that_so

rossie1977 wrote: »

Disagree. Cost of healthcare, education, jobs and wages are all issues that effect voters in swing states especially the rust belt. More chance those voters would choose someone they can relate to over a billionaire who lives in a gold tower or an affluent prosecutor from the bay area.

Ah but will the Dems choose a candidate they can relate to?

is_that_so

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump being classed definitively as racist, whilst being the current President of the US is more dangerous and indeed important ,than 4 junior, freshmen Democrats.

Very simple.

It is but he says he's not racist and he is the President! Some people will accept both of those things.

Danzy

robinph wrote: »

Shock biased poll results found from biased poll:

Well you can hardly be surprised that the white working class would have a low opinion of Cortez and the Squad, you quoted their race etc.

There are other polls that show nearly every other category having no time for her.

That matters as more than just young ivy league whites have the vote.

peddlelies

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never said this and well you know it.

If I was purposely being deceitful then why did Nancy Pelosi a few months ago force Omar to apologise over her statements?

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/693480995/house-democrats-urge-party-leaders-to-condemn-anti-semitism?t=1563374198356

""We are and will always be strong supporters of Israel in Congress because we understand that our support is based on shared values and strategic interests. Legitimate criticism of Israel's policies is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate that the United States and Israel share. But Congresswoman Omar's use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel's supporters is deeply offensive. We condemn these remarks and we call upon Congresswoman Omar to immediately apologize for these hurtful comments."

ancapailldorcha

peddlelies wrote: »

If I was purposely being deceitful then why did Nancy Pelosi a few months ago force Omar to apologise over her statements?

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/693480995/house-democrats-urge-party-leaders-to-condemn-anti-semitism?t=1563374198356

""We are and will always be strong supporters of Israel in Congress because we understand that our support is based on shared values and strategic interests. Legitimate criticism of Israel's policies is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate that the United States and Israel share. But Congresswoman Omar's use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel's supporters is deeply offensive. We condemn these remarks and we call upon Congresswoman Omar to immediately apologize for these hurtful comments."

You claimed that I stated that having a different opinion is pathetic. I did not say this.

peddlelies

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You claimed that I stated that having a different opinion is pathetic. I did not say this.

It sounds to me like you're trying to poison the well here to be honest regarding Ocasio-Cortez, Omar et al. It's quite transparent and more than a tad pathetic to be honest. By all means, criticize but playing the tired old "Any criticism or Israel whatsoever=antisemitism" card is just tedious at this stage.

So it's the way I'm going about it, that's pathetic, what way would you prefer I criticize them?

Should I just not mention them at all, would that suit better?

ancapailldorcha

peddlelies wrote: »

So it's the way I'm going about it, that's pathetic? What way would you prefer I criticize them?

Should I just not mention them at all, would that suit better?

That post was a response to you trying to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.

TomOnBoard

peddlelies wrote: »

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

It is anti-Israel, yes... But why/how is it anti-Semitic?

Is it the case that, if a person criticises Israel for its decades long inhumane treatment of Palestinians, they are being anti-Semitic? Think about it- if any thought or speech that decries the mass expulsion of millions of people from their own lands by Israeli policies is considered to be anti-Semitic, then such human rights atrocities as practiced by Israel can/will never be challenged.

rossie1977

Being critical of current Israeli government's actions isn't anti-Semitic. Some of the biggest critics of Netanyahu are actually living in Israel. The more and more Netanyahu moves to the far right and ignores international law the more criticism will come his way.

peddlelies wrote: »

Maybe non crazy propositions would be a better way of going about it instead of talking about farting cows, getting rid of aeroplanes and giving money to those who can't be bothered working? Focusing on healthcare and education ideals would garner a lot of support, but she and the others didn't do that.

The "green new deal" didn't get a single yes vote in the senate. Most Democrats voted present but some voted nay. Why is that, do you think? I think the answer is obvious.

That was protest vote.

Republicans tried to pull a fast one and get issue voted on without any sort of debate etc so Democrats didn't vote on it. There are plenty of senators and non Democratic entities that endorse green deal.

