Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

Leroy42

peddlelies wrote: »

I do, anything he says in that manner is a strategy or guise to rattle up the electorate, classic "Us against the rest".

By all accounts on the night of the 2016 election, Trump had resigned himself to having left everything on the play field and if he loses so be it.

The day he does something insane like refusing to hand over power then the cries of fascist will be meaningful, until now though it's all hot air.

But the problem is not Trump himself. As you and others have said he will be forced out if needs be.

But the real issue is the effect it has on democracy. Trump will happily, and has, demeaned the entire process on the chance he doesn't win. So even if he does leave, he will have riled up his supporters to believe that the new POTUS is illegitimate and therefore should do everything to get rid of them.

Think McConnell in 2008 regarding Obama (or was that 2012?) but widespread across the country.

Penn

Leroy42 wrote: »

Exactly. He claimed there was widespread voter fraud in 2016 in an attempt to try to make people believe he had won the popular vote.

He was claiming prior to the election that he wouldn't accept the result.

Are people really trying to claim that he will simply accept a defeat in 2020? All the evidence is that Trump is prepared to do whatever he needs to do with get what he wants. If even wrote about it in his book.

The thing is though, if Barr and the Senate can do enough before the election to end any investigations into Trump and his family, Trump'll walk from the office gladly imo. He'd stand to enrich himself further, with less oversight, and go back to complaining/tweeting without consequence and so much of a spotlight on him and his family, but still retaining enough of a spotlight so build up the Trump brand.

The idea of Trump trying to cling on to power is only based on what the Dems might do if they take the Senate and Presidency. If the GOP/DOJ can do enough to cut the legs out from the Dems if they were to take power, Trump would have little reason to try hold on. Leave, but claim the election was rigged, he really won etc. He might not leave gracefully (doing anything gracefully would be out of character), but he'd leave.

Stallingrad

Time to unfollow for a while, not just this thread but the whole US fiasco. "Send her back", actually makes me feel sick to hear that coming from a country once so highly regarded. The man has trashed the reputation and credibility of the US, all to make himself feel good, will it ever recover?

The tit for tat here has also become tiresome, every day is like Groundhog day.

Maybe see you all down the line.

peddlelies

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the real issue is the effect it has on democracy. Trump will happily, and has, demeaned the entire process on the chance he doesn't win. So even if he does leave, he will have riled up his supporters to believe that the new POTUS is illegitimate and therefore should do everything to get rid of them.

For two years he was called a puppet and Russian asset when there was no real weight behind it, doesn't that demean the Presidency too? It's a bit hypocritical imo to suggest a hypothetical when it's already happened on the other side.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Chips Lovell wrote: »

We've had to sanction four different people since this mod warning was posted yesterday evening.

If you can't post in a civil and constructive fashion, take it elsewhere.

Thanks

Now up to six people. If you want to flame each other, take it elsewhere.

Leroy42

Penn wrote: »

The thing is though, if Barr and the Senate can do enough before the election to end any investigations into Trump and his family, Trump'll walk from the office gladly imo. He'd stand to enrich himself further, with less oversight, and go back to complaining/tweeting without consequence and so much of a spotlight on him and his family, but still retaining enough of a spotlight so build up the Trump brand.

The idea of Trump trying to cling on to power is only based on what the Dems might do if they take the Senate and Presidency. If the GOP/DOJ can do enough to cut the legs out from the Dems if they were to take power, Trump would have little reason to try hold on. Leave, but claim the election was rigged, he really won etc. He might not leave gracefully (doing anything gracefully would be out of character), but he'd leave.

No it is not. It is based on his claims in 2016 that the entire process was biased and rigged. It is based on his claims that the media all all biased and "Fake News".

It is based on his continuing refusing to adhere to previous norms. It is based on his actions to go against the law in order to protect himself. It is based on him stacking the courts with judges he prefers.

It is based on him breaking rules on family members, divesting in his business. It is based on him refusing to release tax returns. It is based on him siding with Putin rather than accept reality. It is based on the fact that the GOP are 100% full square behind him.

It is based on him saying it himself.

Leroy42

peddlelies wrote: »

For two years he was called a puppet and Russian asset when there was no real weight behind it, doesn't that demean the Presidency too? It's a bit hypocritical imo to suggest a hypothetical when it's already happened on the other side.