Nothing in green deal suggests elimination of air travel. That's was a Republican talking point. Obviously Green Deal is hugely ambitious and likely couldn't be implemented for another 30 years but it would see huge changes in how the US is run.

peddlelies wrote: »

Having a different opinion is pathetic is it? I'm sure you'll get plenty of thanks for that post.

I don't need to say a thing, the poll numbers are there for all to see in black and white. The overwhelming majority of Americans have negative views on people like Cortez and Omar.

Fact.

Overwhelming majority of Americans likely don't know who AOC and certainly don't know who Omar even is. The people who do know would be Fox prime time viewers or those who listen to right wing pundits so obviously would think negatively of her as they are being bombarded 24/7 by how bad/stupid/evil/unamerican she is.

A Dub in Glasgo

peddlelies wrote: »

I don't know about you, but claiming a country has hypnotized the world and we need to stop their evil doings sound pretty anti-Semitic to me.

Any country?

everlast75

is_that_so wrote: »

It is but he says he's not racist and he is the President! Some people will accept both of those things.

And those people are a lost cause. That is what I have said repeatedly.

You are dealing with cognitive dissonance. You cannot rationalise with those people.

If you are saying the 20% fit into that category, then that's a different matter.

peddlelies

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That post was a response to you trying to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.

Nancy Pelosi came to the the conclusion that some of Omar's past statements were anti-semitic.

To deny there's not an anti-semitic segment in the Democrat party is just ignoring reality. Take a look at the Women's march and the people who run it. Some celebrities like Alyssa Milano refuse to attend anymore because of it. Cortez, Omar and that ilk continue to attend and give speeches.

26000 Elephants

peddlelies wrote: »

How do you reckon they'd score on the anti-Semitism meter?

Oh and btw, how often has Cortez and her ilk tried to shame "old white men". Last time I checked making a judgement on someone based on skin colour is racism.

You respond to rape and racism with... antisemitism? Are these crimes just some form of rock-paper-scissors to you? "Child rape TRumps Racism TRumps antisemitism?

But Ill take your point and reply with:

"Anti-Semitism is real," Omar tweeted Monday afternoon, "and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes."

Now, lets see Trump deal with child-rape and racism in a similar manner.


And as for "shaming old white men".... Maybe you are projecting? As a reasonably old white man, I don't feel "shamed" by her at all.

ancapailldorcha

peddlelies wrote: »

Nancy Pelosi came to the the conclusion that some of Omar's past statements were anti-semitic.

To deny there's not an anti-semitic segment in the Democrat party is just ignoring reality. Take a look at the Women's march and the people who run it. Some celebrities like Alyssa Milano refuse to attend anymore because of it, Cortez, Omar and that ilk continue to attend and give speeches.

Maybe so but then the president referred to neo-Nazis as "very fine people" so I'm finding it odd that you don't criticize him with the same zeal that you do these women.

peddlelies

26000 Elephants wrote: »

"Anti-Semitism is real," Omar tweeted Monday afternoon, "and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes."

Now, lets see Trump deal with child-rape and racism in a similar manner.

So if you make a statement after the fact that clears you of all wrongdoing and accountability?

Solid logic there.

everlast75

Hatred of a corrupt government does not mean you are anti-(insert country here).

It works for Israel, or America.

26000 Elephants

peddlelies wrote: »

So if you make a statement after the fact that clears you of all wrongdoing and accountability?

Solid logic there.

So..... you dont like that she apologised for it? And how does an apology impact accountability? Thats patent nonsense and a reflection of the quality of your arguments. The apology itself is a statement of accountability - an alien concept to Trump and his supporters.

Will Trump make similar statements in the context of Epstein and Acosta?
Will Trump make similar statements in the context of his racist remarks against members of Congress?

Danzy

Her comment was very much in line and typical of an old Anti Semitic trope.

Not for the first time either but I think she is probably not.

Careless, bit dogwhistle but that is it at most.

There does not seem to be the same problem with antisemitism as in Labour in Britain.

Nor would it be tolerated in the Dems.

I think the Palestinians have the right to their home and if they assert that on arms I'd not condemn it, not that it would help them.

peddlelies

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Maybe so but then the president referred to neo-Nazis as "very fine people" so I'm finding it odd that you don't criticize him with the same zeal that you do these women.

I'm talking about it because it's in the news at the moment, that's about the gist of it.

As for Trump, he said this in that press conference following the "very fine people" remark.

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

peddlelies

26000 Elephants wrote: »

So..... you dont like that she apologised for it? And how does an apology impact accountability?

I don't care either way, she was forced to do it by the party leader so her words are meaningless.

Will Trump make similar statements in the context of Epstein and Acosta?
Will Trump make similar statements in the context of his racist remarks against members of Congress?

I don't know how to answer your questions satisfactorily, according to you Trump is a child rapist.

RIGOLO

rossie1977 wrote: »

Being critical of current Israeli government's actions isn't anti-Semitic. Some of the biggest critics of Netanyahu are actually living in Israel. The more and more Netanyahu moves to the far right and ignores international law the more criticism will come his way.


That was protest vote.

Republicans tried to pull a fast one and get issue voted on without any sort of debate etc so Democrats didn't vote on it. There are plenty of senators and non Democratic entities that endorse green deal.

Nothing in green deal suggests elimination of air travel. That's was a Republican talking point. Obviously Green Deal is hugely ambitious and likely couldn't be implemented for another 30 years but it would see huge changes in how the US is run.



Overwhelming majority of Americans likely don't know who AOC and certainly don't know who Omar even is. The people who do know would be Fox prime time viewers or those who listen to right wing pundits so obviously would think negatively of her as they are being bombarded 24/7 by how bad/stupid/evil/unamerican she is.

so now the anti-Trumpers claim that bringing a bill to the floor and having an open democratic vote on it is pulling a fast one.

Since when is allowing a vote on something " A FAST ONE "

And then to claim plenty of Senators support it, is an even further stretch.

THERE WERE 0 ZERO SENATORS VOTED FOR THE GREEN NEW DEAL

ZERO ... and you claim many Senators support it ...

Is this a new Democrat and anti-Trump position on voting practice?
Allowing a vote to take place is a fast one and not voting for something means we support it.

Danzy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Maybe so but then the president referred to neo-Nazis as "very fine people" so I'm finding it odd that you don't criticize him with the same zeal that you do these women.

That isn't true though.

He grouped the Antifa/Nazi types in one group, put like with like.

The non Nazis and the protesters who wouldn't be ANTIFA totalitarian were on the other side.

ancapailldorcha

Danzy wrote: »

That isn't true though.

He grouped the Antifa/Nazi types in one group, put like with like.

The non Nazis and the protesters who wouldn't be ANTIFA totalitarian were on the other side.

He said that there were very fine people on both sides. That's quite clear to me.

Danzy

rossie1977 wrote: »

Nothing in green deal suggests elimination of air travel. That's was a Republican talking point. Obviously Green Deal is hugely ambitious and likely couldn't be implemented for another 30 years but it would see huge changes in how the US is run.

Even in 30 years it probably would not be implementable.

Lot of it was good stuff but as you say most was for 30 years in to never, never.

In a way it was a cop out.

is_that_so

RIGOLO wrote: »

so now the anti-Trumpers claim that bringing a bill to the floor and having an open democratic vote on it is pulling a fast one.

Since when is allowing a vote on something " A FAST ONE "

And then to claim plenty of Senators support it, is an even further stretch.

THERE WERE 0 ZERO SENATORS VOTED FOR THE GREEN NEW DEAL

ZERO ... and you claim many Senators support it ...

Is this a new Democrat and anti-Trump position on voting practice?
Allowing a vote to take place is a fast one and not voting for something means we support it.

Almost all of the Dem Senators voted "present" as they complained McConnell was looking to get their yea or nay on a non-binding vote to be recorded for use in the 2020 campaign.