He sided with Putin against his won security services. Why he did that is still not clear, but he either hates America or he is a puppet of Putin.

Which one do you think it is?

Why do you think he threw his own security services under the bus? And let us not forgot he gave up an Israeli operative to the Russians.

marno21

peddlelies wrote: »

For two years he was called a puppet and Russian asset when there was no real weight behind it, doesn't that demean the Presidency too? It's a bit hypocritical imo to suggest a hypothetical when it's already happened on the other side.

He is a Russian asset. Whether he knows it or is complicit himself

Russia’s entire military spending in their history couldn’t do to the US what this man has done to the place. If it continues on this road, by the time him and some of the other Republicans have guttered the place those Facebook ads will have more than paid off

Danzy

marno21 wrote: »

He is a Russian asset. Whether he knows it or is complicit himself

Russia’s entire military spending in their history couldn’t do to the US what this man has done to the place. If it continues on this road, by the time him and some of the other Republicans have guttered the place those Facebook ads will have more than paid off

Russia are the new Jews, it seems.

Controlling the levers of the world.

batgoat

Danzy wrote: »

Russia are the new Jews, it seems.

Controlling the levers of the world.

Is it or is it not a fact that Russia actively made an effort to get Trump elected? Through a campaign of disinformation that resulted in numerous people being arrested.

Penn

Leroy42 wrote: »

No it is not. It is based on his claims in 2016 that the entire process was biased and rigged. It is based on his claims that the media all all biased and "Fake News".

It is based on his continuing refusing to adhere to previous norms. It is based on his actions to go against the law in order to protect himself. It is based on him stacking the courts with judges he prefers.

It is based on him breaking rules on family members, divesting in his business. It is based on him refusing to release tax returns. It is based on him siding with Putin rather than accept reality. It is based on the fact that the GOP are 100% full square behind him.

It is based on him saying it himself.

He said a lot of things; he'd be tougher on Russia than anyone, he'd drain the swamp, he'd lock her up etc.

What Trump says and does are always two different things. Saying he wouldn't leave the office doesn't mean he won't. Logically, the only reason for him to actually try to fight and stay in office is to protect himself legally from any crimes he can't currently be charged with. While he might say he wants to stay as President and won't give up the office etc, I genuinely think he'd love nothing more than to walk. He wouldn't want to be President if the Dems took the Senate because he'd have no hope of doing anything. Even if the GOP retained the Senate but he lost the Presidency trying to fight to stay as President wouldn't be a fight he could win (nor do I think it'd be a fight the GOP would want to support him on so long as they still controlled the Senate and could block anything the next Dem President would do).

If Trump had a way out without the Dems coming after him for legal matters, I think Trump would take it. He'd rather sling sh*t from the sidelines and complain about an unfair election than cling to the office in the middle of a sh*tstorm and be genuinely an illegitimate president.

hill16bhoy

Danzy wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Trump will not leave on the day his term ends is delusional or at the least wilful in it, as it gives an edge of excitement.

In all honesty do you believe there is any scenario in which he'll be in the White House after his term ends.

No, course not.

Oh, if he is beaten in 2020, I'd say he'll try to whatever he can to refuse to recognise the result and stay in office.

Whether he would be successful or not is an entirely different matter.

But having observed his behaviour for years, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't think he'd try to hold on should he lose. It would entirely consistent with his behavioural patterns.

The real point is, he's going to do everything in his power to make sure that he doesn't lose the 2020 election, and that means voter suppression efforts like we've never seen before, it means mass propaganda and demonisation of opponents like we've never seen before, and it very likely means serious attempts to hack the actual election system itself to falsify results.

And one would be very naive indeed to think these efforts might not succeed.

If he gets a second term and is still alive in 2024, he'll hand over alright - to his hand picked successor, his daughter, who will attempt to put a sheen of "femisinism" on fascist kleptocracy. Orwellian indeed.

Last Call

Trump wanting Omar killed might sound ridiculous until you remember his thinly veiled threat to Hilary Clinton at a rally in 2016 ‘If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks,’ he said, adding: ‘Although the second amendment people – maybe there is, I don’t know'

He is a psychopath.

hill16bhoy

Danzy wrote: »

Russia are the new Jews, it seems.

Controlling the levers of the world.

Is there any end to these oh so transparent and disingenuous deflection efforts?

In terms of people who actually do think "the Jews control the levers of the world", have a look inwards at your hero Trump and his supporters.

Trumpism is dripping in this shamelessly anti-Semitic conspiracy nonsense.

Trump has shamelessly invoked anti-Semitic stereotypes himself to this effect.

Remember the Star of David on the picture of Hillary Clinton with "most corrupt candidate ever" written inside it?

A shameless anti-Semitic trope if ever there was one.

As is the regular anti-Semitic catch cry of "Soros".

Nazis are "very fine people"? Do you think that's anti-Semitic, per chance?

The Republican party is utterly shot through with real, venomous, incredibly dangerous anti-Semitism. Christ, they even ran an actual Nazi to run for the House last November.

And we saw the consequences of this in Pittsburgh last October when a right-wing racist massacred 11 Jews at a synagogue.

Keep burying your head in the sand about Russia's nefarious activities by all means, by the way.

Another all-encompassing cult of a Glorious Leader.

peddlelies

Leroy42 wrote: »

He sided with Putin against his won security services. Why he did that is still not clear, but he either hates America or he is a puppet of Putin.

Which one do you think it is?

Why do you think he threw his own security services under the bus? And let us not forgot he gave up an Israeli operative to the Russians.

Not wanting conflict with a nuclear superpower would be part of it. He's behaved in the same manner towards Kim and others.

You can make the argument that he shouldn't be behaving in that way, and I would agree with you, but I don't believe there was an actual connection between Trump and Putin and neither did Robert Mueller.

Stop moaning ffs

peddlelies wrote: »

Not wanting conflict with a nuclear superpower would be part of it. He's behaved in the same manner towards Kim and others.

You can make the argument that he shouldn't be behaving in that way, and I would agree with you, but I don't believe there was a legitimate connection between Trump and Putin and neither did Robert Mueller.

There’s mountains of proof he was dealing with Russia. Up to and including giving Putin two floors in trump tower Moscow


Yeah but no collusion. Sure.

hill16bhoy

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Oh, if he is beaten in 2020, I'd say he'll try to whatever he can to refuse to recognise the result and stay in office.

Whether he would be successful or not is an entirely different matter.

But having observed his behaviour for years, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't think he'd try to hold on should he lose. It would entirely consistent with his behavioural patterns.

The real point is, he's going to do everything in his power to make sure that he doesn't lose the 2020 election, and that means voter suppression efforts like we've never seen before, it means mass propaganda and demonisation of opponents like we've never seen before, and it very likely means serious attempts to hack the actual election system itself to falsify results.

And one would be very naive indeed to think these efforts might not succeed.

If he gets a second term and is still alive in 2024, he'll hand over alright - to his hand picked successor, his daughter, who will attempt to put a sheen of "femisinism" on fascist kleptocracy. Orwellian indeed.

You're clearly setting yourself up to not recognise the result by including falsified results. Even going so far as to call others naive for not being as paranoid.

Do you believe there is any chance that he can win legitimately? Or would any win be the result of some fraud?

peddlelies

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

There’s mountains of proof he was dealing with Russia. Up to and including giving Putin two floors in trump tower Moscow


Yeah but no collusion. Sure.

I'm talking solely about the 2016 election. Not a single American was charged with anything to do with Russia, whether that was conspiracy or blackmail or whatever else. Those are the facts.

If Joe Biden wins the nomination and given his ties to China if they start dumping information on Trump will you hold him to the same standard? That's he's a traitor.

There was an almost three year investigation, people were thrown in jail, bankrupted and had their lives destroyed, yet nothing was found. At some point you have to let it go.

everlast75

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you believe there is any chance that he can win legitimately? Or would any win be the result of some fraud?

You mean, another fraud?

At the risk of repeating myself, he directed his personal lawyer to make payments to 2 women, to the tune of nearly a quarter of a million dollars, through Trump Inc with cheques signed by the CFO and Donny Snr, in order to cover up affairs so that they would not become public before an election. His personal lawyer was sentenced for that. Trump was Individual 1. That is a felony. You can try minimise that if you want to, however Rudy on Fox News said that their release would have been critical - "Can you imagine what would have happened if those stories broke? Michael was doing his job"

Trump is guilty of a felony. He is protected from that charge by reason of his position.

Coupled with that;

His Campaign Chair shared polling data with a Russian Intelligence Agency in relation to 3 crucial swing states.

His long time friend is awaiting trial for his links with Assange, regarding the release of stolen emails from the DNC and their release at a specific time.

His friend Pecker had a concerted campaign to discredit Clinton.

His son met with a Russian Lawyer promising dirt on Clinton and then lied to cover it all up.

Trump ran interference for Russia when people accused them of interfering with the election.

All of the above is true.

You can chose to dismiss the above as "what it takes to win" if you want. However, if the roles were reversed and Clinton did that, what would you think?

everlast75

peddlelies wrote: »

I'm talking solely about the 2016 election. Not a single American was charged with anything to do with Russia, whether that was conspiracy or blackmail or whatever else. Those are the facts.

If Joe Biden wins the nomination and given his ties to China if they start dumping information on Trump will you hold him to the same standard? That's he's a traitor.

There was an almost three year investigation, people were thrown in jail, bankrupted and had their lives destroyed, yet nothing was found. At some point you have to let it go.

You are living up to your username now.

There was evidence of a conspiracy. There was not enough evidence to bring charges, for reasons which include that Donny Junior didn't know what he was doing was illegal, one of those rare occasions of where ignorance of the law is an excuse.

There was also a massive counter-intelligence investigation launched, which no one knows anything about. Schiff was not even briefed for over a year about it.

The people in jail were found guilty. Do you have a problem with that?

hill16bhoy

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

There’s mountains of proof he was dealing with Russia. Up to and including giving Putin two floors in trump tower Moscow


Yeah but no collusion. Sure.

And an open invitation to Russia to hack the 2020 election.

Believe the fascists when they say things.

It's never a joke.

Take them seriously, and literally.

This isn't a clown car, it's a serious, wide ranging and concerted attempt to destroy not just US democracy, but democracy everywhere.

Trump answers to Putin, but the question is why he answers to Putin. It's because this is an international alliance of kleptocrats which aims to control of as much wealth as it possibly can, and Trump and his family stand to get rich beyond anybody's wildest dreams. Putin already has. There is little doubt that Trump is deeply in hock to Russian mafia and therefore the Russian state, as Russia is effectively a mafia state.

Look at how the Saudis, Netanyahu in Israel, Erdogan in Turkey, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Orban in Hungary and Duterte in thee Philippines operate. Nepotism, despotism, corruption, demonisation of opponents, clampdowns on freedoms and countries ruled like these leaders' own personal fiefdoms.

And all are on extremely friendly terms with each other.

Geopolitically, smashing international alliances favours big countries with lots of natural resources. Destroying international bodies such as the EU which give small countries a voice, is paramount to allowing both Russia and the US to throw their full weight around on the international stage.

An international system in which supra-national co-operation is killed off, and fascist or quasi-fascist Russia and the US get to throw their full weight around with the help of their friends and bully small countries with the help of tinpot quasi-dictators in smaller countries who run their own mini-kleptocracies, is the ultimate goal.

Britain after Brexit will be an early test case of this as the US pushes for a trade deal which exploits Britain's lack of bargaining power, and decimates their economy. But those in British politics like Johnson, Farage, Rees Mogg and Banks who have cheerled all this will be laughing, because they stand to lose nothing and gain everything.

Stop moaning ffs

peddlelies wrote: »

I'm talking solely about the 2016 election. Not a single American was charged with anything to do with Russia, whether that was conspiracy or blackmail or whatever else. Those are the facts.

If Joe Biden wins the nomination and given his ties to China if they start dumping information on Trump will you hold him to the same standard? That's he's a traitor.

There was an almost three year investigation, people were thrown in jail, bankrupted and had their lives destroyed, yet nothing was found. At some point you have to let it go.

Everything there except the silver bullet.
But how much proof do you need and how much proof can you ignore? Is the thing.

Harry Palmr

Stallingrad wrote: »

Time to unfollow for a while, not just this thread but the whole US fiasco. "Send her back", actually makes me feel sick to hear that coming from a country once so highly regarded. The man has trashed the reputation and credibility of the US, all to make himself feel good, will it ever recover?

The tit for tat here has also become tiresome, every day is like Groundhog day.

Maybe see you all down the line.

I'm now expecting a MAGA cap wearing goon to try and kill one or more of "the Squad" or someone on the nutty radical left to try to kill Trump. I think it's not question of whether it'll happen only when and to which.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

You are living up to your username now.

Just to confirm, are you calling him a liar?

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

You mean, another fraud?

I'm asking another poster a personal question. If you ever want me to reply to your posts, make them shorter, or at least proof-read them and remove all the excess.

peddlelies

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Everything there except the silver bullet.
But how much proof do you need and how much proof can you ignore? Is the thing.

I haven't seen any proof there was co-ordination between the Trump campaign and Russia in regards to hacking the DNC and disseminating the emails, and I haven't seen any proof the campaign assisted with the social media campaigns. I haven't seen any proof Trump was being blackmailed by Russia.

They threw the book at his campaign and associates, checked every email and phone call, it there was something substantial there they would have found it. The only other view on it is that Trump is a criminal mastermind, and nobody believes that.

Trump was friendly with Russia and they helped him to win the election, I'm not denying that at all. Imo these things go on all the time with geopolitical allies and enemies, look at the DNC and Ukraine. I'm denying that the campaign was substantially involved with what went on. Politics is a dirty game, we probably don't get to see 90% of what happens behind closed doors.

everlast75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just to confirm, are you calling him a liar?

I'm asking another poster a question. If you ever want me to reply to your posts, keep them relevant to the topic at hand.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

I'm asking another poster a question. If you ever want me to reply to your posts, keep them relevant to the topic at hand.

Ironic that in my question about 2020, you went on a rant about 2016. Not very relevant.

Anyways, you called him a liar. I just wanted you to confirm it.

hill16bhoy

Deleted User wrote: »

You're clearly setting yourself up to not recognise the result by including falsified results. Even going so far as to call others naive for not being as paranoid.

Do you believe there is any chance that he can win legitimately? Or would any win be the result of some fraud?

A lot of projection in that post, given that it was Trump who threatened to not accept the result last time had he lost, and threatens to do the same again this time should he lose - which is why I fully expect him to try andd utilise every nefarious means possible to prevent him losing.

There is a chance Trump could win legitimately, most likely by following the same route as last time by getting millions of votes less throughout the country but edging key swing states.

When I say "legitimately", that still includes all voter suppression efforts bar actual result falsification via hacking - so the word "legitimately" is very much a misnomer - illegitimacy and disenfranchisement has been built into the voting systems across the US by Republicans.

Democrats exercise it too as regards gerrymandering of congressional districts but in a much smaller number of states than Republicans do.

The point here is that US democracy really is a sham and barely worthy of the name.

The electoral college itself is a sham, electing a single national president of a nation state based on a ridiculous system set up to empower slave states, and in which votes of people in different states do not count equally.

The Republican attempts to disenfranchise people are an utter disgrace.

The attempts to suppress the vote by making people travel long distances and queue for many hours to vote are a disgrace, and aimed pretty much exclusively at people who are likely to vote for a Democrat.

And the election systems themselves are a disgrace. They are non-standardised, many of them use antiquated machines, the ballot is often laid out in a deliberately confusing manner, and they are very likely hackable.

Do you think all, or even any of these things are major issues?

Stop moaning ffs

peddlelies wrote: »

I haven't seen any proof there was co-ordination between the Trump campaign and Russia in regards to hacking the DNC and disseminating the emails, and I haven't seen any proof the campaign assisted with the social media campaigns. I haven't seen any proof Trump was being blackmailed by Russia.

They threw the book at his campaign and associates, checked every email and phone call, it there was something substantial there they would have found it. The only other view on it is that Trump is a criminal mastermind, and nobody believes that.

Trump was friendly with Russia and they helped him to win the election, I'm not denying that at all. Imo these things go on all the time with geopolitical allies and enemies, look at the DNC and Ukraine. I'm denying that the campaign was substantially involved with what went on. Politics is a dirty game, we probably don't get to see 90% of what happens behind closed doors.

Trump just recently said they did get assistance. And that he’d do it again.

He posted this on twitter. Did you miss it?


There’s a massive problem with a US presidential candidate taking assistance from its number one foe.

You know this. Don’t even attempt to normalise it. It doesn’t ‘happen all the time’